Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[hobeydog]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The Sarnia Sting are no more worthy of an investigation on how they conduct their business than many NCAA sports programs. It is what it is.

The Sting have had a tradition of losing since since the Cicarelli's brought the franchise to Sarnia in 1994. They may have made the playoffs a handful of times, advancing to the second round once thanks to Steven Stamkos. There is a new Coach & GM in town which is a big reason the pre-season hype seen the video.

Former NHL players and their families seem to invest in CHL teams. The Hunters do very well in London. Are they generally that good an investment?

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The head of the Canadian Hockey League is basically saying that Paul Kelly should put up or shut up about rumour mongering about six-figure payments to players to eschew the NCAA. He wants a sit down.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/juniorho...lk-to-Paul-Kelly-abou?urn=juniorhockey-wp1040

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The head of the Canadian Hockey League is basically saying that Paul Kelly should put up or shut up about rumour mongering about six-figure payments to players to eschew the NCAA. He wants a sit down.

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/juniorho...lk-to-Paul-Kelly-abou?urn=juniorhockey-wp1040

yeah....this is the money quote I would just hope that if someone has knowledge that there is some type of payment — and I'm not sure if it was paid or offered, either way it's not right, I suppose — then we'd like to have that knowledge so we can respond and act accordingly."


it's not right, I SUPPOSE

really? it's wrong you suppose? that sort of invalidates the whole enforcement officer thing doesn't it? what kinds of mixed messages does that guy get?

I hope Paul Kelly has something substantial enough to bring this argument to the fore.

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

AVFC,

I agree with just about all you wrote but have one quibble.



I agree that the CIS hockey is fine, and a great game to watch (and not just because outside of Ontario the players wear half-visors instead of full face cages). However, there is disparity because the CIS doesn't have a Div I / II / III configuration. In two CIS conferences, the AUS and Canada West, there is a strong competitive balance and the majority of the rosters are filled with CHL grads, and even former minor-pros. Not surprisingly, these two conferences are the strongest and produce the most national champions. Unfortunately, in the much larger OUA conference, which encompasses Ontario and Quebec, there are a lot of CIS teams and only a few good ones. Only the handful of top teams in the OUA have a majority of CHL grads. Also not surprisingly, the OUA teams are really challenged when they play AUS or Canada West teams (and this only happens in exhibition games or at the national championship since there is no out-of-conference play in the CIS). It's a shame, because good clubs like McGill don't consistently play enough good teams in their own division and conference to adequately prepare them for national competition, in my opinion.

Apologies. I was not trying to demean CIS schools. I was just trying to explain that their pool of potential players contains fewer CHL guys than some might expect. My CIS experience is limited to some of the Alberta schools and a couple of the Ontario schools from about fifteen years ago. The guys I knew that played at the Ontrio schools came from the old OPJHL. I will get to see McGill this season which should be cool.

Yeah so $100K isn't what it once was, especially after state and federal income tax and self-employment tax. I hope Murphy gets better. I feel bad that he has missed so much hockey in the last three years.

I am always amazed at how distinct MN hockey culture is. Everyone I know from there has this very particular mindset about the game and its players. I haven't encountered anything else quite like it anywhere else.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Well $100K appears to a minimum signing bonus for a 1st or 2nd rounder (and would certainly cover all costs for a four year degree in Canada). I've read that some get 2 or 3 times that, which certainly would take care of a four-year degree at an American school.

Antsy? Oh, I meant the fact that there are players in the CHL with NHL signing bonuses in their bank accounts is probably one of the many reasons the NCAA uses to classify the CHL as a professional league versus Junior A leagues.

NHL rookie contracts are set by the CBA. Rookie max used to be $850,000 per year, with 10% the max signing bonus. this has gone up to $925,000 or so this year with max bonus $92,500. These are 2 way contracts, too. This is the reason so many more kids get signed early, this is chump change to a NHL team, compared to the days of $1 million dollar signing bonuses, and 1 way contracts

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The CHL has no fear of anything from the NCAA. The CHL is well established, well funded, has a dedicated fan base, has the respect of professional hockey league world-wide. The CHL has great stadiums, usually great facilities, great media coverage (especially locally). The CHL's product is part of Canada's culture -- in many way (not all ways, but many) the same as minor league baseball in the States. Hockey, unlike basketball and football, does not rely on the standard American model, which is generally: Local sports, high school, college, pro. The CHL is a unique animal in sports, unlike anything in the U.S. (aside from the cultural similarity to minor league baseball).

