Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

www.eupnews.com/2011/04/northern-junior-hockey-watch-chl-vs-ncaa/

Thank you. If these numbers are accurate, and I assume they are, then what I read must have been wrong. In which case, I would really like to know where Eaves and others are getting their statistics.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Thank you. If these numbers are accurate, and I assume they are, then what I read must have been wrong. In which case, I would really like to know where Eaves and others are getting their statistics.

Those numbers appear to be far more accurate than what Eaves was pulling out of his arse....I believe slovofest posted a link which stated that 279 NCAA alums played at least one NHL game back in 09-10. Considering that there must have been close to 1100 players in the NHL (say an average of 35+ players per team), this represents a 25% total...far less than the 1/3rd Eaves was talking about.

Throughout this entire thread, no supporters of the current NCAA rules have been able to justify their positions other than stating opinions that removing the ban on CHL players would hurt USA hockey and change the game for the worse. Others state that they would hate to see "pro" players ruin the integrity of the amature aspect of NCAA hockey.....an utterly laughable opinion based on no sound reason or merit.

One is factual is that the NCAA is losing out on the top talent...as evident by the recent NHL drafts. This was the primary reason that coaches like Berenson and Parker did not want the amature rules changed for NCAA hockey, despite being changed for every other sport. They felt that the top players would bypass college all together if they were allowed to go the CHL route in the 1st place. This has now been happening anyway and will not change in the future.

Allowing CHL players in would greatly enhance the talent pool, especially for the lower end programs, boosting the level of play through-out the NCAA.

 

[BC/HE]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Not sure if this info has been brought up yet but the NHL has a list of drafted players since 1969 and College Hockey was at 11.5%. Since some were drafted while still in HS and some of those went on to college the numbers for actual college participation would be a little higher. Look at the bottom line of this NHL link for the percentages. http://www.nhl.com/ice/page.htm?id=31887

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

There is another factor here as well. The swedish elite league. When the swedes get a whiff that an NCAA school is talking to a recruit, they move him up for a few games, he becomes a pro, and then they send him back down. If the NCAA had an x game rule such that a player could play up for a certain number of games, this monkey business might be avoided. Will it happen? I doubt it, but it might be a good rule to put in.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Those numbers appear to be far more accurate than what Eaves was pulling out of his arse....I believe slovofest posted a link which stated that 279 NCAA alums played at least one NHL game back in 09-10. Considering that there must have been close to 1100 players in the NHL (say an average of 35+ players per team), this represents a 25% total...far less than the 1/3rd Eaves was talking about.

Throughout this entire thread, no supporters of the current NCAA rules have been able to justify their positions other than stating opinions that removing the ban on CHL players would hurt USA hockey and change the game for the worse. Others state that they would hate to see "pro" players ruin the integrity of the amature aspect of NCAA hockey.....an utterly laughable opinion based on no sound reason or merit.

One is factual is that the NCAA is losing out on the top talent...as evident by the recent NHL drafts. This was the primary reason that coaches like Berenson and Parker did not want the amature rules changed for NCAA hockey, despite being changed for every other sport. They felt that the top players would bypass college all together if they were allowed to go the CHL route in the 1st place. This has now been happening anyway and will not change in the future.

Allowing CHL players in would greatly enhance the talent pool, especially for the lower end programs, boosting the level of play through-out the NCAA.

I will answer with a simple stat question. Give me the percent of current NCAA NHL players, (or current raw numbers etc) versus the number of NCAA NHL players from back before the CHL ban. This will show that pre-CHL ban, very few NCAA players got to play in the NHL, but after the ban, the numbers of NCAA players have exploded.

Banning CHL players is clearly the best thing that ever happened to NCAA hockey. Keeping the ban is clearly the best thing NCAA can do for the future of NCAA hockey.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Happy is probably correct -- before 1980 there were very few college hockey players in the NHL. Ken Dryden. Ned Brayden. Tony Esposito.

