Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The top end talent wouldn't be playing in the NCAA regardless of the ban, they would already be in the NHL system. The fact that you can't play in the NCAA until you have completed high school is why much of the top end talent isn't in the NCAA path, by the time they are 18 or 19 the NHL teams want to see how they perform in their system. These teams don't generally draft players in the first or second round with the expectation that they wouldn't be in the AHL until 22 and the NHL by 23. The fact that at by the time that a player is in the sophomore or junior year of HS they can be playing in the CHL which is a direct step to the NHL/AHL is what gives the CHL the advantage.

Removing the restrictions on CHL players would effectively remove any top 3 draft picks from ever playing in the NCAA, it would skill the cream of the players in the NCAA leaving just the lower end players, hurting the overall quality of the NCAA game.

Look at this last month's activity. The top end talent is already abandoning NCAA hockey. I think it is also a mistake to assume that the "lower level" (your words) CHL players will not add skill to and improve the NCAA. The more the NCAA improves, the more high-end talent it will be able to attract. Also, even after a CHL kid is drafted, he can't really get into an NHL team's "system" until he his twenty (when he becomes eligible to play in the AHL). Until that point his options are the big club or the CHL. Just how fast is that fast track, really? In addition, you shouldn't ignore other considerations that factor into the decision of where a high-end nineteen or twenty-year-old chooses to play. Something tells me that the girls in Madison, Ann Arbor and Oxford look a tad bit better than the ones in Lethbridge or Moose Jaw. Hell, some kids might actually want to play in front of their friends and family. At any rate, the more you normalize the CHL the less allure it will have.

The biggest obstacle to changing the rule is the old guard coaches. Guys like Red or York have spent the last twenty years developing extensive recruiting networks throughout the Tier II ranks. I can guarantee you that they do not want to be beholden (for purposes of recruiting) to the same CHL coaches they have been covertly bashing for the last twenty years. I would cut off eligibility for CHL players at 18 in part to give the USHL, BCHL and AJHL some comparative advantage vis-a-vis the CHL and to keep them as relevant as possible.

Consider too whether we can meaningfully expand (i.e. not just Penn State) NCAA D-1 hockey without increasing the pool of truly qualified players.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I agree with Rabbit. If schools simply enforce admission standards you won't have the "marginal" student-athletes you sometimes see at football and basketball factories in the NCAA.

Also I don't anticipate a "flood" of CHL grads if you open the doors without restriction. Only around half of North Americans graduate from post-secondary education programs of any kind, so you can then probably assume that at most half the kids in Major Junior would even contemplate NCAA. Then when you start filtering that half for those with good enough grades to get admitted to a university/college, well your pool is going to get a lot smaller again. Then add a socioeconomic filter for the majority of recruits who don't get a "full ride" and will have to fund the rest of their education, well that alone will get a lot of kids to stay in Canada where tuition is $5000-$6000 (or less) per year (and get that covered by the CHL leagues)..

Now take what's left, and restrict it some more by banning kids who signed a NHL contract, played a game in the NHL, played say more than one year of Major Junior, and I think what's left is not a flood but a trickle of Major Junior players coming to the NCAA ... if allowed.

I see no reason why a top end talent would leave a MJ team for the NCAA. Why? I see huge amounts of reasons for a lesser talented player that has used up his MJ eligibility, and since he is now older than most NCAA freshmen, he will get a roster spot, but there is zero reason why a top talent player who thinks he has a pro career wants to change teams.

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I see no reason why a top end talent would leave a MJ team for the NCAA. Why? I see huge amounts of reasons for a lesser talented player that has used up his MJ eligibility, and since he is now older than most NCAA freshmen, he will get a roster spot, but there is zero reason why a top talent player who thinks he has a pro career wants to change teams.