NCAA hockey is literally torn between two worlds -- the dominant Canadian system and the unique-to-hockey, somewhat regional American model (which is primarly a Minnesota oddity vis-a-vis hockey). The NCAA is of course an American system, and its stewards are likely to be confused by the wierd nature of the CHL and its wierd place in the hockey world (wierd in as much as it deviates so radically from the standard American sports arch).

So its not suprising to me that the NCAA would be fighting this war with the CHL in this manner. I think the ban is based upon ignorance more than any serious logical conclusion. Just my opinion. This is why the CHL ban seems arcane and misplaced to those of us who grew up, and still follow to varying degrees, the Canadian system.

I encourage anyone who has not yet spent some time in a CHL rink to make a road trip. Go see a game. Make it a weekend. I promise you, it is not just "faster" USHL. Its really an impressive product. I believe that until you see something, you will never understand. The same is likely very true for all our Canadian friends (and I have many) who think NCAA hcokey is still for small non-fighting Minnesota kids. (This is an actual line by a friend of mine after a beer league game last night, when this topic came up at the bar. In fact, many of the guys said, basically, "I like the Lakers and all, but I can't say I have muuch respect for college players.").

My point is, even my old hockey buddies in Soo have their own bias -- in that case against high school hockey, which in Michigan is a joke. Unless they see Minnesota or North Dakota or Alaska high school hockey, they don't understand. And won't ever understand.

So my advise: go to a CHL game. Be the smarter, more educated college products and expand your knowledge. For you Minnesotans, I don't know what to tell you. Your closest CHL team is Brandon, Manitoba,which is not close to anything.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The CHL has no fear of anything from the NCAA. The CHL is well established, well funded, has a dedicated fan base, has the respect of professional hockey league world-wide. The CHL has great stadiums, usually great facilities, great media coverage (especially locally). The CHL's product is part of Canada's culture -- in many way (not all ways, but many) the same as minor league baseball in the States. Hockey, unlike basketball and football, does not rely on the standard American model, which is generally: Local sports, high school, college, pro. The CHL is a unique animal in sports, unlike anything in the U.S. (aside from the cultural similarity to minor league baseball).

NCAA hockey is literally torn between two worlds -- the dominant Canadian system and the unique-to-hockey, somewhat regional American model (which is primarly a Minnesota oddity vis-a-vis hockey). The NCAA is of course an American system, and its stewards are likely to be confused by the wierd nature of the CHL and its wierd place in the hockey world (wierd in as much as it deviates so radically from the standard American sports arch).

So its not suprising to me that the NCAA would be fighting this war with the CHL in this manner. I think the ban is based upon ignorance more than any serious logical conclusion. Just my opinion. This is why the CHL ban seems arcane and misplaced to those of us who grew up, and still follow to varying degrees, the Canadian system.

I encourage anyone who has not yet spent some time in a CHL rink to make a road trip. Go see a game. Make it a weekend. I promise you, it is not just "faster" USHL. Its really an impressive product. I believe that until you see something, you will never understand. The same is likely very true for all our Canadian friends (and I have many) who think NCAA hcokey is still for small non-fighting Minnesota kids. (This is an actual line by a friend of mine after a beer league game last night, when this topic came up at the bar. In fact, many of the guys said, basically, "I like the Lakers and all, but I can't say I have muuch respect for college players.").

My point is, even my old hockey buddies in Soo have their own bias -- in that case against high school hockey, which in Michigan is a joke. Unless they see Minnesota or North Dakota or Alaska high school hockey, they don't understand. And won't ever understand.

So my advise: go to a CHL game. Be the smarter, more educated college products and expand your knowledge. For you Minnesotans, I don't know what to tell you. Your closest CHL team is Brandon, Manitoba,which is not close to anything.

I have enough great hockey right here at home. Like I said before, we do our own thing. That doesn't mean I'm against letting you make changes to the way you do things, but I am just fine with Minnesota Hockey the way it is.

I will tell you what though. If you come out and watch a packed house at the XCel Energy Center for the MN State High School Tournament, I will make it a point to catch a CHL game live

 

[NorthernLite]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Former NHL players and their families seem to invest in CHL teams. The Hunters do very well in London. Are they generally that good an investment?

