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Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

It's rather simple. They have a less percentage of the pie than ever before. Their wages are practically flatlining while the rich's income is increasing at a very high rate. Compare the blue line and the red line on the chart linked below.

http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/12/10139301-introducing-eds-vulture-chart

edit: Scooby - I see what that graph says but I don't think it is the same question that I raised.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I think you're talking past each other, with one asking whether the portion of the pie has gotten smaller (regardless of any change in the size of the overall pie) and the other is asking whether the poor in actual dollars are getting more or less or the same. Two different things statistically. The first seems a likely yes, the second not so easy to determine.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

According to the Census Bureau, the share of income received by the top 5% of American households is now 21.5%, up from 21.4% in the 1990s. Their share of income taxes has risen to 59% under President Obama from 52% under President Clinton. This despite the fact that the top tax rate was five points higher in the Clinton years.

If you go further back to the pre-Reagan days, when the top tax rate was 70%, under the four presidents of that era, the income share of the top 5% was 16.8% and their share of the income tax was 36%. In other words, the share of income received by the top 5% has risen 28% and their share of income taxes has risen 64%.

Stated differently, based on the data provided by the Census Bureau and the Internal Revenue Service, the relative tax burden of the top 5% of American earners compared with the remaining 95% has grown from roughly three-to-one prior to 1980 to almost six-to-one today.

Ironically, it is the GWB income tax cuts that contribute to this disparity. The Bush tax cuts disproportionately affected people at the lower end of the scale (e.g., from 15% rate to 10% rate is a 33% reduction, from 39.6% to 35% is a little more than an 11% reduction).

As Scooby likes to say, this does not include payroll taxes (which in theory are supposed to be specifically dedicated only to one purpose, and are not supposed to be funnelled into general revenue); still it does indicate that we are asking fewer and fewer people to pay a larger and larger share of general operating revenues.

The data also indicate that the top 5% is earning a larger amount than before; although that statistic also is skewed because it does not take into account the larger amounts of government benefits received today relative to earlier (e.g. 99 weeks of unemployment benefits vs 26 weeks of unemployment benefits).



Most interesting is the data that indicates over the past 80 years, the share of taxes as % of GDP paid by the top 5% has been remarkably stable at about 18% no matter what the tax rate structure was. High tax rates invite a covert form of [pick a term] because every legislator gets a chance to curry favor with a special niche constituency by inserting an exemption or exclusion or deduction targeted to a favored group, while low tax rates generally also are associated with fewer deductions and exemptions in exchange for the lowering of the rates.
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I'm going to let somebody else say it re: tax rate changes. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

The 1% surely think so. All those evil social programs are about making sure people don't starve, not making sure those kids have the same starting line as Romney's kids. Do you think that you and Paris Hilton had the same starting line?



Wait, are we talking about a white child or a black child? Because if he's black that ambulance better not take him to the Whites-only hospital, even if it is only 5 minutes away.
(a) I would think that I had (have) more common sense than she does. That counts for something
(b) Not in this country. And right now I am more worried about the 50 United States than about some AK-47 shooting nutjob in an Islamic "republic".
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

(a) I would think that I had (have) more common sense than she does. That counts for something

Hmmm Would I prefer common sense or an endless supply of cash?

Let me think on that one....
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

I'm going to let somebody else say it re: tax rate changes. :rolleyes:

We could quote Barack Obama, in his reply to a question in a presidential debate during the 2008 campaign.

Candidate Obama was asked by Charlie Gibson from ABC News why he supported an increase in the capital gains tax rate, given the clear historical record that repeatedly shows the government losing revenue as a result.

Replied Obama, "Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness."

Who needs revenue, eh?
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

We could quote Barack Obama, in his reply to a question in a presidential debate during the 2008 campaign.

Candidate Obama was asked by Charlie Gibson from ABC News why he supported an increase in the capital gains tax rate, given the clear historical record that repeatedly shows the government losing revenue as a result.

Replied Obama, "Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness."

Who needs revenue, eh?

Revenue as a percentage of GDP is at historic lows. The argument that you're increasing revenues with low capital gains rates has sailed away. It's on the same boat as the you can't tax job creators if you want to create jobs.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Revenue as a percentage of GDP is at historic lows. The argument that you're increasing revenues with low capital gains rates has sailed away. It's on the same boat as the you can't tax job creators if you want to create jobs.

we're coming out of a recession and one of the worst markets in the last 100 years, shouldn't we expect capital gains, and therefore the taxes from them, to be low relative to most other economic indices?
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

we're coming out of a recession and one of the worst markets in the last 100 years, shouldn't we expect capital gains, and therefore the taxes from them, to be low relative to most other economic indices?

