Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

If you dropped the chip off your shoulder your point might have a chance to shine through. Argue the merits of your proposal instead of waging a war of words against an apparently sworn enemy.

I promise you I don't have any chip on my shoulder about Minnesota. I don't, as a rule, think about Minnesota at all, let alone minnesota hockey.

And, just so we're all clear: Michigan hockey is doing great.. So is New England hockey. Upstate NY hockey is doing well. I assume Alaska hockey is doing fine.

All of that said: why the need for a protectionist rule? This rule harms NCAA hockey teams, and otherwise does nothing. Its a protectionist rule only the rubes in the NCAA could dream up. You Minnesotans need to lighten up a bit -- this isn't specifically about Minnesota, except that the rule was promulgated by Minnesotans. (And no, I don't have a copy of the minutes of the meeting of the NCAA 40 years ago enacting this rule. I guess I thought it was common knowledge).

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I promise you I don't have any chip on my shoulder about Minnesota. I don't, as a rule, think about Minnesota at all, let alone minnesota hockey.

And, just so we're all clear: Michigan hockey is doing great.. So is New England hockey. Upstate NY hockey is doing well. I assume Alaska hockey is doing fine.

All of that said: why the need for a protectionist rule? This rule harms NCAA hockey teams, and otherwise does nothing. Its a protectionist rule only the rubes in the NCAA could dream up. You Minnesotans need to lighten up a bit -- this isn't specifically about Minnesota, except that the rule was promulgated by Minnesotans. (And no, I don't have a copy of the minutes of the meeting of the NCAA 40 years ago enacting this rule. I guess I thought it was common knowledge).

Minnesota Hockey is concerned about Minnesota Hockey. Most of us Minnesotans like the fact that we give our kids as many opportunites to play as possible, and we take pride in watching our own play. That doesn't mean we all want to dictate whom you have play for you.

It is true that the likes of John Mariucci and Herb Brooks were in favor of this rule, and many attribute where Minnesota Hockey is today to what they did to create opportunities for kids to play IN MINNESOTA. They also worked hard to get UMD and SCSU to the D1 level, and were major factors in Minnesota's "only recruit from within state" policy. Mariucci also refused to play Denver for a number of years because of the age of their roster (despite common misconceptions, it had nothing to do with the nationality of their roster).

However, to say that guys like Mariucci, Brooks, and others involved with Minnesota Hockey are the SOLE reason we have this rule is ridiculous. If you think AHAUS and now USA Hockey do everything just because Minnesota Hockey wants it that way, you've lost your mind. Case in point, the recent change to the Pewee Checking Rule.

 

[goldy_331]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Wow, 74 more members. That sure is significant.
http://unitedstatesofhockey.com/201...rpasses-500000-registered-players-in-2010-11/

It is when coming from about half the base population to draw from.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

It is when coming from about half the base population to draw from.

I guess he doesn't understand percentages.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Oooooh, percentages. See, I didn't get that part. Oh, I see now. Oh, yeah, well. That is . . . something there. Yup. That is, really, um, something. How does that saying go? "That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee."

Anyhoo . . . so we all agree, then? The ban on CHL players should be dropped? Good.

And its about time.

Now that its settled, perhaps US College Hockey Inc. can get back to selling the game to fans with money and TV sets. Improving the overall interest of the sport would improve the financial stregnth of the college game, and that would be a great benefit to everyone.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Oooooh, percentages. See, I didn't get that part. Oh, I see now. Oh, yeah, well. That is . . . something there. Yup. That is, really, um, something. How does that saying go? "That and a buck will get you a cup of coffee."

Anyhoo . . . so we all agree, then? The ban on CHL players should be dropped? Good.

And its about time.

Now that its settled, perhaps US College Hockey Inc. can get back to selling the game to fans with money and TV sets. Improving the overall interest of the sport would improve the financial stregnth of the college game, and that would be a great benefit to everyone.

Got nothing, ha?

Come on, YOU'RE the one who made this an indictment on Minnesota Hockey. Now all you have is a lame attempt at sarcasm? I guess the fact that Michigan Youth Hockey will always be in Minnesota's shadow is "settled" too then, ha?

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Got nothing, ha?

Come on, YOU'RE the one who made this an indictment on Minnesota Hockey. Now all you have is a lame attempt at sarcasm? I guess the fact that Michigan Youth Hockey will always be in Minnesota's shadow is "settled" too then, ha?