The Hunters have a great gig in London.
The Cicarelli's have prospered on the business end of things in Sarnia,... despite the fact that they have been unable to put a winning product on the ice. The fans are desperate and interest has waned... particularly post Stamkos.
A revolving door of coaches/GM's since 1994 that have had success elsewhere (including Mark Hunter) would seem to indicate that the Cicarelli's were/are the problem.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

$100,000 doesn't go very far these days when it comes to quality education. What do mean by NCAA gets antsy about signed players?

Actually signing bonuses today can often exceed the 10% cap by staggering the payments over a number of years. David Broll of the Soo Greyhounds was a 6th round pick of the Leafs this year and was recently signed.......

.As part of the NHL contract, Broll receives a signing bonus of $142,500, to be paid over the three years of the deal. He expects to receive his first cheque in the next couple of weeks.

Full article here http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3238570

Safe to assume that Murphy, who was a 1st rounder, received a better deal. He obviously made the right decision in deciding against the NCAA route simply because all players are one injury away from ending their careers. Had he followed through on his commitment to Miami, he may have been wondering if he'd ever play again and would Miami honor his scholarship since they were in no way obligated to do so per contract language.

He now has financial security and hopefully he can overcome this latest injury and prosper into a great player

 

[hobeydog]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The CHL has no fear of anything from the NCAA. The CHL is well established, well funded, has a dedicated fan base, has the respect of professional hockey league world-wide. The CHL has great stadiums, usually great facilities, great media coverage (especially locally). The CHL's product is part of Canada's culture -- in many way (not all ways, but many) the same as minor league baseball in the States. Hockey, unlike basketball and football, does not rely on the standard American model, which is generally: Local sports, high school, college, pro. The CHL is a unique animal in sports, unlike anything in the U.S. (aside from the cultural similarity to minor league baseball).

NCAA hockey is literally torn between two worlds -- the dominant Canadian system and the unique-to-hockey, somewhat regional American model (which is primarly a Minnesota oddity vis-a-vis hockey). The NCAA is of course an American system, and its stewards are likely to be confused by the wierd nature of the CHL and its wierd place in the hockey world (wierd in as much as it deviates so radically from the standard American sports arch).

So its not suprising to me that the NCAA would be fighting this war with the CHL in this manner. I think the ban is based upon ignorance more than any serious logical conclusion. Just my opinion. This is why the CHL ban seems arcane and misplaced to those of us who grew up, and still follow to varying degrees, the Canadian system.

I encourage anyone who has not yet spent some time in a CHL rink to make a road trip. Go see a game. Make it a weekend. I promise you, it is not just "faster" USHL. Its really an impressive product. I believe that until you see something, you will never understand. The same is likely very true for all our Canadian friends (and I have many) who think NCAA hcokey is still for small non-fighting Minnesota kids. (This is an actual line by a friend of mine after a beer league game last night, when this topic came up at the bar. In fact, many of the guys said, basically, "I like the Lakers and all, but I can't say I have muuch respect for college players.").

My point is, even my old hockey buddies in Soo have their own bias -- in that case against high school hockey, which in Michigan is a joke. Unless they see Minnesota or North Dakota or Alaska high school hockey, they don't understand. And won't ever understand.

So my advise: go to a CHL game. Be the smarter, more educated college products and expand your knowledge. For you Minnesotans, I don't know what to tell you. Your closest CHL team is Brandon, Manitoba,which is not close to anything.

You mean that the high end of the CHL is well funded and,in fact, eight teams are located in the US because there aren't enough markets and adequate arenas to support a full compliment of franchises. And, surprisingly, the CHL doesn't do well in Toronto and Montreal. A fair amount of franchise movement occurs at the low end. For every London or Kitchener there is a Sudbury and St. Mikes.

 

[hobeydog]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Actually signing bonuses today can often exceed the 10% cap by staggering the payments over a number of years. David Broll of the Soo Greyhounds was a 6th round pick of the Leafs this year and was recently signed.......

Full article here http://www.saultstar.com/ArticleDisplay.aspx?e=3238570

Safe to assume that Murphy, who was a 1st rounder, received a better deal. He obviously made the right decision in deciding against the NCAA route simply because all players are one injury away from ending their careers. Had he followed through on his commitment to Miami, he may have been wondering if he'd ever play again and would Miami honor his scholarship since they were in no way obligated to do so per contract language.

