Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

If these former CHL players were so good, why is it that when a NCAA team plays a CIS steam, the NCAA team wins by as score of 8-1 or 7-2 on a regular basis?

Okay, now you're out of context. The top CIS teams, especially in the AUS conference, can hold their own with Division I teams -- just look up UNB's record the last few years against Hockey East. The CIS teams that don't recruit as aggressively, many of them in Ontario, do get waxed when they travel down to the States, but they also don't normally advance to the CIS University Cup (national championship with 6 teams participating), or don't do well if they get there. Those teams also have far fewer Major Junior grads.

The CHL players in the CIS are not the creme of the CHL crop. They've played their overage year, and now is time to cash in their hard earned education package. Many with potential bypass the CIS and head directly to the AHL or ECHL with the dream of still making the NHL (and many will fail). There were only two CIS grads playing in the NHL last year - Joel Ward and Darryl Boyce (and Boyce left UNB after two years but is finishing his degree in the off-season). UNB's Hunter Tremblay, a former CIS player of the year, is a longshot to make the Oilers this year, and will probably be in the AHL. The CIS is not a development path to the NHL ... it is a second-chance league for late-bloomers to still develop into minor pros (and rarely into the NHL) with a prime mission of graduating student-athletes. And it is still good hockey to watch, particularly the AUS conference, the Canadian equivalent of Hockey East.

So comparing the NCAA to the CIS is not any way to compare the NCAA and CHL. Apples and oranges.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Just some light reading:

http://www.maha.org/PD_Home.aspx

The Red Wings Premier Hockey Development Program. Does this mean, because the program is sponsored by a professional team, funded in part by a professional team, and uses the professional team's name and moniker, that all the youth who participate in this program (which is supported and encourgaged by Michigan's overarching hockey authority Michigan Amatuer Hockey Association, MAHA) are now considered professional and lose their eligibility? Seems silly, but not entirely different from some of the arguments I've heard on this hread regarding the involvement and support, both personal and financial, of a professional team with amatuer players.


http://michiganjuniorhockey.blogspot.com/

I only note this site because I think it, in a small way, shows the stark differences in the mindsets of the Michigan (and a few non-Michigan) folks herein, and the Minnesotans. Minnesota has 6 kids, total, in Major Junior. Michigan has over 75 in the three leagues, most in the OHL which has two teams inside of Michigan. This is not a discussion of which system is good, bad, or anything else. Its a question of exposure to the Canadian / Michigan system which includes, and has always included, the OHL as a happy partner with Michigan Youth Hockey. Thus, in the discussion on this page, you are likely to have Michigan people who know and respect the CHL process. And I seem to see the majority of posters who are against the CHL, for good reasons or bad, from Minnesota. And I wonder how much of this disconnect is caused by a lack of exposure? (OH, I know, I know, I fully expect the normal knee-jerk response from some of the posters herein who think that ANY comment about Minnesota is reason to defend the ramparts with passion). There just seems to be so much absurd misinformation out there in the U.S. about CHL hockey, most of it unfounded and nonsensical.

I also enjoyed the comment earlier about the old guard college coaches protecting their well-groomed recruiting turf. Its an interesting thought, and not a light sentiment. I would agree that these coaches, who have deep and substantial contacts in the Junior A system would be very uncomfortable going hat-in-hand to the CHL coaches asking to work with them in recruiting. It would be a serious shift in the paradigm of college hockey recruiting. And I wonder what the CHL's response would be? Would the CHL enact their own defensive barrier? Right now, the CHL is blossoming happily with the NCAA regulations, because once a CHL team has a kid, even just to training camp, the kid is locked in. The CHL coach never has to worry about college coaches trying to get a kid to move along once he turns 18. If the NCAA Ban was lifted, the CHL would be the organization fighting to preserve their star players, and not the other way around.

And why would star players leave the CHL once they turn 18? For starters, how about all the advantages so many on this board trumpet. Education, experience, excellent hockey and development.
Only noted herein because there appears to be

Well, I'm from Minnesota, and am not completely against letting CHL players play in the NCAA, so I'm not quite sure what that does to you stereotype. If you restricted it to players from the CHL who only played their 16-17 year-old years in the CHL, I wouldn't be totally against it.