How many 18-year-old freshmen do you think are playing NCAA D-1 hockey these days? What you are describing happens every day with older kids from the USHL (and even the NAHL). It isn't really a basis for differentiating the CHL from the USHL.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

How many 18-year-old freshmen do you think are playing NCAA D-1 hockey these days? What you are describing happens every day with older kids from the USHL (and even the NAHL). It isn't really a basis for differentiating the CHL from the USHL.

So, that still doesn't say why any top talent would ever leave the CHL for the NCAA.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Look at this last month's activity. The top end talent is already abandoning NCAA hockey. I think it is also a mistake to assume that the "lower level" (your words) CHL players will not add skill to and improve the NCAA. The more the NCAA improves, the more high-end talent it will be able to attract. Also, even after a CHL kid is drafted, he can't really get into an NHL team's "system" until he his twenty (when he becomes eligible to play in the AHL). Until that point his options are the big club or the CHL. Just how fast is that fast track, really? In addition, you shouldn't ignore other considerations that factor into the decision of where a high-end nineteen or twenty-year-old chooses to play. Something tells me that the girls in Madison, Ann Arbor and Oxford look a tad bit better than the ones in Lethbridge or Moose Jaw. Hell, some kids might actually want to play in front of their friends and family. At any rate, the more you normalize the CHL the less allure it will have.

The biggest obstacle to changing the rule is the old guard coaches. Guys like Red or York have spent the last twenty years developing extensive recruiting networks throughout the Tier II ranks. I can guarantee you that they do not want to be beholden (for purposes of recruiting) to the same CHL coaches they have been covertly bashing for the last twenty years. I would cut off eligibility for CHL players at 18 in part to give the USHL, BCHL and AJHL some comparative advantage vis-a-vis the CHL and to keep them as relevant as possible.

Consider too whether we can meaningfully expand (i.e. not just Penn State) NCAA D-1 hockey without increasing the pool of truly qualified players.

There are still a number of first and second round draft picks in the NCAA game and their will continue to be some of those players and those are the ones that I don't want to lose to the CHL and any system that allows players to play in the NCAA game after playing in the CHL will almost assure that those players go to the CHL. The NCAA will not improve by losing those players, to claim that the NCAA game can get better by losing the top talent is laughable.

By lower end players, I was talking about those who were not drafted in the first two or three rounds. How does the college game get better by removing the players drafted in the first 2 rounds with players who are 20 and age out of the CHL but the NHL programs do not yet want to sign?

If you make it all the way to play in the CHL, you have a reasonable expectation that you have a real chance of playing professional hockey for a few years and an opportunity, given a little luck, that you could make the NHL. You don't leave the most popular and successful pro feeder system where all the top players play to go and play in a league that has CHL castoffs and plays only 1/2 of the total games.

These players will all have advisers (non-paid agents) who may be many things, but they are not stupid and going to let a player commit what will amount to professional suicide to go play in what will clearly be an inferior league.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

How many 18-year-old freshmen do you think are playing NCAA D-1 hockey these days? What you are describing happens every day with older kids from the USHL (and even the NAHL). It isn't really a basis for differentiating the CHL from the USHL.

The top players do enter the NCAA ranks as 18 year old freshmen, and the ability to play against older players is one of the advantages of the NCAA route. As long as the CHL allows players who have signed professional contracts to play it is different from the USHL, BCHL, and all the other Junior A leagues.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

So, that still doesn't say why any top talent would ever leave the CHL for the NCAA.

The problem that college hockey has now is that the vast majority of the top end talent is bypassing the NCAA all together as more and more Americans are becoming more familiar with the CHL route and deciding to make it their preferred choice.....just today, for example, Brandon Shea decommited from B.C. in favor of the Q......a shocking development really considering that his father was a B.C. alum that played for the Eagles in the 1980's and still maintains strong contact with both the school and hockey program.....yet he aided in his own son's decision to play for Moncton instead of Boston College

http://hockeyscene.com/hockeyscene/homepage_full_story.jsp?lid=1&nid=10075

Now Shea will forever be barred from D-1 play. He of course know's this and is comfortable with that fact but don't think for a second that he wouldn't seriously contemplate donning the maroon and gold of the Boston Eagles if it still were an option at the age of 18 or 19 but because he wants to play in the best type of environment for a player his age, the NCAA see's fit to forever disqualify him.