I made no such remark, ever. In my life. Anywhere. At any time. I never indicted Minnesota hockey except for its involvement in the creation of the NCAA's CHL ban. You Minnesota types are awfully defensive. Disreali had a nice quote about statistics and lies . . . but I prefer this:

"He doesn't listen to what I say; quotes what I never said; and believes only what he himself says, and [darned] little of that. That man is either a slack headed fool, or he has the makings of a great Prime Minister." Benjamin Disreali, PM.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I made no such remark, ever. In my life. Anywhere. At any time. I never indicted Minnesota hockey except for its involvement in the creation of the NCAA's CHL ban. You Minnesota types are awfully defensive. Disreali had a nice quote about statistics and lies . . . but I prefer this:

"He doesn't listen to what I say; quotes what I never said; and believes only what he himself says, and **** little of that. That man is either a slack headed fool, or he has the makings of a great Prime Minister." Benjamin Disreali, PM.

Blaming the rule on Minnesota Hockey is an indictment of Minnesota Hockey. You're placing the sole blame for the rule on Minnesota Hockey, when in fact, you have absolutely no concrete evidence to support that. And as I pointed it, but you failed to comprehend and refused to reply to, it isn't "common knowledge". Why? Because it is a figment of your warped imagination.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Posted again because Lakerblue either has reading comprehension issues, or is very selective in what he responds to because he knows he's dead wrong.


Minnesota Hockey is concerned about Minnesota Hockey. Most of us Minnesotans like the fact that we give our kids as many opportunites to play as possible, and we take pride in watching our own play. That doesn't mean we all want to dictate whom you have play for you.

It is true that the likes of John Mariucci and Herb Brooks were in favor of this rule, and many attribute where Minnesota Hockey is today to what they did to create opportunities for kids to play IN MINNESOTA. They also worked hard to get UMD and SCSU to the D1 level, and were major factors in Minnesota's "only recruit from within state" policy. Mariucci also refused to play Denver for a number of years because of the age of their roster (despite common misconceptions, it had nothing to do with the nationality of their roster).

However, to say that guys like Mariucci, Brooks, and others involved with Minnesota Hockey are the SOLE reason we have this rule is ridiculous. If you think AHAUS and now USA Hockey do everything just because Minnesota Hockey wants it that way, you've lost your mind. Case in point, the recent change to the Pewee Checking Rule.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Blaming the rule on Minnesota Hockey is an indictment of Minnesota Hockey. You're placing the sole blame for the rule on Minnesota Hockey, when in fact, you have absolutely no concrete evidence to support that. And as I pointed it, but you failed to comprehend and refused to reply to, it isn't "common knowledge". Why? Because it is a figment of your warped imagination.

So you agree that the implimentation of this rule is an occassion for the placement of BLAME, not praise. You agree that this rule is something for which nobody would want to take the BLAME. You agree that this rule is so unpleasant and improper that whoever dreamed up this thing -- be it Minnesota, Herb Brooks, or Charlie Chaplin -- should be assigned BLAME. BLAME which denotes poor conduct, poor decision making, and poor implimentation.

I feel the same way. Once again, we agree.

Why are we arguing, then. Why not just end the rule and end the ban? Nothing more to argue about, right? My mention of Minnesota was based on the well known belief that the CHL ban originated out of Minnesota, and Marriucci in particular. But even if that not true, this rule is obviously nothing you want to take ownership of, right?

So why defend it? In fact, you aren't defending it. In fact, you are getting hot under the collar at the mere thought, the mere mention, by some random dude in Sault Ste. Marie, that somebody from or in Minnesota, 40 years ago, had a hand in getting this rule passed. Good. We agree.

Lets drop the rule -- as we argree. Its a win-win.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

So you agree that the implimentation of this rule is an occassion for the placement of BLAME, not praise. You agree that this rule is something for which nobody would want to take the BLAME. You agree that this rule is so unpleasant and improper that whoever dreamed up this thing -- be it Minnesota, Herb Brooks, or Charlie Chaplin -- should be assigned BLAME. BLAME which denotes poor conduct, poor decision making, and poor implimentation.

I feel the same way. Once again, we agree.

Why are we arguing, then. Why not just end the rule and end the ban? Nothing more to argue about, right? My mention of Minnesota was based on the well known belief that the CHL ban originated out of Minnesota, and Marriucci in particular. But even if that not true, this rule is obviously nothing you want to take ownership of, right?