I did a little unofficial sampling of some teams. The 1979 Chicago Blackhawks roster (3 college players out of 33, 1 Eurpoean); 1978-79 Vancouver (1 college player out of 36, 2 eurpoeans); 1978-79 Flyers (4 college players out of 32 zero europeans); 78-79 Maple Leafs (2 college players out of 28, 2 europoeans); 78-79 Red Wings had 5 college players out of 43, two euproeans.


These are just samples. Compare that with the number of college players in the NHL today (numbers discussed elsewhere in this thread).

BUt I think its dangerous to suppose the the CHL ban made any diffrence, because there is also a an equally low percentage of European players as compared with today's NHL.

The Ban has no effect on European players.

And yet both NCAA and Euopean players made significant inroads to the NHL after 1980 and certainly huge jumps in the 1990s and 2000s.

Why? Was it merely because the NCAA decided to ban CHL players?

Or was it more likely because of some huge changes in the game, namely by a singular force of nature known as Wayne Gretzky and his Edmonton Oiler Machine, which emphasized speed and skill over hitting and grinding. The Oilers, and to a lesser extent the Flames, made the game faster, less rugged. This would be a natural fit for college and european players -- for whom fighting and the rough-stuff would be outside of their skill set. This would lead to an increased interest in the college kids.

Also, the Eastern Bloc was crumbling -- and eventually fell -- allowing access to the flood of European talent. This also assisted in making the game faster, less-rough-and-tumble. Teams like the Red Wings, Oilers, and Canucks dove heavily into the college and European markets. This would lead more interest in the college kids. The Red Wings in the early 1980's scooped up every college free agent they could, approximately 21 players from the NCAA ranks in a four year period leading up to the Jacques Demers hiring. (Adam Oates being the most notable). The NCAA was deemed by Jimmy Develano as a potentially untapped resource and he took his Red Wings into the college ranks with gusto. The Wings were the first NHL team to hire a full-time scout specifically dedicated to college scouting. And this had nothing to do with teh CHL ban and everything to do with the Wings seeing the game changing, and making a organizational wide committment to find faster players regardless of size -- and college hockey is a wonderful place for undersized speed demons and mature playmakers (like Oates). The Oilers and Flames were also organizations which decided to see what the NCAA had to offer, beyond the occassional goalie (Dryden, Espo).

Expansion helped find roster spots, too.

Since the College and European numbers look about the same (a little less for the Euopeans) in my very unofficial 1978-79 review. And sine the numbers of college players and european players are close to the same ratio, at much higher percentages today --- I would submit that the CHL ban had nothing to do with whether more NCAA kids play in the NHL or not.

In fact, I think the exact opposite: the ban on the CHL palyers is prohibiting much top end talent from coming to play college hockey. The NCAA-Players-In-the-NHL numbers would increase dramatically if the CHL ban was dropped.

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

It is interesting how different people view this topic and the consequences of allowing some CHL kids to play NCAA. Face it; the US is now an exporter of hockey talent. US born kids are actually taking CHL roster spots from Canadian kids. Just look at the number of California kids playing in the WHL these days. While some are worried about over-age Canadians taking NCAA roster spots, a case may be made for changing the rule to allow more American kids to play NCAA hockey.

I am not in favor of allowing all CHL players to play NCAA hockey. First, if you sign an NHL contract or receive remuneration from either your CHL team or an NHL team, you are clearly a professional. The Hunter brothers paying for your sister’s college is no different from USC and Reggie Bush. I would also limit eligibility to kids who play in the CHL under 18 (or turn 18 during the season). I am most concerned about the really impressionable young kids (15-17) who are told that they are going to be 6’3, 215 lbs and play in the NHL at age 20. These kids lack the maturity and perspective required to realistically assess the probability of these things happening. What happens when, come draft year, they are only 5’10”, 175 lbs? These young kids (and their parents) also fail to understand just how good, “good” is. I would like to see these kids have an opportunity to play NCAA hockey. If these kids are left to linger in the CHL, even with CIS educational money, they are not likely to obtain a college education. On a 25-man CHL roster only one player is expected to make the NHL and only four are expected to obtain a university degree. At age 18, many will find a university degree more appealing (or necessary) than they did at 15 or 16.

