Patty Kaz 2012

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

Well Schelling hasn't been to the box at all this season.

She didn't go last year either -- must have forgotten the way!

 

[puckskillz]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

And if we would like to make penalty minutes a huge issue, JLam has cut down considerably from last year in that department. Also, imagine how many more points they could score if they weren't wasting 2 mins in the box! But, I don't think penalty minutes are much of a factor either way

I don't believe penalty minutes is the issue because aggressive players will get penalties. Instead it's the players on-ice reputation which is taken into account within the sportsmanship and character criteria. Is the player furthering the sport and demonstrating what's great about the womens' game or are they delivering two-handed chops behind the play. Players that are hard nosed, work tirelessly, and play with both heart and skill epitomize the sport and do not have to go beyond that to be successful. Last yrs. winner was a great example of skill, tenacity, and great character. What a great model for up and coming players.

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

That might matter if I said Prévost should win; I'm not.

Prévost has been very good in the clutch. Her numbers in four game series versus ...
Minnesota: 2+0=2; 0+2=2; 1+2=3; 0+0=0. Total: 3+4=7
UMD: 1+0=1; 2+2=4; 0+0=0; 0+3=3. Total: 3+5=8
UND: 3+0=3; 0+2=2; 1+3=4; 3+0=3. Total: 7+5=12

So for 12 games against the 3 highest-ranked WCHA opponents = 13+14=27. Clutch.

Maybe she should be getting more consideration, just named to the WCHA Scholar Athlete list for the third year in a row!! BTW no Lams in this group

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

BTW no Lams in this group

Not under "Lams", no. But if you know where to look...

University of North Dakota:
Taylor Dickin (So., F, Winnipeg, MB); Brad Eidsness*** (Sr., G, Chestermere, AB); Jocelyne Lamoureux** (Jr., F, Grand Forks, ND); Monique Lamoureux-Kolls** (Jr., F/D, Grand Forks, ND); Mary Loken** (Jr., F, Roseau, MN); Allison Parizek** (Jr., F, Minot, ND); Margot Miller** (Sr., F, West Bloomfield, MI); Michelle Bonapace-Potvin (Fr., G, Royn-Noranda, QC); Dillon Simpson (So., D, Edmonton, AB); Jordan Slavin** (Jr., D, Erie, CO).

Reasons to hate on Jo and Mo may exist, but lack of academic credentials is not one of them.

 

[northhockey]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

Maybe she should be getting more consideration, just named to the WCHA Scholar Athlete list for the third year in a row!! BTW no Lams in this group

lol oops..

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

Some Kaz hometown press for the Lams. Key points of each:

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/229089/group/homepage/

Idalski points out that other schools have had two of the top three candidates before, but he acknowledges that the players generally had quite a few differences voters could pick out. They’ve never been identical twins, whose differences are only subtle.

If there is a defining trade for each of them, it is Lamoureux’s skill and Lamoureux-Kolls’ versatility.

Lamoureux has pulled off a few stunning moves, including a 360-spin move goal on former Patty Kaz finalist Noora Raty of Minnesota and a between-the-legs move to burn a Wisconsin defenseman.

“I think the skill is one thing,” Idalski says. “There are a lot of players with skill. But the presence of mind, the confidence to try it in big games — it’s not like it’s the 15th goal of a blowout — against top opponents, in special situations? That’s ridiculous. Nobody else does that. Nobody else is making plays like that on that kind of stage.”

Lamoureux-Kolls has been invaluable to UND, which moved her back to defense as the team became thin at the position with injuries.

“The ability to transition the puck and stretch the ice out a little bit and her ability to jump in the transition has been huge,” Idalski said. “She’s everything you could ask for in an offensive defenseman and more. Statistically, she’s producing at that pace while having the responsibility of playing against other teams’ top offensive players and shutting them down. That’s ridiculous. That’s pretty unique.”

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/229135/group/homepage/

In one of the years I was on the committee, one of the Boston colleges had two forwards among the 10 finalists. Since I had not seen either one play, but was very impressed by what I had read and heard about both of them, I called their coach. I asked him which one he would push most for the award. He said he could not choose one over the other. As a committee member, I felt I could not in that case, either, and didn’t vote for either one. Perhaps other voters felt the same, I don’t know. I never asked. I do know neither won the award.

If Jocelyne and Monique are indeed finalists for the Kazmaier Award, that same problem would face voters. How would one pick Jocelyne over Monique, or vice versa?

