Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Again, I await NPR firing a bunch of its other reporters who also give their opinions. But I'm not holding my breath. Mara Liasson, as someone else notes, will be interesting to watch. She appears on Fox regularly and gives her opinions regularly there. Admittedly, I think she's pretty good and probably more careful than Juan Williams was, but nevertheless, if it was on the generic issue of expressing opinions, rather than just reporting, NPR has a lot of housecleaning to do. I mean, that one older lady who does a show around the middle of the day is constantly giving her opinions on things.

You have a blind trust that NPR is right and does the right thing. Many of us don't.

Mara's an analyst. You're going to have to cite where she on FOX news has given just her opinion without backing it up with source information and data.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Being a news analyst doesn't mean you check your opinion at the door - but it does mean you offer fact-based analysis, using your own judgment, etc instead of open commentary. Maybe that's too nuanced of a difference, but it's easy for my ears to pick up. Commentary and opinion are not really the same thing, Bob.

I don't have any problem with Liasson, either. She is also an analyst. She, like Williams, is paid to offer fact-based opinions and critical analysis of the news, not just willy-nilly speculation and punditry.

Regardless, NPR has their internal standards (posted above) and it's pretty clear to me that Williams had crossed that line repeatedly. I also think Williams' work is well outside of the norm for what I hear from other NPR analysts both on NPR and on other mediums - including Liasson.

Again, I'm not a fan of Williams, but what he has said is hardly willy-nilly speculation and punditry. People are taking a few things he's said over a number of years, trying to paint him as some sort of rogue. Such an approach is either ignorant or knowingly smearing someone who usually argues on the liberal side of issues. So, you like Liasson, so you're ok with her offering opinions and believe them to be fact based, but you aren't so much a Williams fan, so out the door he goes. You try to make everything very sanitary and compartmentalized, when it is neither. In theory commentary and opinion are different, but in practice, there is a whole lot of overlap, whether your talking Williams, Liasson, or many others. I wouldn't have a problem with them dumping Williams if they held the same standards to everyone else at NPR, but it's glaringly obvious they don't, and won't.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Mara's an analyst. You're going to have to cite where she on FOX news has given just her opinion without backing it up with source information and data.

People providing source information and data to back up everything on one of these shows? What Fox (or other similar stations) is this that you speak of? They always have short, quick segments, with little or no detailed backup or documentation of where info comes from. Such is cable news. Liasson is thoughtful and intelligent in how she talks about things, but neither she, nor anyone else on such shows provides the sort of documentation you seem to think takes place.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Again, I'm not a fan of Williams, but what he has said is hardly willy-nilly speculation and punditry. People are taking a few things he's said over a number of years, trying to paint him as some sort of rogue. Such an approach is either ignorant or knowingly smearing someone who usually argues on the liberal side of issues. So, you like Liasson, so you're ok with her offering opinions and believe them to be fact based, but you aren't so much a Williams fan, so out the door he goes. You try to make everything very sanitary and compartmentalized, when it is neither. In theory commentary and opinion are different, but in practice, there is a whole lot of overlap, whether your talking Williams, Liasson, or many others. I wouldn't have a problem with them dumping Williams if they held the same standards to everyone else at NPR, but it's glaringly obvious they don't, and won't.

This is not the first time Williams has run afoul of NPR's standards. While I do not think his most recent comments are grounds for termination (and NPR's timing is horrible on the issue), I do think that NPR's product will now be better without Williams on-air.

Tell me this - how is it glaringly obvious that NPR doesn't have the same standards? That's a bold statement, Bob. Care to offer proof of that? The fact that both Liasson and Williams also work for Fox while Liasson is much more restrained and measured with her analysis (and, ergo, is still employed by NPR) is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary, is it not?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

This is not the first time Williams has run afoul of NPR's standards. While I do not think his most recent comments are grounds for termination (and NPR's timing is horrible on the issue), I do think that NPR's product will now be better without Williams on-air.