He now has financial security and hopefully he can overcome this latest injury and prosper into a great player

Of course the Leafs are more flush with cash than the struggling Coyotes. BTW, is the Antler's restaurant in Soo, Michigan still open? Had some good times there way back.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The CHL has no fear of anything from the NCAA. The CHL is well established, well funded, has a dedicated fan base, has the respect of professional hockey league world-wide. The CHL has great stadiums, usually great facilities, great media coverage (especially locally). The CHL's product is part of Canada's culture -- in many way (not all ways, but many) the same as minor league baseball in the States. Hockey, unlike basketball and football, does not rely on the standard American model, which is generally: Local sports, high school, college, pro. The CHL is a unique animal in sports, unlike anything in the U.S. (aside from the cultural similarity to minor league baseball).

NCAA hockey is literally torn between two worlds -- the dominant Canadian system and the unique-to-hockey, somewhat regional American model (which is primarly a Minnesota oddity vis-a-vis hockey). The NCAA is of course an American system, and its stewards are likely to be confused by the wierd nature of the CHL and its wierd place in the hockey world (wierd in as much as it deviates so radically from the standard American sports arch).

So its not suprising to me that the NCAA would be fighting this war with the CHL in this manner. I think the ban is based upon ignorance more than any serious logical conclusion. Just my opinion. This is why the CHL ban seems arcane and misplaced to those of us who grew up, and still follow to varying degrees, the Canadian system.

I encourage anyone who has not yet spent some time in a CHL rink to make a road trip. Go see a game. Make it a weekend. I promise you, it is not just "faster" USHL. Its really an impressive product. I believe that until you see something, you will never understand. The same is likely very true for all our Canadian friends (and I have many) who think NCAA hcokey is still for small non-fighting Minnesota kids. (This is an actual line by a friend of mine after a beer league game last night, when this topic came up at the bar. In fact, many of the guys said, basically, "I like the Lakers and all, but I can't say I have muuch respect for college players.").

My point is, even my old hockey buddies in Soo have their own bias -- in that case against high school hockey, which in Michigan is a joke. Unless they see Minnesota or North Dakota or Alaska high school hockey, they don't understand. And won't ever understand.

So my advise: go to a CHL game. Be the smarter, more educated college products and expand your knowledge. For you Minnesotans, I don't know what to tell you. Your closest CHL team is Brandon, Manitoba,which is not close to anything.

and I invite you to the best high school tournament in the USA in any sport. 18,000 fans a game, and 120,000 fans for the tournament can't be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_high_school_hockey

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

You mean that the high end of the CHL is well funded and,in fact, eight teams are located in the US because there aren't enough markets and adequate arenas to support a full compliment of franchises. And, surprisingly, the CHL doesn't do well in Toronto and Montreal. A fair amount of franchise movement occurs at the low end. For every London or Kitchener there is a Sudbury and St. Mikes.

Many (most? all?) of the CHL teams in the States moved from Canada because Canadian owners saw a chance to make a quick buck. Like North Bay's move to Saginaw. Just like when a profitable Quebec NHL team moves to Denver for a big pay day for the owner.

The CHL's Maine Maineacs dissolved this spring because they couldn't make a go of it, and couldn't find a new home in Canada. Yet a expansion QMJHL team will take its place in a year's team in Sherbrooke, Quebec. Why couldn't Maine move to Sherbrooke? That's a good question with a complicated answer.

Shorter answer. Just because a CHL team moves doesn't mean it wasn't profitable in a given market. It could be as simple as the owner can make more money in another market.

As for Toronto and Montreal? Two of the biggest hockey markets in the world? Well, it is NHL or bust with a complete sports media focus on the Leafs or the Habs and only minimal attention for any other level of hockey.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I have heard a lot of self defensive and reflexive gibber-jabber about some absurdly childish puffery about state pride. nice. Don't care. The topic is, and has always been, about the NCAA keeping out CHL kids. For those who discount my understanding that Mariucci was a key player in this rule's creation -- I welcome evidence to the contrary. But none of that changes the core issue: the NCAA forbids CHL kids from playing. Why is that? And is it valid? I say no.