How many 18-year-old freshmen do you think are playing NCAA D-1 hockey these days? What you are describing happens every day with older kids from the USHL (and even the NAHL). It isn't really a basis for differentiating the CHL from the USHL

.

I once asked in a thread similar to this one what makes a USHL player more educationally inclined and more apt to go to college than a CHL player.
I was told in response that players who commit to the NCAA do not have a heavy pro like schedule as the CHL and therefore the players are able to maintain their academic progress. Many were quite shocked to learn in my response that the USHL schedule is very similar to that of the OHL and that the NTDP plays more games in a year than the entire regular season of the OHL.

Others then stated that the CHL is a business and that it treats its players as nothing more than commodities to earn a profit. I then explained that the USHL operates under the same business principles of the CHL, where by players are drafted at the same age and subjected to trades, demotions and outright dismissal over their play and or attitude.....yet the NCAA does not frown on those practices. Furthermore, the CHL invests more into their players as it provides them with scholarship packages to go on to school once their playing days are over, whether or not they play for a CIS or college team.

Some tried to state that the ultimate goal of USHL and NTDP players was playing in the NCAA in order to earn a degree for life after hockey. It may be the goal of "lower end" players as Happy would call them but certainly not for the higher end NHL drafted players because how else could one explain that the clear majority of NCAA alums in the NHL never graduated and often left college after one or two years.

Posters such as Happy have to realize that the NCAA will never have a Gretzky or Crosby grace it with their presence as such elite talent is in no way shape or from served by the NCAA. Such players are able to play in the NHL at 18 years of age, precluding any type of NCAA involvement.

The NCAA does attempt to fight for the next top tier of players, the future NHL stars but it loses the overwhelming majority of these battles. Of the battles it does win, such players rarely if ever stay beyond two seasons, lessining their over-all impact on the league and minimizing any effects they would have on the over-all quality of the league.

The dog fight with the CHL now really centers on the players with pro potential but who are in no way considered sure bets to become quality NHL regulars. Of these players who take the CHL route, many will spend up to 2 or 3 seasons in the ECHL/AHL before being called up to the NHL and often spend another season moving between the NHL and AHL before finally establishing themselves as NHL regulars. In short, they enter the NHL around the same time as their NCAA counter-parts.

These are the players that will indeed give the NCAA a full look over once they turn 19. They know they are not ready for the NHL for at least a few more seasons if ever. Such players would be very recruit able by the NCAA and many would relish the opportunity to play for a Michigan or a Minnesota for at least a couple of seasons and likely more. These 19 and 20 year old CHL players are in fact no different than your top USHL players today.

Claiming that revising the rules to allow CHL players would have a detrimental impact on the NCAA is based upon nothing but unfounded fears.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

So, why would any top talent who has played in the CHL ever go to the NCAA? Not a one will ever transfer even if it was legal, so clearly any change in the rules would be for low level talent.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Look at this last month's activity. The top end talent is already abandoning NCAA hockey.

I can't speak for hockey in other parts of the country, but this is definately not true in Minnesota. There are currently 6 Minnesotans playing in the CHL (5 in the Western Hockey League, 1 in the Ontario Hockey League, and from what I can tell none in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League). On the other hand, there were 184 Minnesotans who played Division 1 college hockey last year, and another 67 have D1 commitments for this year.

http://www.letsplayhockey.com/1031kurtt.html

Now, I know you'll say those 6 in the CHL are probably the elite, but I don't think so. I'm trying to remember the last time one of the top players from Minnesota elected to go to the CHL instead of the NCAA. Not many.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The NCAA does attempt to fight for the next top tier of players, the future NHL stars but it loses the overwhelming majority of these battles. Of the battles it does win, such players rarely if ever stay beyond two seasons, lessining their over-all impact on the league and minimizing any effects they would have on the over-all quality of the league.