Tell me this - how is it glaringly obvious that NPR doesn't have the same standards? That's a bold statement, Bob. Care to offer proof of that? The fact that both Liasson and Williams also work for Fox while Liasson is much more restrained and measured with her analysis (and, ergo, is still employed by NPR) is quite a bit of evidence to the contrary, is it not?

I've listened to NPR for many years, and I have the power of observation. What, do you want me to write a book or something?

I mean, come on, the guy said he gets nervous when he sees someone in Muslim garb getting on the same plane as him. Something that at least a lot of us can understand and relate to given what has happened in this nation the last 10 years. But, as is too often the case, honesty is an early casualty when partisan actions are taken. I guess NPR will now only employ robots who have no emotion. Really, NPR's behavior here is one of the stupidest things to come along in awhile. Williams is on your side by and large. Don't clobber him for something really silly. It's just dumb on top of everything else.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I've listened to NPR for many years, and I have the power of observation. What, do you want me to write a book or something?

I've listened to NPR for years, too. And I just can't seem to square my observations with yours. Hell, I can't even square your own observations with themselves:

"Mara Liasson, as someone else notes, will be interesting to watch. She appears on Fox regularly and gives her opinions regularly there. Admittedly, I think she's pretty good and probably more careful than Juan Williams was..."

If I may interpret - Liasson met NPR's standards, and Williams did not.

I mean, come on, the guy said he gets nervous when he sees someone in Muslim garb getting on the same plane as him. Something that at least a lot of us can understand and relate to given what has happened in this nation the last 10 years. But, as is too often the case, honesty is an early casualty when partisan actions are taken. I guess NPR will now only employ robots who have no emotion. Really, NPR's behavior here is one of the stupidest things to come along in awhile. Williams is on your side by and large. Don't clobber him for something really silly. It's just dumb on top of everything else.

Look, I've already said that NPR's timing is horrible here - it makes it seem like they fired him for the Muslim remark when they fired him for a longstanding pattern of behavior.

And what's this about being on my "side?" Have you not read a single comment I've written? I have explicitly stated, over and over again, that what's nice about NPR is that they report the news with critical analysis of the facts, while most of the others report it with competing versions of uninterpreted spin for various 'sides.'

My 'side' is for reason, facts, and critical analysis. I'll let you in on a little secret - as much as Fox News drives me nuts, the single biggest reason I don't watch has nothing to do with their editorial positions (or their lack of any discernible wall between reporting and commentary) - it has everything to do with style, tone, and approach.

Williams got caught up in the Fox News style, and did so to the point where it harmed his reputation and the credibility of NPR.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

OK, this is getting to be a waste of time. You like NPR and how they do things. I have mixed emotions on them. Has it ever occurred to you that just possibly, maybe, you like them, to one extent or another, because their views on things are similar to yours? Having read your posts for years around here, I'd put you in a similar bucket with NPR. Definitely liberal, but not crazy liberal like a Rover or somebody. I just think you are naive on how you think the media can be so neutral and blindered and fact-based, while supposedly keeping their biases and opinions under lock and key while they do their professional media jobs. I used to buy into that a good deal, but have gradually done so less and less as I see that they make mountains out of molehills, barely report huge stuff, and just blatantly express their opinions, while at the same time saying they are just reporting facts.

As for not being able to square things, I've tried my best to help you. Sorry I seem to have failed.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I've listened to NPR for many years, and I have the power of observation. What, do you want me to write a book or something?

I mean, come on, the guy said he gets nervous when he sees someone in Muslim garb getting on the same plane as him. Something that at least a lot of us can understand and relate to given what has happened in this nation the last 10 years. But, as is too often the case, honesty is an early casualty when partisan actions are taken. I guess NPR will now only employ robots who have no emotion. Really, NPR's behavior here is one of the stupidest things to come along in awhile. Williams is on your side by and large. Don't clobber him for something really silly. It's just dumb on top of everything else.