Allowing some of these kids to retain eligibility will probably change college hockey less than many expect. First, with respect to outbound concerns, how many kids are going to be able to find CHL roster spots. Plenty of USHL, high school, and prep school kids have the skill to play major junior hockey, but I am not sure that they would all be able to find places to play in the CHL. I am sure that there must be some pressure on GMs to take the local Canadian kids. Consequently, you are still going to see quality kids electing to stay and play in the states before college. With respect to inbound issues, people are overstating the size of the pool of players that would realistically consider playing NCAA hockey. First, subtract out the kids that are over 18 or that have signed an NHL contract. Next, subtract out the kids who can’t hack it academically or have no interest in attending college (I am willing to guess that this percentage is MUCH greater than it is in the USHL). Lastly, subtract out the Canadian kids who would be happy to stay and play CIS hockey when their CHL days are over (not everyone, after all, wants to “go away” to college). The threat of hordes of Canadians taking roster spots from American kids is thus grossly overstated. Certain schools won’t recruit ex-CHL players anyway due to existing protectionist pressures.

Under such a system, I can imagine that many NHL teams would steer many of their later-round picks (the “project players”) towards NCAA hockey after their draft year. So while we may continue to loose out on the Millers, Murphys or Gibsons, the NCAA will benefit from gaining some less physically mature, skill players.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

It is interesting how different people view this topic and the consequences of allowing some CHL kids to play NCAA. Face it; the US is now an exporter of hockey talent. US born kids are actually taking CHL roster spots from Canadian kids. Just look at the number of California kids playing in the WHL these days. While some are worried about over-age Canadians taking NCAA roster spots, a case may be made for changing the rule to allow more American kids to play NCAA hockey.

I am not in favor of allowing all CHL players to play NCAA hockey. First, if you sign an NHL contract or receive remuneration from either your CHL team or an NHL team, you are clearly a professional. The Hunter brothers paying for your sister’s college is no different from USC and Reggie Bush. I would also limit eligibility to kids who play in the CHL under 18 (or turn 18 during the season). I am most concerned about the really impressionable young kids (15-17) who are told that they are going to be 6’3, 215 lbs and play in the NHL at age 20. These kids lack the maturity and perspective required to realistically assess the probability of these things happening. What happens when, come draft year, they are only 5’10”, 175 lbs? These young kids (and their parents) also fail to understand just how good, “good” is. I would like to see these kids have an opportunity to play NCAA hockey. If these kids are left to linger in the CHL, even with CIS educational money, they are not likely to obtain a college education. On a 25-man CHL roster only one player is expected to make the NHL and only four are expected to obtain a university degree. At age 18, many will find a university degree more appealing (or necessary) than they did at 15 or 16.

Allowing some of these kids to retain eligibility will probably change college hockey less than many expect. First, with respect to outbound concerns, how many kids are going to be able to find CHL roster spots. Plenty of USHL, high school, and prep school kids have the skill to play major junior hockey, but I am not sure that they would all be able to find places to play in the CHL. I am sure that there must be some pressure on GMs to take the local Canadian kids. Consequently, you are still going to see quality kids electing to stay and play in the states before college. With respect to inbound issues, people are overstating the size of the pool of players that would realistically consider playing NCAA hockey. First, subtract out the kids that are over 18 or that have signed an NHL contract. Next, subtract out the kids who can’t hack it academically or have no interest in attending college (I am willing to guess that this percentage is MUCH greater than it is in the USHL). Lastly, subtract out the Canadian kids who would be happy to stay and play CIS hockey when their CHL days are over (not everyone, after all, wants to “go away” to college). The threat of hordes of Canadians taking roster spots from American kids is thus grossly overstated. Certain schools won’t recruit ex-CHL players anyway due to existing protectionist pressures.

