Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Thank you. And to answer your question, I can see both sides. While I agree with the fact that essentially there really is no difference between a USHL player playing in the NCAA and a CHL player playing in the NCAA, it is hard to ignore the fact that this rule is at least partially responsible for giving more American kids the opportunity to play NCAA hockey. That, in turn, has been partially responsible for feuling the growth of USA Hockey.

Without having the opportunity to give it a lot of thought, I guess my initial feelings on this would be that I would be ok with them lifting the rule. However, I would like to see the Minnesota schools continue to give opportunities to Minnesota players, which I am sure they would do.

Gee, we pretty much seem to be in agreement here. Those of us who believe that CHLers should be eligible for the NCAA tend to agree that there is little difference between the CHL and Junior A leagues such as the USHL, certainly not enough for them to be blacklisted by the NCAA.

Now obviously if a hockey player plays in the AHL or the NHL before playing or going back to the CHL, well sure, he should be considered a pro and barred from the NCAA. (FWIW, that same player is not currently prevented from playing in the CIS ...)

P.S. Because I'm also a fan of the CIS, I don't mind things the way they are now. I just get bent out of shape when folks start saying that the CHL is awful for "poaching" players from the NCAA, or for presuming that the NCAA is currently developing players for the NHL to the same degree as the CHL, which they are not ... yet.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

See, now we're all getting there. Once the regional chest thumping slows down to a reasonable patter, we all start to see clealy how silly this rule truly is.

Isn't that fun?

I am -- honestly -- not a random bomb-thrower in the forums. I generally don't post much at all, and when I do its usually complaining about LSSU's lost hockey decade and complaining about the poorly run CCHA. Its almost comical how some of you Minnesotans are a terribly sensative group of people. Its too bad your little state is not exposed to CHL hockey. I suspect you'd all probably like it a great deal. Its like a fast, incredibly skilled USHL. The CHL is a wonderful product and wonderful development system. It is fun to watch, fun to follow. And much like college hockey, you can follow the very best young players. And frankly, I haven't heard a single legitimate argument in favor of the NCAA keeping out CHL kids.

I have heard a lot of self defensive and reflexive gibber-jabber about some absurdly childish puffery about state pride. nice. Don't care. The topic is, and has always been, about the NCAA keeping out CHL kids. For those who discount my understanding that Mariucci was a key player in this rule's creation -- I welcome evidence to the contrary. But none of that changes the core issue: the NCAA forbids CHL kids from playing. Why is that? And is it valid? I say no.

It was a nice conversation, and an interesting one, until you indicted Minnesota Youth Hockey as being the sole reason the CHL rule exists. That was a "random bomb throw", and one you still refuse to admit you were wrong on. Yet you continue to call us "sensitive" and even try to save face by saying we drifted off topic and started the "regional chest thumping".

Please, save it. I don't think anyone really cares about what you have to say any longer.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Gee, we pretty much seem to be in agreement here. Those of us who believe that CHLers should be eligible for the NCAA tend to agree that there is little difference between the CHL and Junior A leagues such as the USHL, certainly not enough for them to be blacklisted by the NCAA.

Now obviously if a hockey player plays in the AHL or the NHL before playing or going back to the CHL, well sure, he should be considered a pro and barred from the NCAA. (FWIW, that same player is not currently prevented from playing in the CIS ...)

Just to clarify, I don't like the idea of ending the rule, and don't think it would be good for USA Hockey in general, but I am more concerned about Minnesota hockey players and feel confident enough that they will still have as many opportunities to play college hockey to let you do what you want.

 

[First Time Long Time]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Several people have said why they think CHL kids should be kept out, some consider them pros because they play with and against kids under NHL contracts and therefore they appear to act more like a minor league to the NHL than a true junior league.
You, Laker Blue, have chosen to ignore those people and continue to attack Minnesotans as xenophobic when the xenophobia seems to be coming from you.
I've seen CHL hockey, and I'll take the college game over it every time.

 

[GoBeavers]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

A new member of the ignore list.

See, now we're all getting there. Once the regional chest thumping slows down to a reasonable patter, we all start to see clealy how silly this rule truly is.

Isn't that fun?

I am -- honestly -- not a random bomb-thrower in the forums. I generally don't post much at all, and when I do its usually complaining about LSSU's lost hockey decade and complaining about the poorly run CCHA. Its almost comical how some of you Minnesotans are a terribly sensative group of people. Its too bad your little state is not exposed to CHL hockey. I suspect you'd all probably like it a great deal. Its like a fast, incredibly skilled USHL. The CHL is a wonderful product and wonderful development system. It is fun to watch, fun to follow. And much like college hockey, you can follow the very best young players. And frankly, I haven't heard a single legitimate argument in favor of the NCAA keeping out CHL kids.

