Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Let me clarify - it has nothing to do with the content of his personal politics. You're right, however: he was fired because expressing his personal opinions taints his role as a journalist.

This is about the wall between commentary and analysis, between journalism and punditry.

Were you around when Walter Conkite announced (on the CBS evening news) that in his opinion the Vietnam war was lost and we should get out? I'm assuming that by application of the "Williams principle," you would have wanted Uncle Walter fired for "tainting his role as a journalist" by "expressing his opinion." Cronkite expressed his views in the context of being a "news anchor," and not on another media outlet as Williams did. And it goes without saying that Cronkite was several orders of magnitude more influential than Williams (or any other normal reporter) could ever hope to be.

And what would have happend to Cronkite if he had come out in favor of the war and condemned the anti-war movement as tools of the communists? I doubt has masters at CBS would have been quite so supportive, and he might very well have been canned.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Forced by the ACLU...hey everyone the boogeyman is here!

The truth can be uncomfortable. Sorry.

I'd expect this from Rover, not you.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Let me clarify - it has nothing to do with the content of his personal politics. You're right, however: he was fired because expressing his personal opinions taints his role as a journalist.

This is about the wall between commentary and analysis, between journalism and punditry.

If you believe this, you are living in fantasy land. Lots of other NPR journalists express their personal opinions, and have for years, yet continue to work for NPR. The inconsistency is gross and obvious. If Juan expresses a more liberal opinion, no way does NPR fire him.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I dont have a side, I dont have a dog in this fight...I dont like Juan Williams and I never listen to NPR. I made my response based on a comment someone made that was ridiculous, which I in turn made ridiculous as well. The ACLU boogeyman BS comes up all the time, mostly by White Christian Conservatives upset that Non-Christians might not like how Christian certain times of year are and would like it toned down.

But hey since this has nothing to do with you, you can feel free to take your own advice and grow up or just butt out.

You sure are worked up about this for "not having a dog in this fight". Sorry I've intruded on your ACLU-love fest. Not everyone is enamored with what they are doing. But, hey, at least I don't work at NPR so I won't be fired for not having the right opinions.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

If you believe this, you are living in fantasy land. Lots of other NPR journalists express their personal opinions, and have for years, yet continue to work for NPR. The inconsistency is gross and obvious. If Juan expresses a more liberal opinion, no way does NPR fire him.

Or if he expresses that opinion in an appproved venue and not (shudder) Fox.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Or if he expresses that opinion in an appproved venue and not (shudder) Fox.

True. As much as NPR lothes Fox, I'm sure the venue was a factor. I've noticed the mocking tone that NPR folks use when they reference Fox (unlike when they reference fellow liberal outlets like CNN, MSNBC, etc.). Another reason I turn the channel from NPR whenever they start talking politics.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear in the text. Subsequent decisions may imply that such a separation is what the founders intended, but the words aren't there.

I refer back to my previous comment: I don't see how you can read the text of the first amendment and not see the intention of a separation. It's silly in the extreme to argue that no separation is there simply because the word "separation" does not appear in the text. The nature and boundaries of that separation are open to debate.

You either approve of punishing Williams for expressing his opinion on the hated Fox or you don't. You evidently do and I don't.

I haven't taken a position on it, because I'm much to ill-informed about the situation to have an educated opinion on it. I simply think that it's likely to be within NPR's rights to punish him, whether or not they should have done so.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I don't think anyone is arguing that NPR wasn't within their rights to fire Williams. I'm not arguing that, as I'm sure they followed the letter of their contract with him or whatever. But whether what they did is right or consistent with the manner in which a supposed publicly funded un-biased news organization should be conducting itself is a very valid and reasonable question.

And people wonder why there is little quality news and true discussion of issues. This is yet another example of why.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I refer back to my previous comment: I don't see how you can read the text of the first amendment and not see the intention of a separation. It's silly in the extreme to argue that no separation is there simply because the word "separation" does not appear in the text. The nature and boundaries of that separation are open to debate.


I haven't taken a position on it, because I'm much to ill-informed about the situation to have an educated opinion on it. I simply think that it's likely to be within NPR's rights to punish him, whether or not they should have done so.

That's me, schmuck, silly all the live long day. Must be tough having to deal with all the riff raff around here, however do you stand it? You just keep on lecturing, who knows maybe some of it will stick.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

That's me, schmuck, silly all the live long day. Must be tough having to deal with all the riff raff around here, however do you stand it? You just keep on lecturing, who knows maybe some of it will stick.

Craig has been lecturing me on this board for over a decade! Every few years he'll actually agree with me on something instead of lecturing me, and I almost fall out of my chair in shock.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I don't think anyone is arguing that NPR wasn't within their rights to fire Williams. I'm not arguing that, as I'm sure they followed the letter of their contract with him or whatever. But whether what they did is right or consistent with the manner in which a supposed publicly funded un-biased news organization should be conducting itself is a very valid and reasonable question.