Under such a system, I can imagine that many NHL teams would steer many of their later-round picks (the “project players”) towards NCAA hockey after their draft year. So while we may continue to loose out on the Millers, Murphys or Gibsons, the NCAA will benefit from gaining some less physically mature, skill players.

Excellent post.

I think this is the most reasoned posting on this topic. I really like the compromise which would allow players under the age of 18 to still save their NCAA eligibilty. Personally, I think it just increases the number of talented kids who will paly college hockey, and that is a good thing. Furthermore, it address the problem of forcing immature young men (and lets be honest, star-crossed, over-hyped immature parents) from being forced into a premature decision.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Happy is probably correct -- before 1980 there were very few college hockey players in the NHL. Ken Dryden. Ned Brayden. Tony Esposito.

I did a little unofficial sampling of some teams. The 1979 Chicago Blackhawks roster (3 college players out of 33, 1 Eurpoean); 1978-79 Vancouver (1 college player out of 36, 2 eurpoeans); 1978-79 Flyers (4 college players out of 32 zero europeans); 78-79 Maple Leafs (2 college players out of 28, 2 europoeans); 78-79 Red Wings had 5 college players out of 43, two euproeans.


These are just samples. Compare that with the number of college players in the NHL today (numbers discussed elsewhere in this thread).

BUt I think its dangerous to suppose the the CHL ban made any diffrence, because there is also a an equally low percentage of European players as compared with today's NHL.

The Ban has no effect on European players.

And yet both NCAA and Euopean players made significant inroads to the NHL after 1980 and certainly huge jumps in the 1990s and 2000s.

Why? Was it merely because the NCAA decided to ban CHL players?

Or was it more likely because of some huge changes in the game, namely by a singular force of nature known as Wayne Gretzky and his Edmonton Oiler Machine, which emphasized speed and skill over hitting and grinding. The Oilers, and to a lesser extent the Flames, made the game faster, less rugged. This would be a natural fit for college and european players -- for whom fighting and the rough-stuff would be outside of their skill set. This would lead to an increased interest in the college kids.

Also, the Eastern Bloc was crumbling -- and eventually fell -- allowing access to the flood of European talent. This also assisted in making the game faster, less-rough-and-tumble. Teams like the Red Wings, Oilers, and Canucks dove heavily into the college and European markets. This would lead more interest in the college kids. The Red Wings in the early 1980's scooped up every college free agent they could, approximately 21 players from the NCAA ranks in a four year period leading up to the Jacques Demers hiring. (Adam Oates being the most notable). The NCAA was deemed by Jimmy Develano as a potentially untapped resource and he took his Red Wings into the college ranks with gusto. The Wings were the first NHL team to hire a full-time scout specifically dedicated to college scouting. And this had nothing to do with teh CHL ban and everything to do with the Wings seeing the game changing, and making a organizational wide committment to find faster players regardless of size -- and college hockey is a wonderful place for undersized speed demons and mature playmakers (like Oates). The Oilers and Flames were also organizations which decided to see what the NCAA had to offer, beyond the occassional goalie (Dryden, Espo).

Expansion helped find roster spots, too.

Since the College and European numbers look about the same (a little less for the Euopeans) in my very unofficial 1978-79 review. And sine the numbers of college players and european players are close to the same ratio, at much higher percentages today --- I would submit that the CHL ban had nothing to do with whether more NCAA kids play in the NHL or not.

In fact, I think the exact opposite: the ban on the CHL palyers is prohibiting much top end talent from coming to play college hockey. The NCAA-Players-In-the-NHL numbers would increase dramatically if the CHL ban was dropped.

