What's new
By:
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Patty Kaz 2012

Re: Patty Kaz 2012

dave1381 said:
To add, I don't think any of the other top Kaz candidates have earned league all-Academic honors like the Lams did last year. That could make a huge difference in the outcome in a year like this whn there are a number of solid candidates and it's harder to distinguish them from on-ice performance.
Click to expand...

I think this point is not getting through. There are many deserving candidates this year. But for as much as I hate UND labled "The Lam Show" because I see plenty of talent on the team, it now helps me in this argument:

JLam is the nation's leader in points.
She plays TOP competition in the WCHA
UND also played BU in the first series of the season, when BU had Ms. Crosby
And, she has earned All-Academic Honors.

Like I said, I don't believe there is a clear cut winner, and there will be more debate, but with the criteria laid out for the award, I see JLam as a favorite as of today.

the Patty Kazmaier Memorial Award is presented annually to the top player in NCAA Division I women’s ice hockey. Other selection criteria include outstanding individual and team skills, sportsmanship, performance in the clutch, personal character, competitiveness and a love of hockey. Consideration is also given to academic achievement and civic involvement.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

northhockey said:
But for as much as I hate UND labled "The Lam Show" because I see plenty of talent on the team, it now helps me in this argument...
Click to expand...
One question that I have for you, if you watch the UND games frequently -- what should voters do about the move of Monique to defense, at least part of the time? Does that make her numbers more remarkable, because she is producing while playing D first? Or is it a case of her getting more ice time at D than she would at F, and it just gives her more opportunities to go, because my suspicion is that she doesn't hold back if she spots an opening?

The ice time factor is a hard thing to sort out for both twins. IMO, they play more per game than the top players at Wisconsin or Minnesota. Obviously, that's more work, and credit to them. But the flip side is that more ice time means one should produce more points. Another inequity for voters to weigh.

Plus, there is the penalty minutes factor. Yes, it stands to reason that a player on the ice more will commit more fouls, however, their numbers go beyond that. Given "sportsmanship" is one of the factors listed, spending a game in the box may turn off some voters.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

ARM said:
Given "sportsmanship" is one of the factors listed, spending a game in the box may turn off some voters.
Click to expand...

The Lams will never score high in the sportsmanship category; they are pretty universally recognized as dirty players. I have seen them play a dozen or so times personally and I would concur. They seem to go out of their way to take a shot at an opposing player after the whistle, bump into players; one of them actually shot a puck at a UW player last year after the game ended hitting her in the head.

I would also add that I think folks on this site are writing off H. Knight a bit early. Her point production may be down this year, but again after seeing her play 5 games this year she is clearly the most dominant player on the ice. She wears down her opponents like no other player in the game today because of her speed, skill, and physical strength. Very few penalties never, over-reacts to cheap shots, she just stands out as the best athlete on the ice. Very much the ways the Lams do when they aren't playing UW, Knight made them look very average in the two UND vs UW games I saw.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

ARM said:
One question that I have for you, if you watch the UND games frequently -- what should voters do about the move of Monique to defense, at least part of the time? Does that make her numbers more remarkable, because she is producing while playing D first? Or is it a case of her getting more ice time at D than she would at F, and it just gives her more opportunities to go, because my suspicion is that she doesn't hold back if she spots an opening?

The ice time factor is a hard thing to sort out for both twins. IMO, they play more per game than the top players at Wisconsin or Minnesota. Obviously, that's more work, and credit to them. But the flip side is that more ice time means one should produce more points. Another inequity for voters to weigh.

Plus, there is the penalty minutes factor. Yes, it stands to reason that a player on the ice more will commit more fouls, however, their numbers go beyond that. Given "sportsmanship" is one of the factors listed, spending a game in the box may turn off some voters.
Click to expand...

It was said on this thread a little while back with regards to vote splitting that coaches would endorse a single player for their team with a persuasive paragraph. If that is true, I believe Idalski would endorse JLam.

Also, I agree that they are on the ice a lot- just wondering if there is documentation of how that compares to other top players and if I could get a link to that. That would be interesting.

