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Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

let's all agree that something should be done on capital gains...there are a few posts outlining how...would the change, even if to a better methodology, cause a change in investment strategies that could hurt the economy? how would investors react on their next invested dollar if they knew gains could be taxed at 2x what they were previously? not a reason to avoid the change, just a question about reaction to it.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

let's all agree that something should be done on capital gains...there are a few posts outlining how...would the change, even if to a better methodology, cause a change in investment strategies that could hurt the economy? how would investors react on their next invested dollar if they knew gains could be taxed at 2x what they were previously? not a reason to avoid the change, just a question about reaction to it.

Historically, when capital gains rates are high, investors sell less often; when rates are low, investors sell more often. Reductions in capital gains tax rates empirically have in the past been associated with increases in revenue collected from the capital gains tax; I have sources in my files, generally IRS data.

At one time there were three holding periods for capital gains (now there are two). Hold for less than a year, ordinary income tax rates (current law as well). Hold for more than a year, it had been a 28% rate, it was lowered to 20% and again to 15% (increasing to 20% by default in 2013 if no action is taken). Earlier, hold for more than five years, it had been a 15% rate when the one- to five-year rate was 28%; the five-year holding period was eliminated when rates were lowered.

The concept behind lower capital gains rates is two-fold: (1) to encourage longer-term investment horizon rather than have the market constantly churning with short-term speculation, and (2) as an offset to the lack of inflation-adjustment. My parents bought their house in the early 1960's, for example. On paper it is worth maybe 4 times as much, on an inflation-adjusted basis it has hardly increased in value at all. Rather than introduce true inflation-indexing (probably because it would be too complicated??), a lower rate was generally accepted by all parties as a reasonable compromise.

Ironically, one of the biggest protectors of differential treatment have been the Democrats (see, Schumer, D-NY). Some cynical people might posit a connection between the observation that Wall St. political donations skew heavily Democratic and this differential treatment; other cynics might note that the financial services industry has a self-regulatory agency (FINRA) while most other industries are directly regulated by the Federal government.




PS I've tried to ignore some unkind personal comments; to be clear, I am equally mistrustful of career politicians from either party. Please do not think that I am one who believes "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." I am more likely to believe "neither my enemy nor my enemy's enemy are likely to be trustworthy, that's why I have actual friends." :)
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I was wondering if buying would decrease as a result of an increase in the tax...there is likely a point, dependent upon other options, at which it makes sense to invest in something other than the market, or to invest to a lesser degree if the tax on gains is too high.

i think most people get the idea with college investing (although most don't seem to do it) when the child is 1 you invest in the market, as they get older you become more conservative and eventually you are out of the market and into cd's or whatever safe but conservative format suits you.

so, if capital gains were taxed higher, you'd potentially start out with a smaller percentage of your investment in the market, is that a hypothesis with any merit?
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I was wondering if buying would decrease as a result of an increase in the tax...there is likely a point, dependent upon other options, at which it makes sense to invest in something other than the market, or to invest to a lesser degree if the tax on gains is too high.

i think most people get the idea with college investing (although most don't seem to do it) when the child is 1 you invest in the market, as they get older you become more conservative and eventually you are out of the market and into cd's or whatever safe but conservative format suits you.

so, if capital gains were taxed higher, you'd potentially start out with a smaller percentage of your investment in the market, is that a hypothesis with any merit?

While your hypothesis has some merit, it is not necessarily the only consideration: there are only so many places in which you can find opportunity, and capital gains taxes apply to all capital investments, not merely stocks. Capital gains tax may apply to bonds if sold before maturity. Real estate also has capital gains taxes (even a personal residence has capital gains tax upon sale unless you buy a house of equal or greater value, in which case the gain is deferred, although there is an exclusion of something like $250,000 of gain on sale of residence before the tax applies). Also, people can invest in the market using 401k or IRA or tax-deferred investment account, in which you do not pay tax until withdrawal, and then the tax is at ordinary income tax rates (unless you use a "Roth IRA" which has non-deductible contribution, tax-deferred growth, and tax-free withdrawal).

The capital gains tax rate has less of an effect on what people buy than it does on when people sell. People may be more inclined to hold until death, for example, at which time there is a step-up in basis for heirs, who then could sell and pay no capital gains tax (although estate taxes would apply to assets in excess of $1 million starting in 2013, the exemption is $5.12 million in 2012).