Very rational, well-written, and non-accusatory post. Thank you. While I don't agree with everything you said, you do bring up a lot of good points that have merit. As soon as I have more time, I will respond in more detail with my thoughts, but wanted to thank you for your changed approach to debating this topic

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

It is interesting how different people view this topic and the consequences of allowing some CHL kids to play NCAA. Face it; the US is now an exporter of hockey talent. US born kids are actually taking CHL roster spots from Canadian kids. Just look at the number of California kids playing in the WHL these days. While some are worried about over-age Canadians taking NCAA roster spots, a case may be made for changing the rule to allow more American kids to play NCAA hockey.

I am not in favor of allowing all CHL players to play NCAA hockey. First, if you sign an NHL contract or receive remuneration from either your CHL team or an NHL team, you are clearly a professional. The Hunter brothers paying for your sister’s college is no different from USC and Reggie Bush. I would also limit eligibility to kids who play in the CHL under 18 (or turn 18 during the season). I am most concerned about the really impressionable young kids (15-17) who are told that they are going to be 6’3, 215 lbs and play in the NHL at age 20. These kids lack the maturity and perspective required to realistically assess the probability of these things happening. What happens when, come draft year, they are only 5’10”, 175 lbs? These young kids (and their parents) also fail to understand just how good, “good” is. I would like to see these kids have an opportunity to play NCAA hockey. If these kids are left to linger in the CHL, even with CIS educational money, they are not likely to obtain a college education. On a 25-man CHL roster only one player is expected to make the NHL and only four are expected to obtain a university degree. At age 18, many will find a university degree more appealing (or necessary) than they did at 15 or 16.

Allowing some of these kids to retain eligibility will probably change college hockey less than many expect. First, with respect to outbound concerns, how many kids are going to be able to find CHL roster spots. Plenty of USHL, high school, and prep school kids have the skill to play major junior hockey, but I am not sure that they would all be able to find places to play in the CHL. I am sure that there must be some pressure on GMs to take the local Canadian kids. Consequently, you are still going to see quality kids electing to stay and play in the states before college. With respect to inbound issues, people are overstating the size of the pool of players that would realistically consider playing NCAA hockey. First, subtract out the kids that are over 18 or that have signed an NHL contract. Next, subtract out the kids who can’t hack it academically or have no interest in attending college (I am willing to guess that this percentage is MUCH greater than it is in the USHL). Lastly, subtract out the Canadian kids who would be happy to stay and play CIS hockey when their CHL days are over (not everyone, after all, wants to “go away” to college). The threat of hordes of Canadians taking roster spots from American kids is thus grossly overstated. Certain schools won’t recruit ex-CHL players anyway due to existing protectionist pressures.

Under such a system, I can imagine that many NHL teams would steer many of their later-round picks (the “project players”) towards NCAA hockey after their draft year. So while we may continue to loose out on the Millers, Murphys or Gibsons, the NCAA will benefit from gaining some less physically mature, skill players.

I like a lot of the points you made. I think change will be a lot more palatable if restrictions are placed on the eligability of CHL players instead of just opening the flood gates (and I know one of your points was that it wouldn't be a "flood" of players, but I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it). For instance, I think people would be much more receptive of the kid who played his 16-17 year-old years in the CHL and then wanted to move to the NCAA than they would the kid who played until his eligability in the CHL ran out (regardless of nationality) and then wanted to move to the NCAA.

 

[pinch]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

if you don't ban MJ players, NCAA hockey will look like college basketball. There are already far too many marginal student athletes.... if MJ players could come, rosters would be like a revolving door.....I take it back...it would be worse than college basketball You would have guys leaving all the time for various reasons.

 

[Jacques "Rabbit" Poriveau]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

if you don't ban MJ players, NCAA hockey will look like college basketball. There are already far too many marginal student athletes.... if MJ players could come, rosters would be like a revolving door.....I take it back...it would be worse than college basketball You would have guys leaving all the time for various reasons.

You connecting 2 things that not really connected.

Enforce admissions standards. Period.If the kid come from Boston, Toronto, Detroit, high school, CHL, USHL, Europe, wherever juste enforce da academic standard et you problem go away, eh.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I agree with Rabbit. If schools simply enforce admission standards you won't have the "marginal" student-athletes you sometimes see at football and basketball factories in the NCAA.