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

And just to follow up on those articles, there are a couple reasons why I'm not worried about the dilemma

-- There are still some huge games left for UND, two against Minnesota this weekend, possibly a WCHA semifinal against Minnesota, and possibly a final against Wisconsin. There's a reasonable chance one or the other will really distinguish themselves in these higher-stake games.

-- I mentioned before that coaches tend to avoid vote-splitting problems by signaling which of their favorites they prefer, but Idalski makes the fair point that this is tougher to do with two twins. You still have one more way in the Kazmaier process to avoid vote splitting: the committee does have a conference and usually there's an implicit consensus formed about the top candidate on each team. Now, again this will be tougher without a clear endorsement from the coach, and the committee will have some of the same troubles the coach has in distinguishing the two players. But there is at least some hope of the committee coordinating and avoiding vote-splitting.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

Some Kaz hometown press for the Lams...

I asked him which one he would push most for the award. He said he could not choose one over the other. As a committee member, I felt I could not in that case, either, and didn’t vote for either one.

I think that is a bit of copout by the voter. Unless it is a very clearcut decision for the coach, where one is head and shoulders above the other, the coach knows that the player he does not endorse is finished in terms of contending for the award. So if I'm coaching say Darwitz and Wendell, and somebody asks me who is better, the answer comes down to what is meant by "better". Wendell could put together a better highlight reel, but by the end of their college careers, Darwitz was just as effective, maybe even more so. How does a coach then say, "Pick this one and forget her?" That's the job of the voters.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

-- There are still some huge games left for UND, two against Minnesota this weekend, possibly a WCHA semifinal against Minnesota, and possibly a final against Wisconsin. There's a reasonable chance one or the other will really distinguish themselves in these higher-stake games.

The quarterfinal games against BSU could be very high stakes as well, depending on UND's results this weekend.

The funny thing about describing Jo as the the one with "skill", is that when they were at Minnesota, those roles were reversed. Mo was the better scorer, and took part in shootouts while Jo never did. As a center, Jo had the greater defensive responsibility. I'd say each is somewhat of a chameleon and can be what is needed for a particular game.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

The funny thing about describing Jo as the the one with "skill", is that when they were at Minnesota, those roles were reversed. Mo was the better scorer, and took part in shootouts while Jo never did. As a center, Jo had the greater defensive responsibility. I'd say each is somewhat of a chameleon and can be what is needed for a particular game.

Absolutely, and I have not forgotten my first impressions of them.

It may come down to what they've demonstrated on the ice this season. It may be that the criteria better fits Mo since it's supposed to be about all-around play, even if either is capable of either role. Or maybe voters will just coordinate on the one with the higher points or the higher GPA since those are easier to coordinate on and achieve a consensus.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

It may be that the criteria better fits Mo since it's supposed to be about all-around play, even if either is capable of either role.

Jocelyne -- a former goalie -- should strap on the pads and play in net for a couple games. Nothing says versatile like leading the country in points and posting a couple of wins in the crease.

 

[northhockey]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

My personal favorite:

The twins, both juniors, have more points than any junior, sophomore or freshman class in the entire country. That includes Minnesota-Duluth’s highly regarded junior class of Audrey Cournoyer, Jessica Wong, Katherine Wilson, Pernilla Winberg, Vanessa Thibault and Mariia Posa.

 

[D2D]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

Making a good case for Hilary Knight:

"The numbers say Knight is the fourth all-time leading scorer in NCAA history. And if she doesn’t record another point she’ll have accomplished more than the three ahead of her, since Mercyhurst’s Meghan Agosta (303 points) and Harvard’s Julie Chu (285) and Nicole Corriero (265) never won a national title, while Knight has two championship rings and counting."

http://www.sheboyganpress.com/artic...-closer?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

 

[dave1381]

Making a good case for Hilary Knight:

"The numbers say Knight is the fourth all-time leading scorer in NCAA history. And if she doesn’t record another point she’ll have accomplished more than the three ahead of her, since Mercyhurst’s Meghan Agosta (303 points) and Harvard’s Julie Chu (285) and Nicole Corriero (265) never won a national title, while Knight has two championship rings and counting."

http://www.sheboyganpress.com/artic...-closer?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|FRONTPAGE|s

That paragraph is not a good case for Knight. It's not a career achievement award. If it were, Agosta would've won one.

The better paragraph for her case is the one talking about her move to center.

 

[granddaddyscout]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

That paragraph is not a good case for Knight. It's not a career achievement award. If it were, Agosta would've won one.

The better paragraph for her case is the one talking about her move to center.