The dog fight with the CHL now really centers on the players with pro potential but who are in no way considered sure bets to become quality NHL regulars. Of these players who take the CHL route, many will spend up to 2 or 3 seasons in the ECHL/AHL before being called up to the NHL and often spend another season moving between the NHL and AHL before finally establishing themselves as NHL regulars. In short, they enter the NHL around the same time as their NCAA counter-parts.

These are the players that will indeed give the NCAA a full look over once they turn 19. They know they are not ready for the NHL for at least a few more seasons if ever. Such players would be very recruit able by the NCAA and many would relish the opportunity to play for a Michigan or a Minnesota for at least a couple of seasons and likely more. These 19 and 20 year old CHL players are in fact no different than your top USHL players today.

Claiming that revising the rules to allow CHL players would have a detrimental impact on the NCAA is based upon nothing but unfounded fears.

Why should the NCAA stop fighting for the best players possible? How does having less talent players not have a detrimental impact on the NCAA game? The NCAA isn't ever going to get many of the ultra-elite (top 10 draft picks), but they will get a few and why should they just give up on trying to get those types of players just to make things easier for the CHL teams?

These players made their decision (in conjunction with their parents) when they made the decision to take the CHL route, if the results are not what the player dreams they would be the responsibility is with the player. They knowingly went to a league that allows players who have signed professional contracts to play in an effort to advance their hockey career.

Why doesn't the CHL change their rules to not allow players who have signed professional contracts play in their League? Why should the NCAA change?

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I can't speak for hockey in other parts of the country, but this is definately not true in Minnesota. There are currently 6 Minnesotans playing in the CHL (5 in the Western Hockey League, 1 in the Ontario Hockey League, and from what I can tell none in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League). On the other hand, there were 184 Minnesotans who played Division 1 college hockey last year, and another 67 have D1 commitments for this year.

http://www.letsplayhockey.com/1031kurtt.html

Now, I know you'll say those 6 in the CHL are probably the elite, but I don't think so. I'm trying to remember the last time one of the top players from Minnesota elected to go to the CHL instead of the NCAA. Not many.

The two best that come to my mind are Jamie Langenbrunner and Dustin Byfuglien. Dustin couldn't play in the NCAA, so he really had no choice. I am sure there are others, but many turn out to be busts.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Why should the NCAA stop fighting for the best players possible? How does having less talent players not have a detrimental impact on the NCAA game? The NCAA isn't ever going to get many of the ultra-elite (top 10 draft picks), but they will get a few and why should they just give up on trying to get those types of players just to make things easier for the CHL teams?

These players made their decision (in conjunction with their parents) when they made the decision to take the CHL route, if the results are not what the player dreams they would be the responsibility is with the player. They knowingly went to a league that allows players who have signed professional contracts to play in an effort to advance their hockey career.

Why doesn't the CHL change their rules to not allow players who have signed professional contracts play in their League? Why should the NCAA change?

Why would the NCAA stop fighting for these players if the restrictions agaisnt the CHL was lifted? What would make things any different other than the fact that Boston College could still be in the hunt for Shea rather than losing him entirely as is now the case? Seems to me that it would actually make things a tad easier for the NCAA.

Why should the CHL change their rule and give up millions of dollars in development money from the NHL and when they are winning the majority of the battles anyway.

So, why would any top talent who has played in the CHL ever go to the NCAA? Not a one will ever transfer even if it was legal, so clearly any change in the rules would be for low level talent.