Also I don't anticipate a "flood" of CHL grads if you open the doors without restriction. Only around half of North Americans graduate from post-secondary education programs of any kind, so you can then probably assume that at most half the kids in Major Junior would even contemplate NCAA. Then when you start filtering that half for those with good enough grades to get admitted to a university/college, well your pool is going to get a lot smaller again. Then add a socioeconomic filter for the majority of recruits who don't get a "full ride" and will have to fund the rest of their education, well that alone will get a lot of kids to stay in Canada where tuition is $5000-$6000 (or less) per year (and get that covered by the CHL leagues)..

Now take what's left, and restrict it some more by banning kids who signed a NHL contract, played a game in the NHL, played say more than one year of Major Junior, and I think what's left is not a flood but a trickle of Major Junior players coming to the NCAA ... if allowed.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I agree with Rabbit. If schools simply enforce admission standards you won't have the "marginal" student-athletes you sometimes see at football and basketball factories in the NCAA.

Also I don't anticipate a "flood" of CHL grads if you open the doors without restriction. Only around half of North Americans graduate from post-secondary education programs of any kind, so you can then probably assume that at most half the kids in Major Junior would even contemplate NCAA. Then when you start filtering that half for those with good enough grades to get admitted to a university/college, well your pool is going to get a lot smaller again. Then add a socioeconomic filter for the majority of recruits who don't get a "full ride" and will have to fund the rest of their education, well that alone will get a lot of kids to stay in Canada where tuition is $5000-$6000 (or less) per year (and get that covered by the CHL leagues)..

Now take what's left, and restrict it some more by banning kids who signed a NHL contract, played a game in the NHL, played say more than one year of Major Junior, and I think what's left is not a flood but a trickle of Major Junior players coming to the NCAA ... if allowed.

I'm much more comfortable with letting kids who have dabbled in the CHL and then want to move to the NCAA in than I am with kids who have played out their CHL eligability and then want to move on. IMHO, it will be a tough sell without some restrictions.

By the way, way to highlight my "Flood" comment when I already noted that I agreed it wouldn't be a "flood", but couldn't find a better term. My God.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

In fact, I think the exact opposite: the ban on the CHL palyers is prohibiting much top end talent from coming to play college hockey. The NCAA-Players-In-the-NHL numbers would increase dramatically if the CHL ban was dropped.

The top end talent wouldn't be playing in the NCAA regardless of the ban, they would already be in the NHL system. The fact that you can't play in the NCAA until you have completed high school is why much of the top end talent isn't in the NCAA path, by the time they are 18 or 19 the NHL teams want to see how they perform in their system. These teams don't generally draft players in the first or second round with the expectation that they wouldn't be in the AHL until 22 and the NHL by 23. The fact that at by the time that a player is in the sophomore or junior year of HS they can be playing in the CHL which is a direct step to the NHL/AHL is what gives the CHL the advantage.

Removing the restrictions on CHL players would effectively remove any top 3 draft picks from ever playing in the NCAA, it would skill the cream of the players in the NCAA leaving just the lower end players, hurting the overall quality of the NCAA game.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The top end talent wouldn't be playing in the NCAA regardless of the ban, they would already be in the NHL system. The fact that you can't play in the NCAA until you have completed high school is why much of the top end talent isn't in the NCAA path, by the time they are 18 or 19 the NHL teams want to see how they perform in their system. These teams don't generally draft players in the first or second round with the expectation that they wouldn't be in the AHL until 22 and the NHL by 23. The fact that at by the time that a player is in the sophomore or junior year of HS they can be playing in the CHL which is a direct step to the NHL/AHL is what gives the CHL the advantage.

Removing the restrictions on CHL players would effectively remove any top 3 draft picks from ever playing in the NCAA, it would skill the cream of the players in the NCAA leaving just the lower end players, hurting the overall quality of the NCAA game.