MJ has been making and reinforcing this point all season as well. I think her chances are still quite good given her overall career and the success again this year of the team. It appears pretty likely that the BADGERS will make it to the Frozen Four and they are the favorites win it all again. That will give her appearances in the Championship game all 4 years of her career and I think that sort of success as a member of all those teams will weigh a little more on the voters’ minds than Agosts's more individually focus career achievements. Again just my opinion!

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

That will give her appearances in the Championship game all 4 years of her career and I think that sort of success as a member of all those teams will weigh a little more on the voters’ minds than Agosts's more individually focus career achievements.

One can't assume UW's presence in the championship game before the tournament starts. We don't have to go to far back in the sport to find multiple cases of top seeds that didn't get there. The big problem with any of these type of comparisons is that they aren't apples to apples. While it is true that Wisconsin has had better seasons than Agosta's Mercyhurst teams did, it was always rather clear cut that Agosta was the best player on her own team. Has that been true in any season for Knight? In the two seasons when the Badgers won it all, she had teammates that took home the Kaz, so those years are doubtful. This season, Wisconsin is the best team to date, but Knight is just one of five players that have been vital to the team. Are Wisconsin fans saying, "Forget Brianna Decker, Brooke Ammerman, Carolyne Prévost and Alex Rigsby; the only votes for a Badger should go to Knight." Is that your position? Because a strong case can be made for each of those players, including better performance in the key games than Knight has had to date.

My personal opinion on Knight ... she is one of the best players in college hockey, no doubt. She's basically Natalie Spooner with better teammates. But Knight hasn't had a great season, in terms of offensive production. If we're going to say that doesn't matter, then that opens the door for Spooner or anyone else that is ultra talented but isn't anywhere near the top of the stats. Teams focus on stopping Knight, but they don't have the luxury of concentrating on her to the same extent that they do against Spooner, because Knight has a much better supporting cast. I watched six Wisconsin games against either UMD or Minnesota this year, three live, three on TV or web. Knight wasn't particularly memorable in any of them. I know she can be; I've seen it in the past. But she wasn't, at least not in the way that Spooner is every time I see her. I came into this season the same way I did last season, expecting Knight to emerge as the game's best player. It didn't happen last time, and it has yet to happen this year. She was the WCHA coaches' pre-season pick for Play of the Year for the second consecutive year; Duggan won it in the end in 2011, and it looks like Jocelyne Lamoureux will in 2012. If Knight went down with an injury this weekend and was lost for the season, who would be the likely pick to win it all? For me, Wisconsin would remain a possibility. If Alex Rigsby were lost instead, the equation changes much more drastically. I realize that this isn't an MVP award, but neither is it a lifetime achievement award. A great four years helps enhance a reputation, but it doesn't offset a season where a player has had four teammates that were as big or bigger contributors.

 

[dave1381]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

Ditto. I expect the kind of points raised by granddaddyscout will be plenty to propel Knight into the Kaz Top 10 again based on the coaches voting. I don't think she's a serious contender to win for reasons ARM stated.

One other point: so there's this idea that Knight's offensive numbers are down simply because she has more defensive responsibilities as a second-line center. But here are the shot leaders for Wisconsin:
Knight 252
Decker 205
Sr. Ammerman 133
Prevost 91
So. Ammerman 74
So it looks to me like she just hasn't been as successful at finding the back of the net as she has in the past. Probably part of that is having good linemates but not all-star linemates. Still the aggregate stats support ARM's observations from a sample of six games that she hasn't been at her best this season.

I do think Knight has stepped up when the team has needed her the most. Her national lead in the game-winning goal stat is no accident (though I tend not to like that stat since it might count the second goal in a 8-1 blowout win when the opponent's goal was scored in garbage time.)

Still, I have all the respect in the world for Knight. I'd still give her top or near-top odds to be Frozen Four MVP this year. If we had a four-year career achievement award in addition to the Kamaier, she'd probably be my pick.

 

[northhockey]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

mlk has more defensive responsibilities too. She plays defensemen and has 30 pts in last 10 games..

 

[diddlypoo]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

As a badger fan, there is no one in the college game (in my opinion) that is more dominant on the ice than Hillary Knight, even when she puts up a donut. For lack of a better expression, she's a woman amongst girls on the ice. Having said that, I would vote for Decker because her production has been so consistent offensively and defensively -- just a machine.

 

[ARM]

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

Here is the list of nominees for the Kaz:

http://www.usahockey.com/Template_Usahockey.aspx?NAV=PL_03&id=315164

That neither Brooke Ammerman nor Carolyne Prévost, fifth and seventh in the country in PPG respectively, received a nomination suggests that the process still needs some tweaking.