Wait - NPR fires him for a pattern of statements that express opinions that, in their judgment, undermine his credibility as an objective analyst of the news (which is what NPR pays him to do), and you're accusing them of bias?

This is why I like NPR and PBS - they put together thoughtful analysis with a mind toward fair coverage. Their journalists, for the most part, understand this.

Cable TV news, on the other hand, thinks that objectivity is just getting two opposing viewpoints and letting them duke it out - whether that was Crossfire or Hannity and Colmes, it doesn't matter - there's a huge difference between NPR's desired analysis and Cable TV's supposedly objective punditry.

And people wonder why there is little quality news and true discussion of issues. This is yet another example of why.

This is hilarious. NPR fired Williams as a means of increasing that quality. His opinions decreased the quality of their newscast and blurred a true discussion of the issues.

His actual opinions aren't really important, the fact that he allowed them to color his analysis is.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Wait - NPR fires him for a pattern of statements that express opinions that, in their judgment, undermine his credibility as an objective analyst of the news (which is what NPR pays him to do), and you're accusing them of bias?

This is why I like NPR and PBS - they put together thoughtful analysis with a mind toward fair coverage. Their journalists, for the most part, understand this.

Cable TV news, on the other hand, thinks that objectivity is just getting two opposing viewpoints and letting them duke it out - whether that was Crossfire or Hannity and Colmes, it doesn't matter - there's a huge difference between NPR's desired analysis and Cable TV's supposedly objective punditry.


This is hilarious. NPR fired Williams as a means of increasing that quality. His opinions decreased the quality of their newscast and blurred a true discussion of the issues.

His actual opinions aren't really important, the fact that he allowed them to color his analysis is.

I have no idea what you are saying in those last few sentences.

As to the first part, yes, we understand you are a liberal and you like your liberal news outlets, and because they say things you agree with you think they are unbiased. That makes you as out of touch as all the rest who watch Fox or CNN or MSNBC and believe everything they hear. To your limited credit, NPR isn't as badly biased as a lot of the cable drivel, but the rest of us understand NPR's limitations and that they aren't some paragon of unbiased reporting.

And I have no idea what "NPR's desired analysis" is. Do they do biased analysis and then regret it and desire to be unbiased or something.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

It's simple, Bob. NPR hires Williams as an analyst. Not a columnist or a pundit, but as an analyst. He is essentially a reporter.

You can't see how mixing reporting and commentary doesn't work? That's why he was fired. NPR has said as much.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

His actual opinions aren't really important, the fact that he allowed them to color his analysis is.

Exactly what evidence did NPR cite to show that his analysis (on air for NPR) was being colored? Or, what examples can you give?

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Exactly what evidence did NPR cite to show that his analysis (on air for NPR) was being colored? Or, what examples can you give?

From NPR's CEO:

http://blogs.ajc.com/radio-tv-talk/...nprs-vivian-schiller-on-juan-williams-firing/

Q: Okay. What happened?

A: Let’s state a couple of facts. Juan is not an employee of NPR. He’s an independent contractor. He’s not NPR staff. He’s an NPR analyst. We have a contract with him for analyst opinions to provide news analysis. He is not a columnist or commentator. He also has an on-going relationship with Fox News. Mara Liasson is also on Fox News and is a full-time staffer. We accept that’s a whole other issue. However, we expect our journalists, whether they are news analysts or reporters to behave like journalists.

Q: So did Juan really get fired over just those Muslim comments? [He said he was uncomfortable with Muslims dressed in traditional garb on airplanes during a Fox News telecast yesterday.]

A: There have been several instances over the last couple of years where we have felt Juan has stepped over the line. He famously said last year something about Michelle Obama and Stokely Carmichael. [The quote on Fox News early last year: "Michelle Obama, you know, she's got this Stokely Carmichael in a designer dress thing going" and that she'll be an "albatross" for President Obama.]. This isn’t a case of one strike and you’re out.

Q: So this is obviously not an isolated incident.

A: There’s so much misinformation on the blogosphere, it’s nuts. This has been an on-going issue. [Here's NPR's ombudsman's piece on him last year after the Obama comment.] When he does that, when anybody does that, it undermines their credibility as a journalist or in Juan’s case, a news analyst for NPR. Those two things cannot go together.

Again, there's a reason why journalists and columnists stay separate.

From NPR's ombudsman, referenced in the above quote:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/ombudsman/2009/02/juan_williams_npr_and_fox_news_1.html

"Juan Williams is a contributor to NPR programs as a news analyst," said Ron Elving, NPR's Washington editor. "What he says on NPR is the product of a journalistic process that includes editors. What he says when he is not on our air is not within our control. But we recognize that what he says elsewhere reflects on NPR, and we have discussed that fact with him specifically in regard to his remarks on Fox News regarding Michelle Obama."

