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Official Thread of the Leftover League

Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

I'm also trying to figure out why, from the "Superconference's" perspective, WMU would be seen as preferrable to a school like SCSU. I think the numbers back up SCSU as the better choice:

SCSU plays in a 5,763 seat arena and has been competative in the WCHA over the last several seasons, last year notwithstanding. SCSU has posted winning records in 8 of the last 10 years and has NCAA tourny appearances in 6 of those years. The Huskies have made 8 NCAA tourny appearances in the program's D-I history. The Huskies have posted a 0.542 overall record in their time as a member of the WCHA.

WMU plays in a 3,667 seat arena and has not been particularly competative in the CCHA over the last several seasons, with the exception of last year. The Broncos have posted winning records in two of the last 10 years with 1 NCAA tourny appearance, and they have just lost the coach that lead them to that tourny. The Broncos have 3 NCAA tourny appearances in the program's D-I history and have posted a 0.480 overall record in their time as a member of the CCHA.

St. Cloud is also right outside the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro at 65 miles from Minneapolis. While I understand the primary school of the MSP metro is UMN, St. Cloud is as close as the new "Superconference" can come to a presence in the MSP metro. Kalamazoo is 140 miles from Detroit. I suppose WMU does give the new conference a presence in Michigan, a rich hockey state, and a team close to Miami and Notre Dame, if the Irish end up coming to the new conference. Duluth and, to some extent, UND already give the new conference a presence in hockey-rich Minnesota.

If the new "Superconference" is trying to assemble the most competative group of programs they can, SCSU just seems like a better choice than WMU. The only advantage I see to bringing in WMU is that foothold in Michigan.

Well now you're just making too much sense. Obviously something that has seemed to disappear with many of these changes.

That would make sense. But if that is the case, it doesn't seem to make much sense on Miami's part to commit to the new conference when Notre Dame and WMU haven't. At this point, Miami could well end up in a conference where every single conference game is a flight. If Notre Dame and Western don't end up in the new conference, will it become an unstable conference from day 1 due to Miami's travel expenses?

Which is why I am under the belief that the teams in the new conference either know that ND is in or have egos so big they think if we build it they will come. If it stays as the current 6 I think it will be proven to have been a big mistake.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

3) The Alaska schools are left out of the new league. I don't see any way they would want one, let alone both Alaska schools in their league. If the new "super" league which has the most to gain by playing an Alaskan school doesn't want them, why would the left-overs? (This is not a knock on Alaska...I'd hate to see them not be a part of a league.)
It's called the Alaska exemption and plenty of schools involved love the extra home games. Please do a little research before trying to make a point...
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

From the McClatchy-Tribune New Service report in today's Mankato Fre Press:

"If one or both of Notre Dame or Western Michigan does not join the new conference, you can count St. Cloud State out. School president Earl H. Potter said Friday that his school would not consider joining the new league, even if asked."
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

From the McClatchy-Tribune New Service report in today's Mankato Fre Press:

"If one or both of Notre Dame or Western Michigan does not join the new conference, you can count St. Cloud State out. School president Earl H. Potter said Friday that his school would not consider joining the new league, even if asked."
Potter can be a temperamental child. He's angry SCSU wasn't invited to the party.
 
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Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

From the McClatchy-Tribune New Service report in today's Mankato Fre Press:

"If one or both of Notre Dame or Western Michigan does not join the new conference, you can count St. Cloud State out. School president Earl H. Potter said Friday that his school would not consider joining the new league, even if asked."
Potter is a moron with the mentality of a temperamental child. He's angry SCSU wasn't invited to the party.

No matter his mentality, he has the right idea. Even if the SuperDuper League does last (which I find doubtful), SCSU would be virtually guaranteed either an autobid or an at-large bid from the WCHA.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

Not to mention that according to the interview with Maturi, it sounds like there is a good chance that MN will also continue to play the small MN schools (though this was rumored back when the B1G revealed their hand).
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

No matter his mentality, he has the right idea. Even if the SuperDuper League does last (which I find doubtful), SCSU would be virtually guaranteed either an autobid or an at-large bid from the WCHA.
It was poor timing and he wasn't being truthful. This isn't the first time he's stuck his foot in his mouth. But anyway, I agree with you that SCSU will be ok.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

Not to mention that according to the interview with Maturi, it sounds like there is a good chance that MN will also continue to play the small MN schools (though this was rumored back when the B1G revealed their hand).

of course, they're going to give them home games... all this stuff does nothing but strengthen the hand of the eastern teams for scheduling so even if Minny wanted to schedule more eastern teams the price would go up.... especially with all these teams now needing dates.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

I'm also trying to figure out why, from the "Superconference's" perspective, WMU would be seen as preferrable to a school like SCSU. I think the numbers back up SCSU as the better choice:

SCSU plays in a 5,763 seat arena and has been competative in the WCHA over the last several seasons, last year notwithstanding. SCSU has posted winning records in 8 of the last 10 years and has NCAA tourny appearances in 6 of those years. The Huskies have made 8 NCAA tourny appearances in the program's D-I history. The Huskies have posted a 0.542 overall record in their time as a member of the WCHA.