In regards to your comments about Minnesotans lack of exposure to the CHL, there may be some truth to that. However, as I have told you numerous times, we have traditionally always done things our own way, so I am not sure any changes that are made will effect Minnesota Hockey as much as it would hockey in the rest of the country.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Okay, now you're out of context. The top CIS teams, especially in the AUS conference, can hold their own with Division I teams -- just look up UNB's record the last few years against Hockey East.

So comparing the NCAA to the CIS is not any way to compare the NCAA and CHL. Apples and oranges.

Fair enough, my point was that the cream of the CHL croup wouldn't head to the NCAA path either.

Just some light reading:

http://www.maha.org/PD_Home.aspx

The Red Wings Premier Hockey Development Program. Does this mean, because the program is sponsored by a professional team, funded in part by a professional team, and uses the professional team's name and moniker, that all the youth who participate in this program (which is supported and encourgaged by Michigan's overarching hockey authority Michigan Amatuer Hockey Association, MAHA) are now considered professional and lose their eligibility? Seems silly, but not entirely different from some of the arguments I've heard on this thread regarding the involvement and support, both personal and financial, of a professional team with amatuer players.

Not unless the Red Wings are actually paying some of the players to play hockey. Corporate money to an organization doesn't make the player professionals, money directly to the players makes them professionals. The issue is that with the CHL, if one player is a professional, all the players are considered professionals.

And why would star players leave the CHL once they turn 18? For starters, how about all the advantages so many on this board trumpet. Education, experience, excellent hockey and development.

Except, if the rule were removed, that the quality of NCAA level hockey would fall and the disparity between the CHL and NCAA would be such that no top player would move to the NCAA path for fear of hurting their development.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Not unless the Red Wings are actually paying some of the players to play hockey. Corporate money to an organization doesn't make the player professionals, money directly to the players makes them professionals. The issue is that with the CHL, if one player is a professional, all the players are considered professionals.


Excellent point with regard to professional sponsorship. To a point. Corporate does not mean an actual professional hockey team. Honey Baked Ham is a corporation. Compuware is a corporation. The Red Wings are not merely a corporation, but a living breathing professional hockey organization. And its not as though Michigan Youth hockey is merely taking money from them -- its a whole system with the logo attached and everything. Now, I don't know how deep that system and support goes beyond the facial branding of the program. But I think there is a difference. And if this is OK with the NCAA, then what?

I don't know that I agree with the concept of "one pro, all pro." The NCAA certainly doesn't make this distinction in golf or tennis. I don't have an answer, it just seems like the NCAA makes up these rules as they go along.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

In regards to your comments about Minnesotans lack of exposure to the CHL, there may be some truth to that. However, as I have told you numerous times, we have traditionally always done things our own way, so I am not sure any changes that are made will effect Minnesota Hockey as much as it would hockey in the rest of the country.[/QUOTE]


Ah, and you see, I specifically pointed out that I was not commenting on how Minnesota does anything, good bad or indifferent. I merely mentioned that the most vocal opponents of the NCAA Ban seem to come from (at least by the screen name location listing) Minnesota. And I was wondering if there was a lack of exposure to the CHL in Minnesota -- or to put it another way -- over-exposure to the CHL in Michigan -- that clouds this discussion. The thought in my mind being that the status quo is harming NCAA hockey and doing nothing but benefiting the CHL. And I don't know how any changes to the NCAA mandate would bother Minnesota hockey. I doubt it would harm or benefit Minnesota hockey in any way. It certainly would not harm Michigan hockey at all, since Major Juniors is (as I've said) a well respected and well known commodity in the Great Lake State. But I don't see how the Ban hurts the CHL in any way. But it sure is harming the NCAA.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Ah, and you see, I specifically pointed out that I was not commenting on how Minnesota does anything, good bad or indifferent. I merely mentioned that the most vocal opponents of the NCAA Ban seem to come from (at least by the screen name location listing) Minnesota. And I was wondering if there was a lack of exposure to the CHL in Minnesota -- or to put it another way -- over-exposure to the CHL in Michigan -- that clouds this discussion. The thought in my mind being that the status quo is harming NCAA hockey and doing nothing but benefiting the CHL. And I don't know how any changes to the NCAA mandate would bother Minnesota hockey. I doubt it would harm or benefit Minnesota hockey in any way. It certainly would not harm Michigan hockey at all, since Major Juniors is (as I've said) a well respected and well known commodity in the Great Lake State. But I don't see how the Ban hurts the CHL in any way. But it sure is harming the NCAA.

