Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

[First Time Long Time]

. . . Or perhaps the question is why are Major Junior Leagues losing top players to the NCAA? Who is determining the winner and loser of this alleged war? Colleges show the most visible loss when a player decommits -- but in actuality those de-commitments are relatively few and far between, and are usually attached to much press coverage.

Conversely, many, many, many 15-16 year olds are drafted by the Major Junior who decide instead to play USHL or Provincial Junior A with an eye towards NCAA hockey. I would guess that most of the top Provincial league players were drafted by CHL teams.

And there is MUCH, MUCH more misinformation floating around the US about Major Junior than there is in Canada about the NCAA route. In the U.S., we hear absurd stories of CHL teams making massive under-the-table payments, apartments, cars. None of that is true. BUT we sure do hear a whole lot of cases of NCAA players in FF and BB getting those types of perks, don't we? Isn't it perhaps hypocritical to claim that an NCAA institution is the victim of improper perks and payoffs?

BUt more to the point -- and I've asked this before -- what is the difference between Junior A and Major Junior? They all get a place to live, a living stippend, a food budget, players are drafted, recruited, and traded (trades taking place in mid-year, and the players have no means of objecting other than quitting). There are no salaries for players in either league. Why does the NCAA handcuff itself by declaring one form of junior hockey good -- and another form of junior hockey (with the better palyers, BTW) bad? Why not allow a kid to play CHL until he is 18 or the end of his high school senior year? (I know the answer, Mr. Mariucci and all those who seek to protect Minnesota high school hockey -- I ask only rhetorically).

In full mea culpa, I myself played in North Bay for the Centennials many (many) years ago. (And in the interest of full disclosure, I played for two years -- that is to say I practiced hard for two years, and played about 1/2 the time). And I have a nephew who just recently opted to play CHL hockey this spring. But I am a life-long passionate supporter of LSSU and NCAA hockey. I sort of have feet in both camps. I just think the if you had to choose between two organizations which maybe making questionable recruiting tactics -- my best bet would fall on the
NCAA.

So no CHL kids or their families get under the table payments?
You can prove that?
Sorry where there is smoke, there is fire.
As for the big difference, CHL kids can play in that league and be signed to an NHL contract, not allowed in the NCAA, and I don't believe it's allowed in Junior A either.
You can't play against "pros" and play that sport in the NCAA.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

So no CHL kids or their families get under the table payments?
You can prove that?
Sorry where there is smoke, there is fire.
.

The better question is do you or ,more importantly, Paul Kelly have any proof that they do? I am sure there are about 1/2 dozen OHL clubs that would kill for that proof. The reality is that it is much easier for Paul Kelly to justify losing players because of "big money" influence than real reasons such as both the high end players and their NHL clubs feeling the CHL is a better route for developmental purposes.

 

[First Time Long Time]

The better question is do you or ,more importantly, Paul Kelly have any proof that they do? I am sure there are about 1/2 dozen OHL clubs that would kill for that proof. The reality is that it is much easier for Paul Kelly to justify losing players because of "big money" influence than real reasons such as both the high end players and their NHL clubs feeling the CHL is a better route for developmental purposes.

No I can't prove it.
Paul Kelly I believe was threatened with a lawsuit for saying it by Sarnia I think and then nothing came of it.
As for it being a "better" route, I think that depends on the individual player.

 

[Lakerblue]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I guess I'd like to see some examples of CHL kids who have been paid, either in cash or goodies. Any names? Any expose from the Globe and Mail exposing such tactics in the CHL? Because we all know darned well there are lots and lots of stories of NCAA abuses. Its easy to start a rumor -- but if that is all College Hockey has to fight back with, then no wonder they are losing this alleged recruiting war.

When I was in the OHL, I didn't know anybody who had jack squat for money or cars. We all had to go to school, even Americans like myself had to go to Grade 13. After that, at least in North Bay and most other teams, the over-agers had to attend college (at North Bay the team required at least 9 credit hours . . . and I am not so naive to beleive this had anything do with education -- going to classes at school kept the boys busy during the day before practice). At the time, most of the kids I played with were either not interested in college, or had bad experiences with American and college coaches. (A good friend of mine played in Ontario B for the Siskins and Jerry York brought him to BGSU. York left a year later, and the new BGSU coach was rabidly anti-Canadian). I was told by one particular college assistant coach (D-III . . .like I said I was BARELY at the CHL level), when hearing of my choice to move to North Bay because I wanted to play under Bert Templeton, "The CHL is for retards and beer puking Canadians anyhow."