The biggest problem with trying to use the tax code for social engineering is that it distorts behavior in non-productive ways. People spend more time figuring out tax implications when it is best for society overall when people focus on what behavior is most productive (at least that is what liberals and conservatives claim :)). The classic liberal thesis is that if people pursue their self-interest in a mutually-cooperative manner then the result is overall optimal well-being, as long as adequate provision is made for people going through temporary set-backs. The liberal critique of the modern welfare state is that it traps people in a state of permanent dependency. Then we have to worry about raising additional revenue when we really should be focusing our energy instead on raising these people from dependency to self-reliance.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I hope Sullivan is wrong about the possibility of Israel launching a war.

For the worldview of Cheney and Netanyahu to prevail, Obama must be defeated. That is clearly the agenda of the current Israeli government, and what the NYT delicately but accurately calls "Israel's backers" in the US.

My worry is that once the Likudniks begin to realize Obama may not be defeated by the GOP at home, the current Israeli government would launch a war without warning to create a crisis to humiliate the president, rally end-times evangelicals to vote, send oil prices soaring, and force the US president to coopt a war he does not want and does not yet believe is necessary. If that helps the GOP nominee, so much the better. Every GOP candidate is now committed to the most extreme positions of the Likudnik Israeli right - and are to the bellicose right of most Israelis.

I hope that the Israeli government is not that reckless or extreme. But ask yourself when thinking about Netanyahu: what would Cheney do? These individuals are radicals. They turned the US into a torturing nation and regarded that decision as a "no-brainer." A "wag-the-dog" scenario in which Netanyahu creates a war to wound and weaken a US president before an election is, sadly, not unthinkable. And he will have the GOP as his critical back-up.

The Neocons really are that sick, as they showed when they had the brute force of the world's only super power to play with for 8 years, but I hope Israel won't be as reckless because they really do have something at stake. Cheney could torture and murder with impunity; nothing was going to happen to him or anybody he cared about as a result. The Israelis can't be such idiots, they'd be consigning future generations of Israelis to pay for their machismo.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Maybe someday Obama will stop pushing Israel into a corner. The way Obama has been toward Israel during his first term has been shameful, and even a good number of Dems have distanced themselves from the President on the subject of Israel.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Maybe someday Obama will stop pushing Israel into a corner. The way Obama has been toward Israel during his first term has been shameful, and even a good number of Dems have distanced themselves from the President on the subject of Israel.
Looks like somebody has bought it, anyway. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I hope Sullivan is wrong about the possibility of Israel launching a war.



The Neocons really are that sick, as they showed when they had the brute force of the world's only super power to play with for 8 years, but I hope Israel won't be as reckless because they really do have something at stake. Cheney could torture and murder with impunity; nothing was going to happen to him or anybody he cared about as a result. The Israelis can't be such idiots, they'd be consigning future generations of Israelis to pay for their machismo.

Amazing, Andrew Sullivan CAN actually write about something other than "who is Trig Palin's real mother?" Shocking. And of course you go into your usual song and dance about how Neocons are the latter day equivalent to the Waffen SS (after all, they're mostly Jooz, aren't they?) And as we all know, Jooz are capable of nearly anything.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I hope Sullivan is wrong about the possibility of Israel launching a war.



The Neocons really are that sick, as they showed when they had the brute force of the world's only super power to play with for 8 years, but I hope Israel won't be as reckless because they really do have something at stake. Cheney could torture and murder with impunity; nothing was going to happen to him or anybody he cared about as a result. The Israelis can't be such idiots, they'd be consigning future generations of Israelis to pay for their machismo.

that sounds beyond bizarre. I think this Sullivan nutjob is trolling you.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Amazing, Andrew Sullivan CAN actually write about something other than "who is Trig Palin's real mother?" Shocking. And of course you go into your usual song and dance about how Neocons are the latter day equivalent to the Waffen SS (after all, they're mostly Jooz, aren't they?) And as we all know, Jooz are capable of nearly anything.

Nice try. Most Jews care about human rights and condemn Israeli apartheid. A lot of people on the Freedom Flotilla that tried to deliver aid to Palestine were Jewish. But don't let facts get in the way of your racism.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Nice try. Most Jews care about human rights and condemn Israeli apartheid. A lot of people on the Freedom Flotilla that tried to deliver aid to Palestine were Jewish. But don't let facts get in the way of your racism.

Simmer down, Al.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Nice try. Most Jews care about human rights and condemn Israeli apartheid. A lot of people on the Freedom Flotilla that tried to deliver aid to Palestine were Jewish. But don't let facts get in the way of your racism.