WMU plays in a 3,667 seat arena and has not been particularly competative in the CCHA over the last several seasons, with the exception of last year. The Broncos have posted winning records in two of the last 10 years with 1 NCAA tourny appearance, and they have just lost the coach that lead them to that tourny. The Broncos have 3 NCAA tourny appearances in the program's D-I history and have posted a 0.480 overall record in their time as a member of the CCHA.

St. Cloud is also right outside the Minneapolis-St. Paul metro at 65 miles from Minneapolis. While I understand the primary school of the MSP metro is UMN, St. Cloud is as close as the new "Superconference" can come to a presence in the MSP metro. Kalamazoo is 140 miles from Detroit. I suppose WMU does give the new conference a presence in Michigan, a rich hockey state, and a team close to Miami and Notre Dame, if the Irish end up coming to the new conference. Duluth and, to some extent, UND already give the new conference a presence in hockey-rich Minnesota.

If the new "Superconference" is trying to assemble the most competative group of programs they can, SCSU just seems like a better choice than WMU. The only advantage I see to bringing in WMU is that foothold in Michigan.

Someone's got to be the *****? Right now, it's going to be UMD, UNO, or Miami, depending on how long a DII team can stay with teams all about whoring themselves out for money, and the other two have elite coaches at the moment that are largely responsible for their success. First one to blink gets to win >10 games a year.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

It's called the Alaska exemption and plenty of schools involved love the extra home games. Please do a little research before trying to make a point...
The extra home games, however, do the most good to schools with large barns that fill them up. For the most part, those are the Big 10 schools, the schools in the new "Superconference", and the schools in HE. The exemption is much less valuable to a school that averages 2,000 per game than it is to a school that packs in 4,000+ and has a TV deal for their home games. The schools that are most likely to significanly benefit, financially, from the exemption also appear to be leaving the Alaska schools out at the moment.

Here is average home attendence for men's ice hockey in 2010 for the top 20 schools:

1. Wisconsin.....................15,048
2. North Dakota..............11,654
3. Minnesota.....................10,108
4. N Neb.-Omaha................ 6,866
5. Michigan........................ 6,646
6. C Colorado Col................ 6,548
7. N New Hampshire.............5,760
8. St. Cloud St....................5,670
9. Denver........................5,527
10. Massachusetts...............5,313
11. Boston U.......................5,167
12. Boston College...............5,012
13. Michigan St...................4,966
14. Mass.-Lowell..................4,664
15. Minn. Duluth..................4,512
16. Maine...........................4,291
17. Cornell.......................4,264
18. Vermont........................3,944
19. Minn. St. Mankato...........3,880
20. Alas. Anchorage..............3,310

If Wisconsin, North Dakota, or Minnesota get two extra home games, they rake in serious money. Assuming an average ticket price of about $25 (which UND easily charges, higher depending on the opponent), 10,000+ per game means a $500,000+ income for the weekend, just based on ticket sales. Add on concessions, parking, merchandise sales, etc, and its very lucritive to have those two extra games.

Now, here are the 2010 attendance numbers for the "left behind" schools:
8. St. Cloud St....................5,670
19. Minn. St. Mankato...........3,880
20. Alas. Anchorage..............3,310
24. Alas. Fairbanks................3,069
25. N Northern Mich..............2,953
35. Lake Superior St..............2,314
36. Bemidji St.......................2,303
37. Bowling Green..................2,247
38. Michigan Tech.................2,164
42. Ferris St.........................1,618

For St Cloud, Mankato, and Northern Michigan, those extra games are fairly lucritive. They could clear $100,000 for the weekend in ticket sales if they charge $20+ for tickets. I know some schools charge more and some charge less, and I don't know what these schools charge. Any school averaging less than 2,500 ticket sales per game will bring in less than $100,000 in ticket revenues for the weekend if they average $20 or less per ticket sold. The concessions, merchandise sales, and parking (if they charge it) income for these smaller attendence schools will also be proportionally lower.

A Wisconsin, North Dakota, or Minnesota might bring in well in excess of $600,000 with an extra home weekend. But some of these smaller attendance schools might not break the $100,000 mark. The Alaskans seem to be hanging their hat on the exemption, but that exemption is much more valuable to the big money schools than they are to the cost-containment schools. And let me be clear that I don't want to see the Alaska schools and their hockey programs disappear. I wish UND and UAA were still both going to be in the WCHA in 2013 and beyond. But I just don't see the exemption as being as big of a bargaining chip in a cost-containment league as many of the Alaskans think it is.
 
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Not to mention that according to the interview with Maturi, it sounds like there is a good chance that MN will also continue to play the small MN schools.
Yeah, at Minneapolis. They won't be coming to Mankato. And, of course, we'll go along with it. After all, we played two of our "home" games against them at the X when they would have HAD to come down here.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

Reading through the thread upon returning to town, I found it heartwarming that the posters were coming up with multiple ways for the least financially sound hockey schools to save ALL of the "left-over" school programs. It would be great, but I don't see it happening.