I have heard a lot of self defensive and reflexive gibber-jabber about some absurdly childish puffery about state pride. nice. Don't care. The topic is, and has always been, about the NCAA keeping out CHL kids. For those who discount my understanding that Mariucci was a key player in this rule's creation -- I welcome evidence to the contrary. But none of that changes the core issue: the NCAA forbids CHL kids from playing. Why is that? And is it valid? I say no.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

No, sorry, I didn't get "lost" in the details. Rather, I tried to reply with facts to someone who was making statements about the equality of the NCAA and CHL hockey development apparently solely based on the comments of one coach (and I have since disproved part of what he stated as fact).

I follow the maxim: "We're all entitled to our opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts."

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

No, sorry, I didn't get "lost" in the details. Rather, I tried to reply with facts to someone who was making statements about the equality of the NCAA and CHL hockey development apparently solely based on the comments of one coach (and I have since disproved part of what he stated as fact).

I follow the maxim: "We're all entitled to our opinions. We're not entitled to our own facts."

Problem is, they weren't MY facts. Again, believe what you want. Until I see concreate evidence that shows Eaves is wrong, I will believe him. And no offense, this will be my last reply to this topic because the back and forth is getting really old. Honestly, no offense, but this is going no where.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Just some fun reading. This is the end result of the NCAA study. No names, no places, no other agenda is discussed. It makes for an interesting historical read. I am willing to retract my remarks about Mariucci, simply because they are not helpful and I haven't found his fingerprints and at the time of the implimentation of the CHL rule, he was a very old man. I am sure he held some sway, and he may have had a hand in launching the investigation by the NCAA into the CHL players . . . but there is no proof that I can find by just randomly passing time through the internet.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/1980/19800715.pdf

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

See, now we're all getting there. Once the regional chest thumping slows down to a reasonable patter, we all start to see clealy how silly this rule truly is.

Isn't that fun?

I am -- honestly -- not a random bomb-thrower in the forums. I generally don't post much at all, and when I do its usually complaining about LSSU's lost hockey decade and complaining about the poorly run CCHA. Its almost comical how some of you Minnesotans are a terribly sensative group of people. Its too bad your little state is not exposed to CHL hockey. I suspect you'd all probably like it a great deal. Its like a fast, incredibly skilled USHL. The CHL is a wonderful product and wonderful development system. It is fun to watch, fun to follow. And much like college hockey, you can follow the very best young players. And frankly, I haven't heard a single legitimate argument in favor of the NCAA keeping out CHL kids.

I have heard a lot of self defensive and reflexive gibber-jabber about some absurdly childish puffery about state pride. nice. Don't care. The topic is, and has always been, about the NCAA keeping out CHL kids. For those who discount my understanding that Mariucci was a key player in this rule's creation -- I welcome evidence to the contrary. But none of that changes the core issue: the NCAA forbids CHL kids from playing. Why is that? And is it valid? I say no.

I think you are working this from the wrong end. Go to Canada, and get the MJ teams to change to be actual amateurs, and then all these players can join the NCAA. You would be a hero to dozens.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Just some fun reading. This is the end result of the NCAA study. No names, no places, no other agenda is discussed. It makes for an interesting historical read. I am willing to retract my remarks about Mariucci, simply because they are not helpful and I haven't found his fingerprints and at the time of the implimentation of the CHL rule, he was a very old man. I am sure he held some sway, and he may have had a hand in launching the investigation by the NCAA into the CHL players . . . but there is no proof that I can find by just randomly passing time through the internet.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/NCAANewsArchive/1980/19800715.pdf

When you find evidence that "Minnesota's municipal-based youth hockey system" is the "the real culprit of the NCAA vs. CHL nonsense", let us know. From reading the article you just posted, it looks to me like this decision was made by a large governing body made up of officials from a multitude of Unversities as well as NCAA officials.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Gee, we pretty much seem to be in agreement here. Those of us who believe that CHLers should be eligible for the NCAA tend to agree that there is little difference between the CHL and Junior A leagues such as the USHL, certainly not enough for them to be blacklisted by the NCAA.

Now obviously if a hockey player plays in the AHL or the NHL before playing or going back to the CHL, well sure, he should be considered a pro and barred from the NCAA. (FWIW, that same player is not currently prevented from playing in the CIS ...)