As far as the penalty minutes, I do see that as a factor. With the never-know-what-your-gonna-get-refs in the conference I would say that it is hard to determine how any player's PIMs translate into sportsmanship. But, the Lams are aggressive players and that in my opinion 75% of those penalties are warranted. I think as a whole, the refs in women's hockey have different standards with their penalties beyond the no checking rule. (ex: the first fighting majors in women's hockey were a joke, and cost both players their next game.)

But, I do believe JLam's time spent on school (All-Academic Honors) will outweigh her time spent in the sin bin :)
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

granddaddyscout said:
The Lams will never score high in the sportsmanship category; they are pretty universally recognized as dirty players. I have seen them play a dozen or so times personally and I would concur. They seem to go out of their way to take a shot at an opposing player after the whistle, bump into players; one of them actually shot a puck at a UW player last year after the game ended hitting her in the head.

I would also add that I think folks on this site are writing off H. Knight a bit early. Her point production may be down this year, but again after seeing her play 5 games this year she is clearly the most dominant player on the ice. She wears down her opponents like no other player in the game today because of her speed, skill, and physical strength. Very few penalties never, over-reacts to cheap shots, she just stands out as the best athlete on the ice. Very much the ways the Lams do when they aren't playing UW, Knight made them look very average in the two UND vs UW games I saw.
Click to expand...

First, I know this is WOMEN'S hockey, but universally hockey is considered a dirty sport anyway. I also believe the Lams and ALL top players have differences with the refs on simple hockey plays (stick lifts being called penalties, bumps being called checks, and retaliation penalties called dirty instead of "respect my teammates"

Also, Wisconsin has more depth than UND so it can have a more added focus on the Lams. When other teams use all their effort on the Lams, they either fail or allow UND's other skilled players the opportunity to shine. So overall, I disagree with your statement.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

A week ago one MN fan was angry that the MN coach overplayed the same 8 players. Now another MN fan suggests that ND plays the Lams more then the top MN players. Wow, I like it.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

northhockey said:
Also, I agree that they are on the ice a lot- just wondering if there is documentation of how that compares to other top players and if I could get a link to that.
Click to expand...
The teams likely track that info, but it isn't anything that is made public. For example, in the media conference after the Wisconsin series last month, both MLK and Idalski were asked about her playing 40 minutes in the OT game. I don't know how much Monique plays game in and game out, but that's a lot. She was on the ice more than half of the Saturday game of the Minnesota series in December. Maybe those are rare instances, you'd know better than I.

Anyway, do you have input into how Monique is being used these days -- strictly a D, sometimes a forward, a hybrid?
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

ARM said:
Anyway, do you have input into how Monique is being used these days -- strictly a D, sometimes a forward, a hybrid?
Click to expand...

The team had 4 lines rolling again last weekend against Bemidji as a few players are now healthy, Mo has been a D the majority of the time but she has been used at forward in some instances.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

northhockey said:
First, I know this is WOMEN'S hockey, but universally hockey is considered a dirty sport anyway. I also believe the Lams and ALL top players have differences with the refs on simple hockey plays (stick lifts being called penalties, bumps being called checks, and retaliation penalties called dirty instead of "respect my teammates"

Also, Wisconsin has more depth than UND so it can have a more added focus on the Lams. When other teams use all their effort on the Lams, they either fail or allow UND's other skilled players the opportunity to shine. So overall, I disagree with your statement.
Click to expand...

I didn't expect agreement from a UDN/Lam supporter, they are both great players. They are always looking to give that little extra shot though that you don't see from a player like Duggan as an example. They are chippy and dirty in a way that frankly is beneath their talent level. They are Olympians which is the closest thing to a real professional that a female player can achieve. They should try to be more like Crosby than Ty Domi, you expect lessor players to bridge the talent gap by being chippy but not players with their skill level. I think you will find that many of their USA teammates feel this way when playing against them. These sorts of attributes are often loved by then players fans so no surprise that you disagree, but they still hurt a player in the "sportsmanship category”. Look at the Lady Byng winners in the NHL, Gretzky five times and Datsyuk won it four times, then St. Louis last year and Defenseman Lindstrom may win it this year. They play the game at the highest level with few penalties and when is the last time any of them gave someone a shot to the chops after a whistle. Not sure how depth has anything to do with it.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