This is exactly why he shouldn't have been fired. Everyone is focusing on this single incident instead of the pattern that exists. If you honestly can't tell the difference between Mara's analysis and Juan's then I can't persuade you otherwise.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

OK, this is getting to be a waste of time. You like NPR and how they do things. I have mixed emotions on them. Has it ever occurred to you that just possibly, maybe, you like them, to one extent or another, because their views on things are similar to yours?

Perhaps, but it's not about views, it's about style. When I see clips from Maddow on MSNBC, I find myself often nodding in agreement. But I can't stand watching MSNBC because the punditry style is grating and vapid.

You seem to be incapable of or unwilling to separate the medium and how the message is conveyed from the message itself.

Having read your posts for years around here, I'd put you in a similar bucket with NPR. Definitely liberal, but not crazy liberal like a Rover or somebody. I just think you are naive on how you think the media can be so neutral and blindered and fact-based, while supposedly keeping their biases and opinions under lock and key while they do their professional media jobs. I used to buy into that a good deal, but have gradually done so less and less as I see that they make mountains out of molehills, barely report huge stuff, and just blatantly express their opinions, while at the same time saying they are just reporting facts.

I am under no illusions of individual objectivity within the media, but again - that is not the same thing as open commentary. The answer to that problem is in checks and balances, in sticking to facts and relying on reason.

The very notion that objective journalism is just about facts is false. Journalists must use their judgment all the time in reporting, and I find that NPR does it far better than most. I know that because I consume a lot of news, I develop my own understanding, I use my own logic and extrapolate from various sources and then come to my own conclusions about the veracity of each.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

This is exactly why he shouldn't have been fired. Everyone is focusing on this single incident instead of the pattern that exists. If you honestly can't tell the difference between Mara's analysis and Juan's then I can't persuade you otherwise.

Never said they were the same, as I'd hope you would have noted from my previous posts. I've said multiple times that I like Mara a lot more, but the quality of Juan's reporting or commentary or whatever isn't much different than it was 2 or 5 or 10 years ago. He's never been that great. But he's not being fired for being marginal, but for saying certain things. NPR is saying it's for a pattern, but who really knows, other than NPR in their heart of hearts. If they have had an issue with him in the past, then fire him then. What he said recently can't reasonably be said to be bad enough to be any sort of straw on the camel's back, even if you buy that there's a pattern in the past. The dots just don't logically connect.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Was there an outcry about Williams' Michelle Obama comments at the time? I don't remember one, maybe I just missed it. Heck, I don't even get the reference he was making.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

If this was about professional standards, NPR head Vivian Schiller should be out on her keister after suggesting that Juan Williams should take up his opinions with his psychologist, suggesting that Williams perhaps has mental issues. After which Williams noted that he doesn't have a psychologist. I wonder if NPR will ever recover from this ever growing quagmire.

And a good editorial in the WSJ, noting that Nina Tottenburg has said far worse things, like wishing AIDS upon Jesse Helms' grandchildren, and is still gainfully employed by NPR.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303738504575568171234581384.html

Tottenburg is constantly giving her opinions on things, and doesn't shy away from controversial subjects.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

From NPR's CEO:
etc
etc

...none of which had ANYTHING to do with the declining quality of the analysis he gave on air for NPR, which is what I asked about because that is what you claimed has been happening. Try again or fold?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

This matter has resulted in an inversion: the liberals think firing Williams was not only appropriate but long overdue and to h**l with even lip service to freedom of speech. He's a wage slave at NPR and they can do whatever they want as regards his employment. Furthermore, the legalistic types are full of impressive sounding arguments to buttress their position. The inescapable fact, however, is that his words offended a Muslim special interest group AND were uttered on Fox. I believe NPR had been gunning for Williams becase of his association with "Faux" news. And I'll just accept the judgement of those who've suggested the quality of his work has "declined" since he began appearing on Fox. I'm SURE it has nothing to do with where those opinions were uttered.

I've offered a couple of hypotheticals, which our hard nosed liberal types have ignored. I'll pose them again.