I think Toews and Oshie, just two examples, refutes this. If a top-end talented player could play two years in the CHL (or three years, if he starts as an underager at 16) and graduates high school, and at 18 years old is now allowed to enter the NCAA ranks -- I suspect you'd see quite a few players with top end talent moving to the NCAA. Especially those who are not growing as much as projected, or haven't grown, or won't grow to NHL size for several years.

Suddenly, if the CHL ban was lifted, the tables would be turned on the CHL. Why wouldn't a kid paly top-flight juniors in the CHL and then move on to top flight NCAA hockey. Best Junior League. Then get the education and development at the NCAA Level. I beleive you'd see a fair amount of outstanding talent coming to the NCAA. And now what does the CHL do? By allowing kids to play both, even with some caveats and restrictions, the CHL could find itself losing top-end 18-19 year olds to the NCAA, instead of the other way around. The NCAA is a great product with wonderful side benefits (e.g., a college education). But the ban on the CHL is literally preventing the NCAA from being better -- possibly the very best route -- to the NHL.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Now take what's left, and restrict it some more by banning kids who signed a NHL contract, played a game in the NHL, played say more than one year of Major Junior, and I think what's left is not a flood but a trickle of Major Junior players coming to the NCAA ... if allowed.

The real issue is where does one draw the line with respect to CHL experience costing NCAA eligibility. The easiest rule to enforce is the current zero time rule. The larger the eligibility window stays open, the more players who move from the CHL to NCAA system and these will be the lower end players, as the top end players wouldn't want to leave the CHL and stop playing against the other very top players.

Any change the NCAA makes will allow the CHL to get an even tighter grasp on the top level talent: "Join us at (insert CHL team), if after one year you are not happy, you can just go and play for (Insert NCAA team) against the other scrubs. ALL the top end player play in the (Insert CHL league) because if you want to be the best you have to play the best."

The wider the exception is, the larger the flow of upper level players out of and greater the flow of lower level players into the NCAA path.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

if you don't ban MJ players, NCAA hockey will look like college basketball. There are already far too many marginal student athletes.... if MJ players could come, rosters would be like a revolving door.....I take it back...it would be worse than college basketball You would have guys leaving all the time for various reasons.

(Old LSSU joke): how many hockey players does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

Answer: Just one, but he gets three credits for it.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I think Toews and Oshie, just two examples, refutes this. If a top-end talented player could play two years in the CHL (or three years, if he starts as an underager at 16) and graduates high school, and at 18 years old is now allowed to enter the NCAA ranks -- I suspect you'd see quite a few players with top end talent moving to the NCAA. Especially those who are not growing as much as projected, or haven't grown, or won't grow to NHL size for several years.

Suddenly, if the CHL ban was lifted, the tables would be turned on the CHL. Why wouldn't a kid paly top-flight juniors in the CHL and then move on to top flight NCAA hockey. Best Junior League. Then get the education and development at the NCAA Level. I beleive you'd see a fair amount of outstanding talent coming to the NCAA. And now what does the CHL do? By allowing kids to play both, even with some caveats and restrictions, the CHL could find itself losing top-end 18-19 year olds to the NCAA, instead of the other way around. The NCAA is a great product with wonderful side benefits (e.g., a college education). But the ban on the CHL is literally preventing the NCAA from being better -- possibly the very best route -- to the NHL.

I believe that you are completely and utterly wrong. if the CHL is where the best players play, why would they want to leave that league before moving on to the NCAA? If they are excelling in the CHL, why wouldn't they just stay their for another year or two and then move on to the AHL/NHL?

Towes Started at UND at 17, and he only played two years at UND, he was in the NHL by 19. He had to accelerate his education to make that move. The current NCAA players who start at 18, play one or two years and then sign NHL contracts would never play for a NCAA team. as it is the NCAA is full of undrafted and lower round picks, why would the NCAA game improve if the elite players left and were replaced by more players similar to those who already play in the NCAA.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Looking at the thread title, it appears that the CHL has even stolen an E.