It amazes me that the NCAA can take such an absurd stand against the CHL with a straight face. What is worse, are the legions of NCAA fans actually believing what these fools are peddling.

And I go back to my original pleading: Who has been paid by the CHL?

And as for advisors: You know why they have unpaid advisors? Because of the NCAA. This isn't some mysterious Canadian entity pushing kids solely to the CHL on behalf of agents. If the NCAA rule did not exist, there would be no reason for a "Family Advisor," as most talented Canadian kids would be represented by agents without any fear of NCAA sanction. So the family advisors are solely working at the behest of agents on behalf of the CHL? Like the family advisors who sent Toews and Oshie to North Dakota? Or the family advisors who send kids, every year, to the NCAA? What is wrong with a family getting honest advice? If the NCAA didn't have its absurd, xenophobic "high school hockey biased" anti-CHL rule, there would be no need for family advisors.

Geez, you guys are tough on 15 year olds and their families. NCAA hockey is an amazing product. I prefer the passion and excellence of the NCAA far beyond the relatively lower level palyed by 17-18 year old kids in the CHL. Its not even the same equation -- its apples and oranges. As a rule, the college palyers are older, faster, bigger. 16 and 17 and 18 year olds don't generally play college hockey -- but most OHL teams are 85% 17-18 year olds. You can have a few under-agers (16 year olds) and a few over-agers (19 year olds). There is no direct competition. And there would not be any competition if the NCAA grew up.

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

. . . Or perhaps the question is why are Major Junior Leagues losing top players to the NCAA? Who is determining the winner and loser of this alleged war? Colleges show the most visible loss when a player decommits -- but in actuality those de-commitments are relatively few and far between, and are usually attached to much press coverage.

Conversely, many, many, many 15-16 year olds are drafted by the Major Junior who decide instead to play USHL or Provincial Junior A with an eye towards NCAA hockey. I would guess that most of the top Provincial league players were drafted by CHL teams.

And there is MUCH, MUCH more misinformation floating around the US about Major Junior than there is in Canada about the NCAA route. In the U.S., we hear absurd stories of CHL teams making massive under-the-table payments, apartments, cars. None of that is true. BUT we sure do hear a whole lot of cases of NCAA players in FF and BB getting those types of perks, don't we? Isn't it perhaps hypocritical to claim that an NCAA institution is the victim of improper perks and payoffs?

BUt more to the point -- and I've asked this before -- what is the difference between Junior A and Major Junior? They all get a place to live, a living stippend, a food budget, players are drafted, recruited, and traded (trades taking place in mid-year, and the players have no means of objecting other than quitting). There are no salaries for players in either league. Why does the NCAA handcuff itself by declaring one form of junior hockey good -- and another form of junior hockey (with the better palyers, BTW) bad? Why not allow a kid to play CHL until he is 18 or the end of his high school senior year? (I know the answer, Mr. Mariucci and all those who seek to protect Minnesota high school hockey -- I ask only rhetorically).

In full mea culpa, I myself played in North Bay for the Centennials many (many) years ago. (And in the interest of full disclosure, I played for two years -- that is to say I practiced hard for two years, and played about 1/2 the time). And I have a nephew who just recently opted to play CHL hockey this spring. But I am a life-long passionate supporter of LSSU and NCAA hockey. I sort of have feet in both camps. I just think the if you had to choose between two organizations which maybe making questionable recruiting tactics -- my best bet would fall on the NCAA.

The answer is the discrepancy of talent lost to talent gained. College hockey deprives the CHL of bottom six talent whereas the CHL deprives the NCAA of first round NHL draft picks. One has a much greater impact than the other. Why exactly did your nephew opt for the CHL?

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

No I can't prove it.
Paul Kelly I believe was threatened with a lawsuit for saying it by Sarnia I think and then nothing came of it.
As for it being a "better" route, I think that depends on the individual player.

Again..where is your proof? An alleged threatened law suit hardly constitutes any sort of definitive proof of misdeeds by CHL teams. The fact is that if Paul Kelly did indeed have any sort of proof, such material would have been given to both public entities and CHL clubs.....no such proof exists of course and Paul Kelly et al are simply using lame excuses as to why the NCAA is consistently losing top prospects to the CHL.