P.S. Because I'm also a fan of the CIS, I don't mind things the way they are now. I just get bent out of shape when folks start saying that the CHL is awful for "poaching" players from the NCAA, or for presuming that the NCAA is currently developing players for the NHL to the same degree as the CHL, which they are not ... yet.

NHL teams also pay for players from the CHL to attend their prospect camps, this is not allowed under NCAA rules. NCAA players can attend, but they have to cover the costs themselves.

I'm not in favor of having players be eligible for playing in the NCAA after they have exhausted their CHL eligibility because I believe that it would reduce the quality of players that play in the NCAA system. As long as players who have signed NHL contracts are able to play in the CHL (and thus be effectively paid by the NHL club to play hockey for the MJ team) and the NHL can effectively use it as a minor league, my opinion isn't going to change.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Problem is, they weren't MY facts. Again, believe what you want. Until I see concreate evidence that shows Eaves is wrong, I will believe him. And no offense, this will be my last reply to this topic because the back and forth is getting really old. Honestly, no offense, but this is going no where.

Well, I'm being stubborn because of your dismissal of any facts I present and your blind faith in Coach Eaves, who is only human and just maybe could have misspoke in repeating something he heard or read somewhere.

So one sure fact. At the 2010 World Hockey Summit in Toronto http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/140382/la_id/1.htm Slavomir Lener of the IIHF made a presentation "Junior Development in the World". On page/slide 4 he states -- Percentage of Europeans in the NHL 2009-10: 23.8 percent.

Whereas Coach Eaves stated the NHL was one-third CHL, one-third NCAA and one-third from Europe. The IIHF states Europeans make up less than one quarter of the NHL. So Eaves was wrong about the 1/3 European bit. So he was wrong. Yes, I'm now being pedantic because you infuriatingly keep asking for concrete evidence that Eaves is wrong. Okay, I have facts now for the European part of the mix, and I'm still looking for reliable stats for the NCAA and CHL, but I'm pretty sure I've proved Eaves is not correct about the equality of the CHL/NCAA/Europe, unless 1/3 = 1/4.

Geesh, go ahead and ignore me, but don't ignore the facts we have.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Well, I'm being stubborn because of your dismissal of any facts I present and your blind faith in Coach Eaves, who is only human and just maybe could have misspoke in repeating something he heard or read somewhere.

So one sure fact. At the 2010 World Hockey Summit in Toronto http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/140382/la_id/1.htm Slavomir Lener of the IIHF made a presentation "Junior Development in the World". On page/slide 4 he states -- Percentage of Europeans in the NHL 2009-10: 23.8 percent.

Whereas Coach Eaves stated the NHL was one-third CHL, one-third NCAA and one-third from Europe. The IIHF states Europeans make up less than one quarter of the NHL. So Eaves was wrong about the 1/3 European bit. So he was wrong. Yes, I'm now being pedantic because you infuriatingly keep asking for concrete evidence that Eaves is wrong. Okay, I have facts now for the European part of the mix, and I'm still looking for reliable stats for the NCAA and CHL, but I'm pretty sure I've proved Eaves is not correct about the equality of the CHL/NCAA/Europe, unless 1/3 = 1/4.

Geesh, go ahead and ignore me, but don't ignore the facts we have.

And I have said numerous times in this thread, coach Eaves isn't the only person I have heard (or read) say that. That one just stands out in my mind because it was a very recent article. I'm just not overly motivated to go back and find the other sources because to be honest I don't care all that much. I've moved on.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

NHL teams also pay for players from the CHL to attend their prospect camps, this is not allowed under NCAA rules. NCAA players can attend, but they have to cover the costs themselves.

I'm not in favor of having players be eligible for playing in the NCAA after they have exhausted their CHL eligibility because I believe that it would reduce the quality of players that play in the NCAA system. As long as players who have signed NHL contracts are able to play in the CHL (and thus be effectively paid by the NHL club to play hockey for the MJ team) and the NHL can effectively use it as a minor league, my opinion isn't going to change.

I'm not sure why it matters if the NHL picks up the expenses for a CHL player who attends a development camp.

I'm not so entrenched in the thought that players who exhaust their eligibility in the CHL should be eligible for the NCAA. I'd prefer to see hockey players not get blacklisted for playing one shift in an MJ exhibition game. Some sort of rule like the NHL uses - if they play a Major Junior player more than 9 (10?) games they have to keep him with the club and can't send him back to Junior or the AHL. Like others, I would like to see the NCAA allow hockey players to get a taste of Major Junior and be allowed to change their mind and opt for the NCAA. Maybe set the limit at no more than one season with a Major Junior club. They can then enroll at the NCAA program the next academic year if that is what they want to do. What happened to second chances in life, especially when you are often dealing with minors in the eyes of the law.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

And I have said numerous times in this thread, coach Eaves isn't the only person I have heard (or read) say that. That one just stands out in my mind because it was a very recent article. I'm just not overly motivated to go back and find the other sources because to be honest I don't care all that much. I've moved on.