granddaddyscout said:
Not sure how depth has anything to do with it.
Click to expand...
That's a different topic than chippy or not. It means because UND doesn't have the depth of a team like Wisconsin, teams can more easily focus efforts on stopping the twins. One sees teams do this versus OSU to stop Spooner. Meanwhile, it is hard to give the same attention to Wisconsin forwards, because they have so many that can beat you.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

granddaddyscout said:
I didn't expect agreement from a UDN/Lam supporter, they are both great players. They are always looking to give that little extra shot though that you don't see from a player like Duggan as an example. They are chippy and dirty in a way that frankly is beneath their talent level. They are Olympians which is the closest thing to a real professional that a female player can achieve. They should try to be more like Crosby than Ty Domi, you expect lessor players to bridge the talent gap by being chippy but not players with their skill level. I think you will find that many of their USA teammates feel this way when playing against them. These sorts of attributes are often loved by then players fans so no surprise that you disagree, but they still hurt a player in the "sportsmanship category”. Look at the Lady Byng winners in the NHL, Gretzky five times and Datsyuk won it four times, then St. Louis last year and Defenseman Lindstrom may win it this year. They play the game at the highest level with few penalties and when is the last time any of them gave someone a shot to the chops after a whistle. Not sure how depth has anything to do with it.
Click to expand...

Well, we have opposite opinions and there can never be a consensus about a perception. But, the Patty Kaz is not a sportsmanship only award.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

ARM said:
That's a different topic than chippy or not. It means because UND doesn't have the depth of a team like Wisconsin, teams can more easily focus efforts on stopping the twins. One sees teams do this versus OSU to stop Spooner. Meanwhile, it is hard to give the same attention to Wisconsin forwards, because they have so many that can beat you.
Click to expand...

I was referring to granddaddyscout's statement that H Knight makes the twins look average.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

pakidnyc said:
Interestingly, Rebecca Johnston only has 4 minor penalties in 23 games played, and I don't think anyone would call her unsportsmanlike in any context.
Click to expand...
Amanda Kessel has 3 minors in 30 games. :p
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

PMs were probably a factor in the Lams not making the top 10 as sophomores. On the flip side, Ruggiero won the award in a year in which she had a game DQ and misconduct -- she had a 25/80 year in 35 games. Note all of JLams penalties are minors this year.
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

dave1381 said:
PMs were probably a factor in the Lams not making the top 10 as sophomores. On the flip side, Ruggiero won the award in a year in which she had a game DQ and misconduct -- she had a 25/80 year in 35 games. Note all of JLams penalties are minors this year.
Click to expand...

And if we would like to make penalty mintues a huge issue, JLam has cut down considerably from last year in that department. Also, imagine how many more points they could score if they weren't wasting 2 mins in the box! But, I don't think penalty minutes are much of a factor either way
 
Re: Patty Kaz 2012

northhockey said:
I was referring to granddaddyscout's statement that H Knight makes the twins look average.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear my point is that when you watch Knight play especially live where your view is not limited to the camera's view she stands out like no other player in the game, in my opinion. The Lams, Decker, Spooner, Johnston, even Poulin make lots of great plays and are very talented as are a number of other players in the game. When you watch Knight play she looks like a man playing the women's game, she is roughly 6' tall 175#, is extremely fast, nimble, great hands, she very clearly stands out as playing the game physically at a different level. She does everything the Lams or Decker do, they are 5'6" and in the 150# range. If it is all about numbers like these sort of contests often are, well she is in trouble. She has played a different role for UW this year splitting time with freshman and sophomore line mates while Decker has been paired with two pretty successful seniors. If it is all about numbers like these sort of contests often are, well she is in trouble.

If the goal is really to select the best overall player/student/athlete, then she has a pretty good chance. I think the coaches that play against her have tremendous respect for the role she plays, so we shall see. If she leads her team to another NCAA championship she will have played in the Championship game all four years of her career and she may wind up with 3 rings, not a bad run and I wish her luck.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top