 

[First Time Long Time]

Again..where is your proof? An alleged threatened law suit hardly constitutes any sort of definitive proof of misdeeds by CHL teams. The fact is that if Paul Kelly did indeed have any sort of proof, such material would have been given to both public entities and CHL clubs.....no such proof exists of course and Paul Kelly et al are simply using lame excuses as to why the NCAA is consistently losing top prospects to the CHL.

It was actually Jeff Jackson and the suing parties were to be Kitchner and Windsor after Cam Fowler was signed.
As for proof, unfortunately the article doesn't exist online anymore as the Windsor Star doesn't keep them around that long.
I can't prove they are getting paid, but you also can't prove they aren't.
For me though, as I said, the bigger issue is the CHL allows players under NHL contract to play.
No NCAA player can do that and that is what makes them ineligble.
You can't play against "pros" and then go play that same sport in the NCAA.
St. Cloud lost a player from Switzerland because of that.
He wasn't being paid, but he was playing in a league where players were being paid and that made him ineligible.

 

[Happy]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

The better question is do you or ,more importantly, Paul Kelly have any proof that they do? I am sure there are about 1/2 dozen OHL clubs that would kill for that proof. The reality is that it is much easier for Paul Kelly to justify losing players because of "big money" influence than real reasons such as both the high end players and their NHL clubs feeling the CHL is a better route for developmental purposes.

many NHL clubs want to get the kid under contract, so they can control him, and they can't do that in the NCAA. Can you imagine how much happier Phoenix would have been to have had Wheeler in MJ, instead of losing him to free agency through college.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

The reality is that it is much easier for Paul Kelly to justify losing players because of "big money" influence than real reasons such as both the high end players and their NHL clubs feeling the CHL is a better route for developmental purposes.

Considering there are roughly the same number of players in the NHL who went the NCAA route as there are players who went the CHL route, I would say this comment is categorically false.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Considering there are roughly the same number of players in the NHL who went the NCAA route as there are players who went the CHL route, I would say this comment is categorically false.

thank you.

but I think we all know what jnacc's response to this will be

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Considering there are roughly the same number of players in the NHL who went the NCAA route as there are players who went the CHL route, I would say this comment is categorically false.

One has to wonder then why players like LeBlanc, Tinordi, Gibson et al defected after they were drafted by NHL clubs. I was not aware that there were as many NCAA alums in the NHL as there were CHL players....do you have a source for that. I'm much too lazy to look up every NHL team but I did look at the top 8 from last year and counted all regular players (those with at least 50 games played) and the numbers were 43 former NCAA players as opposed to 129 CHL alums....a 3-1 gap.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

One has to wonder then why players like LeBlanc, Tinordi, Gibson et al defected after they were drafted by NHL clubs. I was not aware that there were as many NCAA alums in the NHL as there were CHL players....do you have a source for that. I'm much too lazy to look up every NHL team but I did look at the top 8 from last year and counted all regular players (those with at least 50 games played) and the numbers were 43 former NCAA players as opposed to 129 CHL alums....a 3-1 gap.

I don't have the actual numbers handy, but this is but on recent article in which I've read that. The article also does a decent job of explaining some of the possible reasons for recent defections.

http://bit.ly/nUdxOK

Yet, as Eaves and his college peers are quick to point out, NHL rosters currently have the same percentage of talent from colleges, Major Junior and European leagues.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I don't have the actual numbers handy, but this is but on recent article in which I've read that. The article also does a decent job of explaining some of the possible reasons for recent defections.

http://bit.ly/nUdxOK

Yet, as Eaves and his college peers are quick to point out, NHL rosters currently have the same percentage of talent from colleges, Major Junior and European leagues.

This trend began happening a couple of years ago so I don't really see why Eaves feels that it is because of the current re-forming of conferences. I'd sure like to know where Eaves got his numbers as well as I believe they are not accurate.

 

[Split-N]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

One has to wonder then why players like LeBlanc, Tinordi, Gibson et al defected after they were drafted by NHL clubs. I was not aware that there were as many NCAA alums in the NHL as there were CHL players....do you have a source for that. I'm much too lazy to look up every NHL team but I did look at the top 8 from last year and counted all regular players (those with at least 50 games played) and the numbers were 43 former NCAA players as opposed to 129 CHL alums....a 3-1 gap.