Got it. It's racist to be sarcastic. "Israeli apartheid?" Yeah, that's the principal problem in the middle east. Just put an end to "Israeli apartheid." Oh, and bleep the "Freedom Flotilla," and the horse they rode in on.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

that sounds beyond bizarre. I think this Sullivan nutjob is trolling you.
I don't give much credence to false flag theories. I don't doubt for a moment that the PNAC types would dream up something this dumb and crazy, but like I said, the Israelis strike me as being first, last, and solely in the business of survival, not giving a few apocalyptic Christians a handy.

The sure thing is that the entire media have been banging the war drums almost as bad as the lead up to Iraq. Must've already had the type set -- only one letter difference.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Looks like somebody has bought it, anyway. :rolleyes:

As have most Jews...but I am sure you know more than people who actually are affected by this :rolleyes:

And I say that as a Jew who hates Israeli policy and supports a Palestinian state...
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Yeah, Bibi, I'm going to have to tell you to go fark yourself. We just blew 8 years in Iraq on bad intelligence. We're tired, and have no desire to kick off Gulf War 3 against the advice of our military, your military and both countries' intelligence agencies with a country 4 times the size of Iraq when you can't even get a majority of your own citizens to support it. So why don't you run along back home and keep shoving in new settlements as fast as you can since you know that when some Arab country does find a way to copy 70 year old technology, you're going to have to behave and treat the Palestinians like human beings, which I'm sure gives you nightmares.

His eagerness to insert himself into internal American politics has pretty much ended my patience with him. Could you imagine the screams if Obama was in Israel palling around with his opposition?
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Yeah, Bibi, I'm going to have to tell you to go fark yourself. We just blew 8 years in Iraq on bad intelligence. We're tired, and have no desire to kick off Gulf War 3 against the advice of our military, your military and both countries' intelligence agencies with a country 4 times the size of Iraq when you can't even get a majority of your own citizens to support it. So why don't you run along back home and keep shoving in new settlements as fast as you can since you know that when some Arab country does find a way to copy 70 year old technology, you're going to have to behave and treat the Palestinians like human beings, which I'm sure gives you nightmares.

His eagerness to insert himself into internal American politics has pretty much ended my patience with him. Could you imagine the screams if Obama was in Israel palling around with his opposition?

Netanyahu is annoying, but Israel wants to attack Iran then have at it. No need for the US to launch yet another war. It'd be about time we stop trying to solve their problems. Cut back the 10B a year we send there and let them do what they please in their foreign policy.

I always laugh how the knuckledraggers claim they're winning over Jewish support, yet that vote in the US goes Dem by like 70% every time.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Looks like somebody has bought it, anyway. :rolleyes:
Yes, I buy into facts. Won't change that just to meet somebody's politically correct expectations. To think Obama has been anything other than hostile to Israel is simply delusional. Obama's a smart guy, but his problem is that he thinks he's really really smart, smarter than everyone else, and he isn't.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

His eagerness to insert himself into internal American politics has pretty much ended my patience with him. Could you imagine the screams if Obama was in Israel palling around with his opposition?
No, Obama just pals around with all the Muslim countries while snubbing Israel. Bibi hasn't inserted himself into U.S. politics nearly like Obama has into Israeli politics.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Bob, when you and facts meet, you have to re-introduce yourself because you're usually either running away from them or refusing to admit they exist. The Knesset doesn't get invited on tours of whatever the hell in America would be the equivalent of Israeli settlements like Republican congressmen.

And the President of the United States meeting with Arab leaders is called international politics. The Prime Minister of the Israeli state meeting with leaders of an individual party in US politics like McConnell, McCain and Cantor, is called involving himself in internal American politics. This isn't rocket science.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

As have most Jews...but I am sure you know more than people who actually are affected by this :rolleyes:
Oooo nice try, the old "nobody knows what's true except the people I agree with" card. We're all affected by the blind march to war, friend; most particularly the Israelis. It aint Oyster Bay and Naperville that are going to get hit if Likud succeeds in provoking their war. The readership of the National Review and the New York Times can afford to stoke the fires and dream their Greater Israel dreams. The actual humans who live in the region have to find a workable solution, Jew and Arab (and Christian) alike.

I suggest as a first step they jointly tell the rest of the world to go ef itself. Arab oil and Israeli computer viruses would be a very effective economic team. :)
 
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