I thought I answered your question. It's a bit of both. We traditionally do things our own way, so we don't have as much exposure to the CHL. I don't see that changing. I believe Michigan hockey is a bit over-exposed. I'm not going to get into an argument about whether the AAA or community-based model is better, but you'd probably lose less players to the CHL if you had a little more tradition of playing for your community. I don't think it a coincidence that more players from Michigan choose the CHL over players from Minnesota. My point wasn't that there is anything wrong with Michigan Hockey, because I don't think there is. Just a difference in philosophy.

I have little problem with players who want to play in the CHL until they are 18 doing so, and then moving to the NCAA. I am less convinced that letting players play out their eligability in the CHL and then moving to the NCAA is a good thing.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the Moncton coverage of Brandon Shea's decommit to BC.

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/sports/article/1431421:


Shea admits it was a tough decision to turn down the U.S. National Under-17 Program and a full scholarship offer at Boston College in favour of the QMJHL. He visited Moncton in July.

"When I came to Moncton they made me feel very comfortable," he said. "Coach Flynn talked to me about how they run things and (Wildcats owner) Mr. (Robert) Irving certainly made me feel comfortable. You can tell Mr. Irving operates things first class.

"I was impressed with the whole approach they have in running the organization. All my options were great, but at the end of the day my father and I felt that Coach Flynn and his staff would give me my best chance to develop and reach my potential."

One maybe shouldn't disregard the attraction of seasoned and respected coaches in the CHL that might win out over NCAA focused parents and players. Danny Flynn won a Memorial Cup as Ted Nolan's assistant with the Sault. St. Marie Greyhounds, won a CIS University Cup as head coach of StFX, was an NHL assistant coach with Nolan and the Islanders, and has taken the Moncton Wildcats to a QMJHL championship and Memorial Cup runner-ups. Several of his Wildcats have made the NHL. Even with that, I'm still surprised that Shea didn't play for his father's alma mater. But if you want to reinforce your conspiracy theories about under-the-table money, Robert Irving has lots of money.

[Disclaimer: I know the writer Neil Hodge and am not a big fan, partly because he writes for the newspaper owned by the same family that owns the QMJHL team he covers: the Irvings (their gas stations may be familiar to New Englanders). I know Danny Flynn fairly well from his CIS coaching days and we are friendly but not friends. ]

 

[fangers]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The only reason a 15 or 16 year old signs a letter of committment is because the college team wants to lock him up, and ensure he heads to Provincial A or the USHL. So, is it correct and proper for a college team to sign a kid, and then sit on his rights for three-four years while he plays out his junior seasons at the Provincial or USHL level? All of this being done under the unofficial direction and advice of the college team?

They don't sign anything at that age, it's simply a verbal committment by both sides. For every player who de-commits you can find cases where a school has backed away as well. A LOI/commitment can not be signed until 1 year (earliest) that they would be entering school.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

From a reporrt in Sarnia today Connor Murphy may miss 4-5 months.

http://coyotes.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=586023

 

[fangers]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Remember that quite a few Euro players played in the CHL as well....regardless lets call it a 2.5 -1 advantage for the CHL over the NCAA...quite a difference from the equal number reported by Eaves.

Eaves was talking about the percentage of players. Many more total MJ players than NCAA, so they are saying that the number of NCAA players in the NHL, as apercentage of total NCAA players is equal or higher than the MJ

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but the Moncton coverage of Brandon Shea's decommit to BC.

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/sports/article/1431421:


Shea admits it was a tough decision to turn down the U.S. National Under-17 Program and a full scholarship offer at Boston College in favour of the QMJHL. He visited Moncton in July.

"When I came to Moncton they made me feel very comfortable," he said. "Coach Flynn talked to me about how they run things and (Wildcats owner) Mr. (Robert) Irving certainly made me feel comfortable. You can tell Mr. Irving operates things first class."I was impressed with the whole approach they have in running the organization. All my options were great, ......."

[/I]

The Irving family for those how may not know are reputed to be one of the wealthiest in Canada.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-...a-s-second-richest-family-dies-at-age-78.html

 

[fangers]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

If you want to see how aggressive CHL teams are in signing NCAA players, go to the Sarnia Sting site and watch the video of their presser announcing the signing of Connor Murphy.


sarniasting.com

And Murphy likely to miss all of 2011/12 with yet another injury. bet the NCAA route looking a little better to him now.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

In regards to your comments about Minnesotans lack of exposure to the CHL, there may be some truth to that. However, as I have told you numerous times, we have traditionally always done things our own way, so I am not sure any changes that are made will effect Minnesota Hockey as much as it would hockey in the rest of the country.