I also found interesting the assumption that the upper peninsula Michigan schools would jump at the opportunity to join the WCHA's remaining teams. Isn't it far more likely MTU would want to join what's left of the CCHA?

While having a full scholarship team might be enticing, would Robert Morris, Niagara, and perhaps others really want to switch to a CCHA which is devoid of its top teams? (Yes, I know three of the remaining CCHA teams have won National Championships, but not recently.)

What seems most likely is:

1) Notre Dame and Western leave for Hockey East (or the new league) as a package deal.
2) St. Cloud, MinnState, BSU, MTU, LSSU, FSU, NMU, BG create a new 8 team league. UAH gets an invite only if one of the 8 decides to drop hockey or another team (Robert Morris/Niagara) wants to join.
3) The Alaska schools are left out of the new league. I don't see any way they would want one, let alone both Alaska schools in their league. If the new "super" league which has the most to gain by playing an Alaskan school doesn't want them, why would the left-overs? (This is not a knock on Alaska...I'd hate to see them not be a part of a league.)

1) Surprising as this may sound to some, Tech would likely rather bond itself to the MN leftovers and stay in the WCHA.

2) There's no reason to leave the Alaska schools out as long as they agree to keep covering most of the Lower 48s schools' travel costs. Something can be worked out scheduling-wise, though I'm sure some of the armchair ADs here aren't going to like the solution - you can't please everyone.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

A Wisconsin, North Dakota, or Minnesota might bring in well in excess of $600,000 with an extra home weekend. But some of these smaller attendance schools might not break the $100,000 mark. The Alaskans seem to be hanging their hat on the exemption, but that exemption is much more valuable to the big money schools than they are to the cost-containment schools. And let me be clear that I don't want to see the Alaska schools and their hockey programs disappear. I wish UND and UAA were still both going to be in the WCHA in 2013 and beyond. But I just don't see the exemption as being as big of a bargaining chip in a cost-containment league as many of the Alaskans think it is.

Yeah .. an extra 100,000 a year in revenue means nothing to programs trying to contain their costs. I want to study economic theory in North Dakota.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

Yeah .. an extra 100,000 a year in revenue means nothing to programs trying to contain their costs. I want to study economic theory in North Dakota.
I'm not saying it doesn't mean something. I'm just pointing out that two extra home games are much more valuable to some programs than to others. And don't forget that in the new world of college hockey, it may be hard for small schools to find a quality opponent that will come to their barn for 2 extra games and that will be a crowd-draw.
 
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Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

I'm not saying it doesn't mean something. I'm just pointing out that two extra home games are much more valuable to some programs than to others. And don't forget that in the new world of college hockey, it may be hard for small schools to find a quality opponent that will come to their barn for 2 extra games and that will be a crowd-draw.

Gee ... be in a league where my costs are 50 and revenue is 40 ... or be in a league where my costs are still 50 but my revenue is 50+? I guess in North Dakota that means I choose the 50/40 model? Did I get it right?
 
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Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

Now ...

How about ...

Any/all North Dakota, Denver, CC, UMD, UNO, Minnesota and/or Wisconsin fans take a long hike out of this short thread.

TY in advance.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

This is probably a stupid question, judging by the fact it hasn't been brought up as a solution yet, but do small schools get paid by the big boys to play a road series?

I know it wouldn't even begin to compare to the money handed out for football or even basketball, but would a team like Ferris be able to play an entire non-con schedule made up of road games playing MSU, UM, ND (assuming they leave the CCHA) and Miami and still maintain a reasonable budget, or would they be better off trying to get a home and home series from those teams?
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

I don't know what the final league(s) will look like, but the Alaska schools should be involved. The important thing is that the conferences and schools work together rather than the "do what's best for me and screw everyone else" mentality that we've seen so far.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

A Wisconsin, North Dakota, or Minnesota might bring in well in excess of $600,000 with an extra home weekend. But some of these smaller attendance schools might not break the $100,000 mark. The Alaskans seem to be hanging their hat on the exemption, but that exemption is much more valuable to the big money schools than they are to the cost-containment schools. And let me be clear that I don't want to see the Alaska schools and their hockey programs disappear. I wish UND and UAA were still both going to be in the WCHA in 2013 and beyond. But I just don't see the exemption as being as big of a bargaining chip in a cost-containment league as many of the Alaskans think it is.

An extra $100,000 is nothing to sneeze at for a small school like Mankato or Tech. One main thing you are forgetting is hosting a tournament. Hosting a Minnesota-esque Beanpot at The X for somebody like Mankato or St. Cloud could be a huge payday. Having two extra games on the schedule makes it easy to do that.
 
Re: Official Thread of the Leftover League

An extra $100,000 is nothing to sneeze at for a small school like Mankato or Tech. One main thing you are forgetting is hosting a tournament. Hosting a Minnesota-esque Beanpot at The X for somebody like Mankato or St. Cloud could be a huge payday. Having two extra games on the schedule makes it easy to do that.
If they could put together a big-draw tourny using their extra games that could be an effective money-maker.
 
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