So why defend it? In fact, you aren't defending it. In fact, you are getting hot under the collar at the mere thought, the mere mention, by some random dude in Sault Ste. Marie, that somebody from or in Minnesota, 40 years ago, had a hand in getting this rule passed. But lets leave that aside -- because obviously the mere mention of Minnesota in anything but pretty colors seems to trigger a curious response akin to a monkey stepping on a live wire -- you see this rule as so bad that you don't want it associated with your hockey heros of old.

Good.

Lets drop the rule -- as we argree. Its a win-win.

I don't think I've had time to even discuss the merits of the rule in this forum. I've been too busy responding to your delusional rants. Still waiting for you to stop skirting the fact that you are absolutely wrong about the basis of the rule being Minnesota Hockey. I can keep pulling you back on topic all day pal. Admit you're wrong about that, then we can talk about the merits of the rule.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I too wish I had the numbers, but am going off of what I have read in numerous sources (one of which I posted a link to). If you want to call these sources inaccurate, that is fine, but I have yet to see anything that definatively proves that they are wrong.

Well I just demonstrated a sample of two NHL teams that doesn't show NCAA equating CHL for NHL development. Eaves in that article you linked to pulls that number apparently out of the air. Just because lots of people say you need 7 or 8 glasses of water everyday doesn't make it a fact (If you look it up, and I have, there is no scientific basis for that fact that seemingly 'everybody knows'). The IIHF did a detailed study over several years showing Europeans average between 25-30% of NHL players. Their study ended in 2006. I read it today on the IIHF website. I accept that as a fact (and agree the ratios for NHL players may have changed since 2006 due to the rise of the KHL ...). But no offense, just because Eaves says something to a writer doesn't make it a fact.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Well I just demonstrated a sample of two NHL teams that doesn't show NCAA equating CHL for NHL development. Eaves in that article you linked to pulls that number apparently out of the air. Just because lots of people say you need 7 or 8 glasses of water everyday doesn't make it a fact (If you look it up, and I have, there is no scientific basis for that fact that seemingly 'everybody knows'). The IIHF did a detailed study over several years showing Europeans average between 25-30% of NHL players. Their study ended in 2006. I read it today on the IIHF website. I accept that as a fact (and agree the ratios for NHL players may have changed since 2006 due to the rise of the KHL ...). But no offense, just because Eaves says something to a writer doesn't make it a fact.

Take it up with Mike Eaves or anyone else in a position to comment on the topic. I don't have the numbers, and so far neither do you. Although, the IIHF study seems to agree with the statements I've read that 1/3 of NHL players are from the CHL, 1/3 from Europe, and 1/3 from the NCAA.

And by your logic, I should trust you because what Mike Eaves says might not be right? Who are you and what assurances do I have that you are right?

 

[SanTropez]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I don't think I had time to even discuss the merits of the rule in this forum. I've been too busy responding to your delusional rants. Still waiting for you to stop skirting the fact that you are absolutely wrong about the basis of the rule being Minnesota Hockey. I can keep pulling you back on topic all day pal. Admit you're wrong about that, then we can talk about the merits of the rule.

The topic is the NCAA ban on CHL players. If you'd like to discuss the merits of the Minnesota youth hockey development system, please feel free. You can even start your own thread. People might even want to read it and join into the topic. Heck, there might even be a few random Minnesotans who want to play, too. Thats great.

BUt, as we now know (right?) this is a thread about the NCAA ban on CHL players.

This topic might include, perhaps, a discussion as to why that ban exists. It might include a discussion about whether the ban is good or bad. It might include opnions from good posters who feel strongly on the topic, or are just bored at work and feel not-so-strong-but-like-to-debate. As for the origination of the rule, it came from Minnesota -- which should not be a problem for you if you like the rule, right? I mean, if you like the rule, then take pride and ownership in the creation of such a fine legislative fiat that comes from your little state. Congrads. But if you feel that the assignment of the origination of the rule is improperly placed on Minnesota -- but you dislike the rule anyhow -- then why worry about Minnesota youth hockey or any of that discussion (which, as noted, can be thoroughly discussed in another thread at your leisure)? Why not just eliminate the rule and cleanse history of its origination, regardless of its geographic location?