The Bush Tax Cuts have netted us nothing. If they were so good the economy should be humming by now. In fact with those in place the economy never should have tanked.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

we're coming out of a recession and one of the worst markets in the last 100 years, shouldn't we expect capital gains, and therefore the taxes from them, to be low relative to most other economic indices?

since the stock market tends to be a predictor of the near future, you'd probably expect capital gains to be somewhat higher during the early part of the recovery - note the DJIA's back at 13,000
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

We could quote Barack Obama, in his reply to a question in a presidential debate during the 2008 campaign.

Candidate Obama was asked by Charlie Gibson from ABC News why he supported an increase in the capital gains tax rate, given the clear historical record that repeatedly shows the government losing revenue as a result.

Replied Obama, "Well, Charlie, what I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness."

Who needs revenue, eh?

You get your pick. Either drop the capital gains tax but tax corporate income the same as you would individual income (meaning on adjusted gross rather than net), or drop the corporate tax rate and tax capital gains as normal income for individuals. Frankly, I prefer the latter solution.

The money deserves to be taxed just as it would in any other context. The only question is how.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

You get your pick. Either drop the capital gains tax but tax corporate income the same as you would individual income (meaning on adjusted gross rather than net), or drop the corporate tax rate and tax capital gains as normal income for individuals. Frankly, I prefer the latter solution.

There's a third option that probably makes the most sense from a purely economic perspective, which is to unify the corporate and individual income tax code. A substantial number of business owners report business income on their personal income tax return (partnership income, S-corporation income, Schedule C income for sole proprietorship and certain kinds of independent contractors). To the extent that a rational tax policy (unless that is an oxymoron!!) is desirable, the tax treatment of business income ideally would not be a factor in deciding which form of ownership to adopt.




More broadly speaking, a purely income-based tax regime in today's world makes much less sense than a truly simplified, unified tax regime for individuals that would operate as follows:

1) report all cash that flows into the household, from any source whatsoever (asset sales, inheritance, earned income, investment income, royalty income)
2) you get a deduction for asset purchases, insurance premiums, deposits into savings accounts, employee wages and benefits (including housekeepers, repairmen, plumbers, electricians, and babysitters, since you only tax money once and they would then pay tax on it, not you)
3) you pay tax on a graduated scale on whatever is left

you've now eliminated the distinction between capital gains tax, income tax, dividend tax, and estate tax, they are all now part of one single, simple, unified tax structure instead. Imagine how much easier compliance would be! Imagine how much simpler it would be!


More importantly, you've shifted emphasis from frivolity to frugality; from over-consumption to savings and investment and a platform for future growth. The ancillary "green" benefits also would be substantial.



We very nearly had this tax structure implemented in 1943; Secretary of the Treasury Henry Morgenthau was a strong proponent and pushed hard for it. It lost by just a few votes in Congress, from representatives of cotton growers who voted against it because it was portrayed to them as a "consumption" tax...apparently they did not realize that instead they were STILL voting in favor of a consumption tax, except they were voting for a tax on consumption AND savings both!
 
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since the stock market tends to be a predictor of the near future, you'd probably expect capital gains to be somewhat higher during the early part of the recovery - note the DJIA's back at 13,000

Right, I assumed that any graph showing tax revenues was at least a year or two old as that seems to be the norm for compiling the data.

Edit: the existence of a lot of losses during that period would also suppress revenue
 
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Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

You get your pick. Either drop the capital gains tax but tax corporate income the same as you would individual income (meaning on adjusted gross rather than net), or drop the corporate tax rate and tax capital gains as normal income for individuals. Frankly, I prefer the latter solution.

The money deserves to be taxed just as it would in any other context. The only question is how.
Bingo.

What about interest income from municipal bonds?
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

What about interest income from municipal bonds?

Unless you mean only on newly-issued bonds, isn't that what's called changing the rules after the game has already started?

(I have no horse in that race either way, I just know our state would have to pay several hundred more basis points on its future borrowing if that rule were changed). Also, I'm not sure if there is some kind of sovereignty issue of states' rights vis-a-vis the federal government or not. I'm sure there is some expert here who could weigh in on that consideration.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

Unless you mean only on newly-issued bonds, isn't that what's called changing the rules after the game has already started?

(I have no horse in that race either way, I just know our state would have to pay several hundred more basis points on its future borrowing if that rule were changed). Also, I'm not sure if there is some kind of sovereignty issue of states' rights vis-a-vis the federal government or not. I'm sure there is some expert here who could weigh in on that consideration.
(a) See what Congress wants to do with stock options? They change the rules all the time.
(b) True and that may be the big sticking point.
 
Re: Obama XXIII: The Muslin Anti-Christ Wages War on the forces of Christianity!

One way to deal with Municipal bonds is to subsidize the bond issuer rather than the bond holder (e.g. in FF’s example, pay the extra basis points). The municipality could then pay competitive rates and there’s no need to subsidize the bond holder. I have no idea about the sovereignty issue; just talking pure economics.
 
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