NPR's internal memo about Williams' termination, citing their employee manual:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...foxnews/politics+(Internal+-+Politics+-+Text)

First, a critical distinction has been lost in this debate. NPR News analysts have a distinctive role and set of responsibilities. This is a very different role than that of a commentator or columnist. News analysts may not take personal public positions on controversial issues; doing so undermines their credibility as analysts, and that’s what’s happened in this situation. As you all well know, we offer views of all kinds
on your air every day, but those views are expressed by those we interview – not our reporters and analysts.

Second, this isn’t the first time we have had serious concerns about some of Juan’s public comments. Despite many conversations and warnings over the years, Juan has continued to violate this principal.

Third, these specific comments (and others made in the past), are inconsistent with NPR’s ethics code, which applies to all journalists (including contracted analysts):

“In appearing on TV or other media . . . NPR journalists should not express views they would not air in their role as an NPR journalist. They should not participate in shows . . . that encourage punditry and speculation rather than fact-based analysis.”

More fundamentally, “In appearing on TV or other media including electronic Web-based forums, NPR journalists should not express views they would not air in their role as an NPR journalist.”

Unfortunately, Juan’s comments on Fox violated our standards as well as our values and offended many in doing so.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

blocksi,

I agree with the reasons he was fired, and I think he should have been fired for those reasons. But, NOT right after he made those comments. They should have done it a long time ago, OR waited a few months for this to blow over and he said his usual more stupid things on FOX that were less controversial then this, THEN fired him based on a pattern of NOT following the ground rules of his position.

Mara Liasson's opinion on this is going to interesting if she is allowed to speak it. She doesn't cross the line like Juan does and she refuses to leave FOX even though NPR has asked her repeatedly to do so (money talks).

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

blocksi,

I agree with the reasons he was fired, and I think he should have been fired for those reasons. But, NOT right after he made those comments. They should have done it a long time ago, OR waited a few months for this to blow over and he said his usual more stupid things on FOX that were less controversial then this, THEN fired him based on a pattern of NOT following the ground rules of his position.

Mara Liasson's opinion on this is going to interesting if she is allowed to speak it. She doesn't cross the line like Juan does and she refuses to leave FOX even though NPR has asked her repeatedly to do so (money talks).

No arugment there. Like I said earlier, I think the timing of this stinks. I don't know his contractual details, either - but it would seem to me a more prudent decision would be to just let things fizzle out and not renew the guy.

I think NPR's reasoning for wanting to end the relationship is solid, but they really can;t be surprised by this particular ****storm, can they? This kinda reaction could've been spotted from a mile away.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

It's simple, Bob. NPR hires Williams as an analyst. Not a columnist or a pundit, but as an analyst. He is essentially a reporter.

You can't see how mixing reporting and commentary doesn't work? That's why he was fired. NPR has said as much.

Again, I await NPR firing a bunch of its other reporters who also give their opinions. But I'm not holding my breath. Mara Liasson, as someone else notes, will be interesting to watch. She appears on Fox regularly and gives her opinions regularly there. Admittedly, I think she's pretty good and probably more careful than Juan Williams was, but nevertheless, if it was on the generic issue of expressing opinions, rather than just reporting, NPR has a lot of housecleaning to do. I mean, that one older lady who does a show around the middle of the day is constantly giving her opinions on things.

You have a blind trust that NPR is right and does the right thing. Many of us don't.

 

[moe24]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Posted for discussion.

Is this right on, over the top, out in left field (or right field rather)? What say you?

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[blockski]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Again, I await NPR firing a bunch of its other reporters who also give their opinions. But I'm not holding my breath. Mara Liasson, as someone else notes, will be interesting to watch. She appears on Fox regularly and gives her opinions regularly there. Admittedly, I think she's pretty good and probably more careful than Juan Williams was, but nevertheless, if it was on the generic issue of expressing opinions, rather than just reporting, NPR has a lot of housecleaning to do. I mean, that one older lady who does a show around the middle of the day is constantly giving her opinions on things.

You have a blind trust that NPR is right and does the right thing. Many of us don't.

Being a news analyst doesn't mean you check your opinion at the door - but it does mean you offer fact-based analysis, using your own judgment, etc instead of open commentary. Maybe that's too nuanced of a difference, but it's easy for my ears to pick up. Commentary and opinion are not really the same thing, Bob.

I don't have any problem with Liasson, either. She is also an analyst. She, like Williams, is paid to offer fact-based opinions and critical analysis of the news, not just willy-nilly speculation and punditry.

Regardless, NPR has their internal standards (posted above) and it's pretty clear to me that Williams had crossed that line repeatedly. I also think Williams' work is well outside of the norm for what I hear from other NPR analysts both on NPR and on other mediums - including Liasson.