1. If Williams had uttered the "offending" words on, say, PBS in an interview with Gwen Ifill. This presumes she'd find the time, given her propensity to advertise her ignorance and mendacity (at least when it comes to Sarah Palin). So ask yourself, and be honest, if he'd told Ifill of his jitters at flying with Muslims in full garb, do you honestly think the little lefties at NPR would have canned him? I don't.

2. I presume those of you who think NPR is totally justified in firing Williams, would have supported the firing of Walter Cronkite for a far more egregious breach of "ethics" when he called for us to pull out of Vietnam. If not, why not? What's the difference? And if you think Cronkite SHOULDN'T have been fired for saying the war was lost, etc., what would have been your position if he'd come out full boar for winning the war? Would THAT have been a "breach of ethics" requiring his termination? Why?

I don't expect any libs to take up these questions. The point is: what's most significant here is that Williams allegedly "offended" some people who spend every waking moment looking for things to be offended about and he said them on Fox. To deny this obvious reality, to obfuscate it with high sounding arguments about NPR's desire to improve its product, and that Williams work hadn't been up to standards for years (curiously, about the time he started appearing on Fox), is self-delusional.

I would prefer my liberal friends just tell the truth: Williams got what he deserved because he said what he said (which is hardly "offensive") on the broadcast home of all of those hated knuckledraggers. Just admit it. Stop trying to kid a kidder. It's not working.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

...none of which had ANYTHING to do with the declining quality of the analysis he gave on air for NPR, which is what I asked about because that is what you claimed has been happening. Try again or fold?

I said it was impacting his analysis. He can be as straight-laced as he wants on NPR, but if he's running his yap in another public forum, that doesn't work because he represents NPR's journalistic integrity even when he's not on the clock.

That is presicely the reason why a news organization like NPR forbids their employees from editorializing on their own time - that activity will color their professional work, even if that work is of the highest caliber.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I said it was impacting his analysis. He can be as straight-laced as he wants on NPR, but if he's running his yap in another public forum, that doesn't work because he represents NPR's journalistic integrity even when he's not on the clock.

That is presicely the reason why a news organization like NPR forbids their employees from editorializing on their own time - that activity will color their professional work, even if that work is of the highest caliber.

Spoken like a man who knows zero about the broadcast business and is evidently ignorant of the whole galaxy of media figures who spend just about every day commenting on one thing or another on other media outlets. It only becomes a problem when somebody strays too far off the liberal plantation. You guys are rewriting the hypocricy record books.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Ah, the old "everybody else does it, so I should be able to, too" defense.

I don't give a **** one way or the other, this whole thing is being blown completely out of proportion. But NPR having higher standards than Fox News or MSNBC wouldn't exactly shock me.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Ah, the old "everybody else does it, so I should be able to, too" defense.

I don't give a **** one way or the other, this whole thing is being blown completely out of proportion. But NPR having higher standards than Fox News or MSNBC wouldn't exactly shock me.

liberal = higher? Got it.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

liberal = higher? Got it.

Which is why I compared NPR to MSNBC...glad you skipped right over that one.

NPR is, generally speaking, to radio what the Economist is to magazines and the NYT/WSJ are to newspapers. All generally have higher standards than their counterparts.

Now I suppose you'll try to tell me that The Economist and WSJ are liberal.

For the record: I think most of the NPR crew and their associated devotees are a bunch of snobbish *****s. But I still recognize its superior quality to the typical drivel seen on any of the 24-hour news stations or most commerical AM radio stations.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Which is why I compared NPR to MSNBC...glad you skipped right over that one.

NPR is, generally speaking, to radio what the Economist is to magazines and the NYT/WSJ are to newspapers. All generally have higher standards than their counterparts.

Now I suppose you'll try to tell me that The Economist and WSJ are liberal.

I believe the technical term is "token." Nobody but you and Mr. Maddow cares what standards MSNBC has, because nobody's watching.