If I were a G.M. of a CHL team, I would use Happy's qoute as part of my recruiting pitch. I would say "you see, they know that we are the best route and they want to use fear to keep you away..they know that once you are here, there would never be a reason to go through the NCAA because we are better, we offer more, we will be better for your development and that is why the NCAA uses fear and silly rules that do not even apply to their other sports to keep you away...they know they cannot compete with us and will try to keep you in the dark, not even allowing you to spend a week at our training camps....they are afraid and frankly I can't blame them because we are that much better...sure go play in the USHL for a year or even the NTDP as they will better prepare you to play for us but we are confident that you will find us to be your best option and that is why we do not bar anyone from playing where ever they want....we are the best, we know it and we can make you the best."

Using such logic admits that the CHL is the better route. I say let the CHL kids play and allow individual college programs to try and honestly compete with them.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Why should the CHL change their rule and give up millions of dollars in development money from the NHL and when they are winning the majority of the battles anyway.

Then why should the NCAA change their rules and lose out on the players that they currently get.

The NCAA changing the rule is better for the players and the CHL but not better for the NCAA. Why should the NCAA change the rule if it will cost them the top-level players that they currently get in exchange for non-top level players? Can anyone explain this to me.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Why would the NCAA stop fighting for these players if the restrictions agaisnt the CHL was lifted? What would make things any different other than the fact that Boston College could still be in the hunt for Shea rather than losing him entirely as is now the case? Seems to me that it would actually make things a tad easier for the NCAA.

Why should the CHL change their rule and give up millions of dollars in development money from the NHL and when they are winning the majority of the battles anyway.




If I were a G.M. of a CHL team, I would use Happy's qoute as part of my recruiting pitch. I would say "you see, they know that we are the best route and they want to use fear to keep you away..they know that once you are here, there would never be a reason to go through the NCAA because we are better, we offer more, we will be better for your development and that is why the NCAA uses fear and silly rules that do not even apply to their other sports to keep you away...they know they cannot compete with us and will try to keep you in the dark, not even allowing you to spend a week at our training camps....they are afraid and frankly I can't blame them because we are that much better...sure go play in the USHL for a year or even the NTDP as they will better prepare you to play for us but we are confident that you will find us to be your best option and that is why we do not bar anyone from playing where ever they want....we are the best, we know it and we can make you the best."

Using such logic admits that the CHL is the better route. I say let the CHL kids play and allow individual college programs to try and honestly compete with them.

I assume you are a politician, because even though you talk a whole lot, you never answered my simple question.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Then why should the NCAA change their rules and lose out on the players that they currently get.

The NCAA changing the rule is better for the players and the CHL but not better for the NCAA. Why should the NCAA change the rule if it will cost them the top-level players that they currently get in exchange for non-top level players? Can anyone explain this to me.

Why do you assume they will lose out on the few top players they already get?? Do you, like Happy, somehow feel that the CHL model offers more than what the NCAA can give and the only way for the NCAA to compete is to keep the current rules in place?

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

By the way, way to highlight my "Flood" comment when I already noted that I agreed it wouldn't be a "flood", but couldn't find a better term. My God.

You're right. Looking back now, I did kind of misconstrue what you meant by that, but "flood" caught my eye. Sorry.

David

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

You're right. Looking back now, I did kind of misconstrue what you meant by that, but "flood" caught my eye. Sorry.

David

No problem. Thanks

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Why do you assume they will lose out on the few top players they already get?? Do you, like Happy, somehow feel that the CHL model offers more than what the NCAA can give and the only way for the NCAA to compete is to keep the current rules in place?

I think that they are equivalent paths for the majority of players, if this rule is changed that is no longer the case and in that case the CHL path becomes superior in all cases.

The CHL has three distinct advantages currently: 1.) it is located in Canada with a much larger pool of hockey players; 2.) it takes players as young as 16 (15 in special cases) and allows them to play against the other top level under 20 talent; 3.) a longer history of being a NHL developmental pipeline.