I also question the assertion that the NCAA-MJ split is roughly 50-50. Case in point: The reigning Stanley Cup Champs have only one player (Tim Thomas) who came up through the NCAA (Vermont). My guess is the 3-1 gap is fairly accurate.

 

[JDUBBS1280]

This trend began happening a couple of years ago so I don't really see why Eaves feels that it is because of the current re-forming of conferences. I'd sure like to know where Eaves got his numbers as well as I believe they are not accurate.

I've read it in more than a few places, so I' pretty sure it's accurate. Chris Peters at The United States of Hockey also did a recent piece that compared the development path of US players drafted in the first round of the NHL Entry Draft since 2005 and an overwhelming majority took the NCAA route.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

This trend began happening a couple of years ago so I don't really see why Eaves feels that it is because of the current re-forming of conferences. I'd sure like to know where Eaves got his numbers as well as I believe they are not accurate.

Wisconsin alone had somewhere between 14-16 NHL'ers last year. I'd have to believe Nodak and the rats have similar numbers, if so we're up to roughly 45 NCAA guys in the NHL and that's just from 3 teams. I'm sure BU, BC, Mich, DU have more than their share in the SHOW.

 

[AVFC]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

I do not believe that the ratio is 1-1. The stat I have seen thrown around (I think this was from some old USHL literature) is that on a 25-man CHL roster, there is 1 NHL player per roster. On a 28 man NCAA roster, there is .5 NHL players per roster. I have also read that at least 25% of the current NHL played NCAA hockey.

I am curious about the number of kids you would draw to college hockey if you allowed CHL kids to retain NCAA eligibility until they turned 18 (or the completion of that season). Every 16-year-old thinks he is going to play in the NHL some day so I am sure that the CHL resonates with most of them at an early age. After a couple of years, they may be singing a different song. At the same time, I am sure there are a good number of kids in the CHL who have no interest in attending college with or without hockey.

 

[jnacc]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

Wisconsin alone had somewhere between 14-16 NHL'ers last year. I'd have to believe Nodak and the rats have similar numbers, if so we're up to roughly 45 NCAA guys in the NHL and that's just from 3 teams. I'm sure BU, BC, Mich, DU have more than their share in the SHOW.

How many did Canisius have? What about Mankato? Or how about Alaska Fairbanks? My school, LSSU, had a grand total of 2 players and one those just announced his retirement. N.M.U. , Ferris, Tech, Colgate, R.P.I. may all have had one perhaps 2 full time NHL regulars last season. The schools you mentioned provide the bulk of the talent to the NHL.
I looked at 8 NHL rosters and the ratio was 3 CHLers to 1 NCAA.....I think that ratio is more accurate than a 1 to 1.

 

[Ralph Baer]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

How many did Canisius have? What about Mankato? Or how about Alaska Fairbanks? My school, LSSU, had a grand total of 2 players and one those just announced his retirement. N.M.U. , Ferris, Tech, Colgate, R.P.I. may all have had one perhaps 2 full time NHL regulars last season. The schools you mentioned provide the bulk of the talent to the NHL.
I looked at 8 NHL rosters and the ratio was 3 CHLers to 1 NCAA.....I think that ratio is more accurate than a 1 to 1.

Former RPI players played a grand total of one NHL game last season.

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Raids on Collge Hockey Programs

How many did Canisius have? What about Mankato? Or how about Alaska Fairbanks? My school, LSSU, had a grand total of 2 players and one those just announced his retirement. N.M.U. , Ferris, Tech, Colgate, R.P.I. may all have had one perhaps 2 full time NHL regulars last season. The schools you mentioned provide the bulk of the talent to the NHL.
I looked at 8 NHL rosters and the ratio was 3 CHLers to 1 NCAA.....I think that ratio is more accurate than a 1 to 1.

I don't know about the smaller schools. Mankato has Backstrom, maybe 2-3 others. What I do know is that UW/Nodak/Rats/BU/BC/DU/Mich have a ton of players in the show. I'll try and look into totals on this later this week.

Even MSU has 5-6 guys up there. I'm sure Maine has a few along w/Colgate. If there's less than 150 NCAA guys in the NHL I'd be very surprised