And I keep stating that whoever says that the NHL is 1/3 European is wrong (ask the IIHF!), and therefore whoever states that the NHL is divided equally among from the NCAA, CHL and Europe has to be wrong as well. But rather than admit that you just might be wrong (or the people you read are mistaken), you don't care that much and are moving on. Nice. How to peeve off a detail and fact focused person like me.

 

[GoBeavers]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

This is not rocket science kids...Quanthockey.com. Canada 54.2%, US 24.1%, EUR 21.6%

Well, I'm being stubborn because of your dismissal of any facts I present and your blind faith in Coach Eaves, who is only human and just maybe could have misspoke in repeating something he heard or read somewhere.

So one sure fact. At the 2010 World Hockey Summit in Toronto http://www.hockeycanada.ca/index.php/ci_id/140382/la_id/1.htm Slavomir Lener of the IIHF made a presentation "Junior Development in the World". On page/slide 4 he states -- Percentage of Europeans in the NHL 2009-10: 23.8 percent.

Whereas Coach Eaves stated the NHL was one-third CHL, one-third NCAA and one-third from Europe. The IIHF states Europeans make up less than one quarter of the NHL. So Eaves was wrong about the 1/3 European bit. So he was wrong. Yes, I'm now being pedantic because you infuriatingly keep asking for concrete evidence that Eaves is wrong. Okay, I have facts now for the European part of the mix, and I'm still looking for reliable stats for the NCAA and CHL, but I'm pretty sure I've proved Eaves is not correct about the equality of the CHL/NCAA/Europe, unless 1/3 = 1/4.

Geesh, go ahead and ignore me, but don't ignore the facts we have.

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I'm not sure why it matters if the NHL picks up the expenses for a CHL player who attends a development camp.

I'm not so entrenched in the thought that players who exhaust their eligibility in the CHL should be eligible for the NCAA. I'd prefer to see hockey players not get blacklisted for playing one shift in an MJ exhibition game. Some sort of rule like the NHL uses - if they play a Major Junior player more than 9 (10?) games they have to keep him with the club and can't send him back to Junior or the AHL. Like others, I would like to see the NCAA allow hockey players to get a taste of Major Junior and be allowed to change their mind and opt for the NCAA. Maybe set the limit at no more than one season with a Major Junior club. They can then enroll at the NCAA program the next academic year if that is what they want to do. What happened to second chances in life, especially when you are often dealing with minors in the eyes of the law.

Because in the eyes of the NCAA, those are bonuses to the student for being an athlete from an outside organization and are thus impermissible benefits.

If the player is under 18, it is the parents responsibility to help the athlete make an informed choice.

At best I'd be willing to compromise is: A player could play in exhibition games and attend a tryout/training camp provided that none of that occurred after the player's 18th birthday and they were not on a regular season roster and can keep full eligibility. The player may make a regular season roster but play in 10 or fewer games before the players 18th birthday, the player may join a NCAA team but the player will only have 3 years of eligibility remaining and have to sit out for a season (same as a transfer). I'd want to prevent MJ teams from just cycling through players and cutting players they didn't project as top 6 F or top 4 D after one season and tell them to just go play in the NCAAs or be able to tell players "Just come and try us out for a year, if you don't like it you can always go join that NCAA team"

 

[Almington]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

This is not rocket science kids...Quanthockey.com. Canada 54.2%, US 24.1%, EUR 21.6%

That is US and Canadian born not the NCAA vs CHL breakdown.

 

[GoBeavers]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

www.eupnews.com/2011/04/northern-junior-hockey-watch-chl-vs-ncaa/

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

And I keep stating that whoever says that the NHL is 1/3 European is wrong (ask the IIHF!), and therefore whoever states that the NHL is divided equally among from the NCAA, CHL and Europe has to be wrong as well. But rather than admit that you just might be wrong (or the people you read are mistaken), you don't care that much and are moving on. Nice. How to peeve off a detail and fact focused person like me.

Was never my intention to peeve you off. If it helps, I do admit there is the possibility that what I read was wrong. I've admitted that I don't have the numbers, I just read that in a number of different places. My guess is that it isn't quite 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, but is closer than the 3/1 ratio that some here suggest. To be honest though, and this isn't a slight on you, it really doesn't matter enough to me at this point to argue about.