Currently, the two paths are separate, some players are better served choosing the CHL path, whereas others are better off selecting the NCAA path. You remove the restriction of having former CHL players play in the NCAA and then ALL players are better served choosing the CHL path knowing that if once they are done with that path, if it doesn't work out for them they have the NCAA path to fall back on. In that case players will not leave the CHL to play in the NCAA unless they age out or are cut from a CHL team, in which case the NCAA teams will be full of players who were either unable to make step to the AHL or unable to cut it in the CHL.

If these former CHL players were so good, why is it that when a NCAA team plays a CIS steam, the NCAA team wins by as score of 8-1 or 7-2 on a regular basis?

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Well, if anyone needs to change their recruiting or eligibility rules, it logically would have to be the NCAA wouldn't it. After all, aren't they "losing" the recruiting battles now? There is no incentive for the CHL to change anything, as many have pointed out.

Again, I don't see why the NCAA couldn't consider allowing CHLers within all sorts of restrictions -- less than a year played, under a certain age, unsigned, whatever. Do MJ over-agers even have to enter into the conversation? Let the over-agers keep going to the CIS -- there's a good home for them there.

My personal belief is that until the NCAA loosens up just a little bit, and stops at minimum blacklisting young men who've played one exhibition game, or even one shift in the CHL, this debate will never end and the NCAA will be wasting whatever money they are spending on Kelly and College Hockey Inc. There is no incentive for the CHL to change their ways -- they're winning.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Just some light reading:

http://www.maha.org/PD_Home.aspx

The Red Wings Premier Hockey Development Program. Does this mean, because the program is sponsored by a professional team, funded in part by a professional team, and uses the professional team's name and moniker, that all the youth who participate in this program (which is supported and encourgaged by Michigan's overarching hockey authority Michigan Amatuer Hockey Association, MAHA) are now considered professional and lose their eligibility? Seems silly, but not entirely different from some of the arguments I've heard on this hread regarding the involvement and support, both personal and financial, of a professional team with amatuer players.


http://michiganjuniorhockey.blogspot.com/

I only note this site because I think it, in a small way, shows the stark differences in the mindsets of the Michigan (and a few non-Michigan) folks herein, and the Minnesotans. Minnesota has 6 kids, total, in Major Junior. Michigan has over 75 in the three leagues, most in the OHL which has two teams inside of Michigan. This is not a discussion of which system is good, bad, or anything else. Its a question of exposure to the Canadian / Michigan system which includes, and has always included, the OHL as a happy partner with Michigan Youth Hockey. Thus, in the discussion on this page, you are likely to have Michigan people who know and respect the CHL process. And I seem to see the majority of posters who are against the CHL, for good reasons or bad, from Minnesota. And I wonder how much of this disconnect is caused by a lack of exposure? (OH, I know, I know, I fully expect the normal knee-jerk response from some of the posters herein who think that ANY comment about Minnesota is reason to defend the ramparts with passion). There just seems to be so much absurd misinformation out there in the U.S. about CHL hockey, most of it unfounded and nonsensical.

I also enjoyed the comment earlier about the old guard college coaches protecting their well-groomed recruiting turf. Its an interesting thought, and not a light sentiment. I would agree that these coaches, who have deep and substantial contacts in the Junior A system would be very uncomfortable going hat-in-hand to the CHL coaches asking to work with them in recruiting. It would be a serious shift in the paradigm of college hockey recruiting. And I wonder what the CHL's response would be? Would the CHL enact their own defensive barrier? Right now, the CHL is blossoming happily with the NCAA regulations, because once a CHL team has a kid, even just to training camp, the kid is locked in. The CHL coach never has to worry about college coaches trying to get a kid to move along once he turns 18. If the NCAA Ban was lifted, the CHL would be the organization fighting to preserve their star players, and not the other way around.

And why would star players leave the CHL once they turn 18? For starters, how about all the advantages so many on this board trumpet. Education, experience, excellent hockey and development.
Only noted herein because there appears to be