Ah, and you see, I specifically pointed out that I was not commenting on how Minnesota does anything, good bad or indifferent. I merely mentioned that the most vocal opponents of the NCAA Ban seem to come from (at least by the screen name location listing) Minnesota. And I was wondering if there was a lack of exposure to the CHL in Minnesota -- or to put it another way -- over-exposure to the CHL in Michigan -- that clouds this discussion. The thought in my mind being that the status quo is harming NCAA hockey and doing nothing but benefiting the CHL. And I don't know how any changes to the NCAA mandate would bother Minnesota hockey. I doubt it would harm or benefit Minnesota hockey in any way. It certainly would not harm Michigan hockey at all, since Major Juniors is (as I've said) a well respected and well known commodity in the Great Lake State. But I don't see how the Ban hurts the CHL in any way. But it sure is harming the NCAA.[/QUOTE]

Everything has effects. My old high school will never win another championship, any really good player is convinced they have to leave for the USHL, or a recruiting high school in the Twin cities, and they leave.

Look at the effects that the change to rookie contracts had in the NHL. Lots of great players would stay in the NCAA 3 or 4 years to be able to sign a better rookie contract. Now, it's miracle if they stay 2 years.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Everything has effects. My old high school will never win another championship, any really good player is convinced they have to leave for the USHL, or a recruiting high school in the Twin cities, and they leave.

Look at the effects that the change to rookie contracts had in the NHL. Lots of great players would stay in the NCAA 3 or 4 years to be able to sign a better rookie contract. Now, it's miracle if they stay 2 years.

Never say never Which high school if you don't mind me asking?

I went to Eden Prairie. When I played in the early 90's, we were the whipping boys for Edina, Minnetonka, and the great Bloomington Jefferson teams at the time. Actually, pretty much everyone.

 

[4four4]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Okay, now you're out of context. The top CIS teams, especially in the AUS conference, can hold their own with Division I teams -- just look up UNB's record the last few years against Hockey East. The CIS teams that don't recruit as aggressively, many of them in Ontario, do get waxed when they travel down to the States, but they also don't normally advance to the CIS University Cup (national championship with 6 teams participating), or don't do well if they get there. Those teams also have far fewer Major Junior grads.

The CHL players in the CIS are not the creme of the CHL crop. They've played their overage year, and now is time to cash in their hard earned education package. Many with potential bypass the CIS and head directly to the AHL or ECHL with the dream of still making the NHL (and many will fail). There were only two CIS grads playing in the NHL last year - Joel Ward and Darryl Boyce (and Boyce left UNB after two years but is finishing his degree in the off-season). UNB's Hunter Tremblay, a former CIS player of the year, is a longshot to make the Oilers this year, and will probably be in the AHL. The CIS is not a development path to the NHL ... it is a second-chance league for late-bloomers to still develop into minor pros (and rarely into the NHL) with a prime mission of graduating student-athletes. And it is still good hockey to watch, particularly the AUS conference, the Canadian equivalent of Hockey East.

So comparing the NCAA to the CIS is not any way to compare the NCAA and CHL. Apples and oranges.

You will never be able to compare the NCAA with the CIS or the CHL. When the NCAA plays pre-season games they rarely play any of their best players for more than one period and many times the third string goalie plays the game.

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

And Murphy likely to miss all of 2011/12 with yet another injury. bet the NCAA route looking a little better to him now.

USA Hockey reported he will be sidelined 4-5 months according to the radio report I listened to.
Sarnia Sting Coach & GM was later interviewed and advised that Connor was having arthroscopic surgery and recovery shouldn't take any longer than 3-4 weeks.

Given this situation, why would you bet the NCAA route would look better to him now ?
This injury would have effected his 2011/12 season regardless of where he chose to play....wouldn't it ?

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

A couple of random thoughts:

1. High-end talent is already leaving college hockey. By this I mean Moore, Tinordi, Gibson, Campbell, Miller, Murphy, etc. These are all American born, first-round NHL draft picks. You could even add Etem, Boucher (god only knows why) and Pitlick (not the best example) to the list. The best players coming out of Minnesota each year (Bjugstad, Lucia, LaBate, Nelson etc.) are still going to college. Even if you changed the rule, they would still take the NCAA route. Changing this rule would have ZERO impact on hockey in MN or at the University of Minnesota. Minnesota will continue to produce very fine hockey players and in large numbers. Even if they considered taking ex-CHL players (which they won’t for a variety of cultural reasons) you could argue that they wouldn’t need to.