Yes, I think we have a solution. Drop the rule, right? You wouldn't want that dirty blame-ridden rule to sully your heros, right? Even by inference, right? Its such a bad rule you wouldn't want that, right?

There we go.

A handshake, a cigar, and a good scotch to celebrate the coming together of minds for a common good.

Strong work everyone. Strong work today. Much accomplished.

Next up: The Greek banking crisis.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Take it up with Mike Eaves or anyone else in a position to comment on the topic. I don't have the numbers, and so far neither do you. Although, the IIHF study seems to agree with the statements I've read that 1/3 of NHL players are from the CHL, 1/3 from Europe, and 1/3 from the NCAA.

And by your logic, I should trust you because what Mike Eaves says might not be right? Who are you and what assurances do I have that you are right?

Don't agree with your math. The IIHF study (which was all about why young Europeans should develop in Europe and not in Major Junior or the AHL) gives percentages of Euros in the NHL. That's it. It doesn't speak to percentages of CHL/NCAA. If we accept that Euros were averaging 25-30% of the NHL up to 2006, that leaves 70-75% of the NHL to divvy up between the NCAA and CHL. I'd like to see you provide a source that somehow that is split equally between the NCAA and CHL, because I'm not seeing it.

As for me, you can easily reproduce my sample of Boston and Vancouver and get the same results.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The topic is the NCAA ban on CHL players. If you'd like to discuss the merits of the Minnesota youth hockey development system, please feel free. You can even start your own thread. People might even want to read it and join into the topic. Heck, there might even be a few random Minnesotans who want to play, too. Thats great.

BUt, as we now know (right?) this is a thread about the NCAA ban on CHL players.

This topic might include, perhaps, a discussion as to why that ban exists. It might include a discussion about whether the ban is good or bad. It might include opnions from good posters who feel strongly on the topic, or are just bored at work and feel not-so-strong-but-like-to-debate. As for the origination of the rule, it came from Minnesota -- which should not be a problem for you if you like the rule, right? I mean, if you like the rule, then take pride and ownership in the creation of such a fine legislative fiat that comes from your little state. Congrads. But if you feel that the assignment of the origination of the rule is improperly placed on Minnesota -- but you dislike the rule anyhow -- then why worry about Minnesota youth hockey or any of that discussion (which, as noted, can be thoroughly discussed in another thread at your leisure)? Why not just eliminate the rule and cleanse history of its origination, regardless of its geographic location?

Yes, I think we have a solution. Drop the rule, right? You wouldn't want that dirty blame-ridden rule to sully your heros, right? Even by inference, right? Its such a bad rule you wouldn't want that, right?

There we go.

A handshake, a cigar, and a good scotch to celebrate the coming together of minds for a common good.

Strong work everyone. Strong work today. Much accomplished.

Next up: The Greek banking crisis.

Still waiting for you to admit you have absoutely no factual evidence to support your asinine comment that Minnesota Hockey is soley responsible for CHL players not being allowed to play in the NCAA.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Don't agree with your math. The IIHF study (which was all about why young Europeans should develop in Europe and not in Major Junior or the AHL) gives percentages of Euros in the NHL. That's it. It doesn't speak to percentages of CHL/NCAA. If we accept that Euros were averaging 25-30% of the NHL up to 2006, that leaves 70-75% of the NHL to divvy up between the NCAA and CHL. I'd like to see you provide a source that somehow that is split equally between the NCAA and CHL, because I'm not seeing it.

As for me, you can easily reproduce my sample of Boston and Vancouver and get the same results.

You missed my point. Eaves said the breakdown was 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. Your study indicated that roughly 1/3 of NHL players are from Europe. That is inline with Eaves comments. I recognize that it didn't have anything to do with the NCAA.

And sorry, but I trust Eaves more than I trust you. No offense.

 

[hobeydog]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

If you want to see how aggressive CHL teams are in signing NCAA players, go to the Sarnia Sting site and watch the video of their presser announcing the signing of Connor Murphy.


sarniasting.com

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I guess he doesn't understand percentages.

Not to worry, I understand statistics. I also appreciate that the two states have very different demographics. One way or another, Michigan hockey doesn’t need me to cheerlead for it. I am still waiting for a reasonable justification for excluding CHL players from NCAA hockey. While I absolutely hate the actions of Mr. Miller, Murphy, Tinordi, Boucher, etc., I acknowledge that it is time to swallow some pride and to modify this outdated rule.