You continue to manufacture charges (there may be one poster here period that's rolled out the state pride bit and you conceded you have nothing to support your stories about MN hockey boogeymen) while refusing to explain why the existing rules should be changed. Maybe they should be, but you're not going to convince anyone from your ivory tower.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

NHL rookie contracts are set by the CBA. Rookie max used to be $850,000 per year, with 10% the max signing bonus. this has gone up to $925,000 or so this year with max bonus $92,500. These are 2 way contracts, too. This is the reason so many more kids get signed early, this is chump change to a NHL team, compared to the days of $1 million dollar signing bonuses, and 1 way contracts

But the signing bonus is 10% PER SEASON (NHL CBA section 9.3), so as an 18 year old, he would sign a 3 years contract and could have a signing bonus of 3X$92,500=$277,500 in total.

Murphy will also make up to $10,500 per year he plays in MJ (NHL CBA section 9.4).

 

[Lakerblue]

and I invite you to the best high school tournament in the USA in any sport. 18,000 fans a game, and 120,000 fans for the tournament can't be wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnesota_high_school_hockey

I actually, believe it or not, have been there. Twice. Its neat, but if you're not from minnesota (and I am not) and don't really care about minnesota (and I don't) and aren't terribly impressed with high school hockey (and I am not) then I suspect the hoosiers-like sepia toned memories some minnesotans carry for their tourny is likely lost in the translation. I can see where it must be neat for those who care, but its not some transcendent event which alters the soul.

I was in the soo when the greyhounds hosted the memorial cup, and that was quite thrilling.

I think its a shame that some posters herein have expressed the sentiment that they would rather sit in their own backyard and not venture out to see the world. I guess I like to travel and have enjoyed exploring other people and places, but not everybody is built like that. I just think you miss out on so many wonderful things by sitting in your home state.

As for the ncaa ban on the chl? I will ask this: who does this ban hurt? I understand its protectionist purpose, but what are the downsides? Because I just dont see how the chl is damaged, but I sure see how the ncaa is harmed. Is it worth it? If yes, then stop whimpering about kids leaving college commitments for the chl, its the price paid. And stop wasting time, money, and effort fighting the chl. Spend time and effort on promoting the ncaa game and its member schools.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Of course the Leafs are more flush with cash than the struggling Coyotes. BTW, is the Antler's restaurant in Soo, Michigan still open? Had some good times there way back.

I'm pretty sure that Murphy signed with a bonus above the 200k pay range despite the Coyotes cash problems....point being is that if he wants the best education in the world, he now has the money to pay for it so in no way shape or form can you argue that his decision to go through the CHL route in signing a NHL contract was the wrong thing to do. It actually was the best thing for him considering his injury problems.

Yes the Antlers is still open....it fell under some tough times but there are new owners now with a revamped menu.

 

[4four4]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I just think you miss out on so many wonderful things by sitting in your home state.

When you have the best hockey in the country there is no reason to leave.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I actually, believe it or not, have been there. Twice. Its neat, but if you're not from minnesota (and I am not) and don't really care about minnesota (and I don't) and aren't terribly impressed with high school hockey (and I am not) then I suspect the hoosiers-like sepia toned memories some minnesotans carry for their tourny is likely lost in the translation. I can see where it must be neat for those who care, but its not some transcendent event which alters the soul.

I was in the soo when the greyhounds hosted the memorial cup, and that was quite thrilling.

I think its a shame that some posters herein have expressed the sentiment that they would rather sit in their own backyard and not venture out to see the world. I guess I like to travel and have enjoyed exploring other people and places, but not everybody is built like that. I just think you miss out on so many wonderful things by sitting in your home state.

As for the ncaa ban on the chl? I will ask this: who does this ban hurt? I understand its protectionist purpose, but what are the downsides? Because I just dont see how the chl is damaged, but I sure see how the ncaa is harmed. Is it worth it? If yes, then stop whimpering about kids leaving college commitments for the chl, its the price paid. And stop wasting time, money, and effort fighting the chl. Spend time and effort on promoting the ncaa game and its member schools.

So, why would anybody not connected with the CHL give a **** about it, either?

 

[JDUBBS1280]

I actually, believe it or not, have been there. Twice. Its neat, but if you're not from minnesota (and I am not) and don't really care about minnesota (and I don't) and aren't terribly impressed with high school hockey (and I am not) then I suspect the hoosiers-like sepia toned memories some minnesotans carry for their tourny is likely lost in the translation. I can see where it must be neat for those who care, but its not some transcendent event which alters the soul.

And we feel the exact same way about the CHL. Great league, but nothing that is "transcendent" or will "alter the soul".