2. How many CHL players are actually under NHL contracts? (not drafted, actually under contract). Does anyone know this number? Most NHL teams don’t want to sign players before they absolutely need to. As an organization they are limited to 50 total professional contracts. As stated before, the one-pro/all-pro rule is illogical and indefensible in light of the treatment of NCAA golfers and tennis players. It’s ok to play against Tiger Woods, but not okay to play again Louis LeBlanc?

3. Only the “weaker” CHL players would be attracted to NCAA hockey. The term weaker is relative. Even the weaker players are very, very skilled and would improve the quality of NCAA hockey. Most of the CHL kids who are not ready for a professional contract at age 20, have not matured physically as some would have hoped. Two kids from Detroit’s organization that fit this mold are Alan Quine and Brooks Macek. Both would be great additions to college hockey and both could use the extra development time. Even without the very best CHL players, the NCAA game would improve under a modified rule. If the quality of NCAA hockey improves, and, more importantly, we normalize the CHL (vilification = encouragement), we will be able to retain more of our very good American players. Also consider what impact this change would have on family advisors and agents. Schools also won’t need to worry about CHL teams getting to/talking to players earlier.

4. Why isn’t CIS hockey better? I honestly think it is fine. The total number of ex-CHL players playing in it, however, is comparatively low. This educational money disappears if you sign any pro contract. The kids that don’t get an NHL contract and decide to try their hands in the ECHL (or lower) can kiss this money good bye.

5. Good American players will never come back for NCAA hockey. Are you sure about that? They leave home to play in the USHL, prep school, etc. and continue on to college? Why would going away to Brandon be any different from going away to Sioux City?

6. Would the comparative advantages of NCAA hockey be lost if they modified the rule?
No, you will still have older competition and still have a stronger practice-to-game ratio…and the girls in Madison will still look better than the ones in Saskatoon.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Excellent point with regard to professional sponsorship. To a point. Corporate does not mean an actual professional hockey team. Honey Baked Ham is a corporation. Compuware is a corporation. The Red Wings are not merely a corporation, but a living breathing professional hockey organization. And its not as though Michigan Youth hockey is merely taking money from them -- its a whole system with the logo attached and everything. Now, I don't know how deep that system and support goes beyond the facial branding of the program. But I think there is a difference. And if this is OK with the NCAA, then what?

I don't know that I agree with the concept of "one pro, all pro." The NCAA certainly doesn't make this distinction in golf or tennis. I don't have an answer, it just seems like the NCAA makes up these rules as they go along.

In this case, the Red Wings are just like any other organization and can sponsor the activities of the MAHA and allow the MAHA to use their logo. As long as the players are not paid to play hockey, they are not professionals.

The thing with golf and tennis is that they are individual sports, not team sports, and that provided that the players don't accept any financial awards from performance, they keep their amateur status.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Eaves was talking about the percentage of players. Many more total MJ players than NCAA, so they are saying that the number of NCAA players in the NHL, as apercentage of total NCAA players is equal or higher than the MJ

What This makes no sense....furthermore there are nearly as many total NCAA teams and players as there are CHL ones.

AVFC



Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs
A couple of random thoughts:

Excellent post.....you will not, however, convince the proponents of the current rules, such as Happy and Almington to change their opinions as they feel that the CHL is clearly superior to the NCAA and the only way to keep college hockey viable is to ban CHL players.

 

[fangers]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

USA Hockey reported he will be sidelined 4-5 months according to the radio report I listened to.
Sarnia Sting Coach & GM was later interviewed and advised that Connor was having arthroscopic surgery and recovery shouldn't take any longer than 3-4 weeks.

Given this situation, why would you bet the NCAA route would look better to him now ?
This injury would have effected his 2011/12 season regardless of where he chose to play....wouldn't it ?

I read that he'd miss the whole season, but I guess that's yet to be seen.

I'd bet the NCAA route might look more appealing to him now than it did just a few weeks ago is because he's sustained yet another injury. He's missed more time than he's played the past couple seasons, so it's not that unreasonable to forsee him not being able to be healthy enough to ever be able to play professionally or complete any significant time to accrue the CHL school funds. The NCAA route at least would have given him the education to fall back on.