Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

maybe we should ask Dietrich Bonhoeffer. just sayin. Hitler was no Christian.

There's a lot of gray here as Hitler frequently positioned the Reich behind Christianity.

Regardless, uno's general point stands...there have been extremist Muslims that are definitely not saints...and there have been extremist Christians that definitely have not been saints.

Yup, Christian lunatics, THAT's why we have the missiles. Don't you guys ever get tired of moral equivalence? I guess otherwise you'd be rendered mute.

Not sure why you're the only one who thinks moral equivalence is against 'the rules'.

If you want to defeat the logic, tell us why comparisons don't work...rather than say that you don't accept a commonly used approach in discussion.

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Yup, Christian lunatics, THAT's why we have the missiles. Don't you guys ever get tired of moral equivalence? I guess otherwise you'd be rendered mute.

I agree. WE don't have missiles because of Christian lunatics....but THEY have missiles because of them.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

No, I'm pretty sure we can close to definitively say that Hitler was not a Christian.
To quote from Foxton's favorite book

You will know them by their fruits.

Who cares where he positioned himself? Judge him by his actions.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

There's a lot of gray here as Hitler frequently positioned the Reich behind Christianity.

Regardless, uno's general point stands...there have been extremist Muslims that are definitely not saints...and there have been extremist Christians that definitely have not been saints.



Not sure why you're the only one who thinks moral equivalence is against 'the rules'.

If you want to defeat the logic, tell us why comparisons don't work...rather than say that you don't accept a commonly used approach in discussion.

This is intellectual dishonesty on steroids. Although there have been Christian bad boys in the PAST, we don't have any of them slaughtering tens of thousands of people NOW. And doing so in the name of their religion, which they say commands them to kill as many innocents as possible so as impose their religion on the rest of the world. So pointing out what Hitler or Charlemagne did is interesting but totally irrelevant when it comes to defending our country from terrorists TODAY. Actually, I'm guessing you need to be convinced they actually ARE terrorists. More likely Muslims angry at our lack of nuance and bigotry and just actin' justifiably.

You are either so dishonest you can't make this simple, obvious distinction or a fool. I'm inclined to the latter view. -30-

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I agree. WE don't have missiles because of Christian lunatics....but THEY have missiles because of them.

Must be tough, waking up every morning and no Soviet Union and Cuba's circling the bowl.

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Must be tough, waking up every morning and no Soviet Union and Cuba's circling the bowl.

Thankfully I have Iran and North Korea to root for. And most of Africa.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

An obvious ploy? It's too clever by half and makes no sense.

First of all, SecState is easily a more important job than VP. Clinton has already held elected office in the Senate, she doesn't need to have the VP office as a means of getting her name out.

Second, she can already affix her name at the top of the ticket in 2016 as SecState. More importantly, she can easily resign from that position and run for President full-time - something she can't do as VP.

Third, I fail to see how that would help Obama win in 2012. The bottom half of the ticket doesn't matter that much. Even if Obama loses, Clinton would still be in the same position for 2016.

In short, it doesn't make any sense for any of the parties involved.

Fourth, the strategy that VP = springboard to the presidency is hugely overrated.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Thankfully I have Iran and North Korea to root for. And most of Africa.

"Election" time in DPRK is so exciting. I say, nuke 'em 'til they glow.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Fourth, the strategy that VP = springboard to the presidency is hugely overrated.

Exactly. Bush I became the first sitting VP since Martin Van Buren elected to the top job. It's a great launching pad for a candidacy, but not a successful one.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

maybe we should ask Dietrich Bonhoeffer. just sayin. Hitler was no Christian.

Hitler maintained that the "terrorism in religion is, to put it briefly, of a Jewish dogma, which Christianity has universalized and whose effect is to sow trouble and confusion in men's minds."

Hitler once stated, "We do not want any other god than Germany itself. It is essential to have fanatical faith and hope and love in and for Germany."

There's really no point to drag this discussion out further. You can find quotes where something is anti religion but an equal or great amount that is pro. As for him somehow being "not" just because you don't like what he did, please point to a "true" christian.

Koblenz speech, August 26, 1934 "National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity . . . For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of today, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life . . . These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles!"

Mein Kampf: "I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

Speech from April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order"
"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .

And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited."

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

There's really no point to drag this discussion out further.

.

 

[Rimbaud]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

"Election" time in DPRK is so exciting. I say, nuke 'em 'til they glow.

Even money is on them nuking themselves.

 

[gregg729]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

There's really no point to drag this discussion out further. You can find quotes where something is anti religion but an equal or great amount that is pro. As for him somehow being "not" just because you don't like what he did, please point to a "true" christian.

There's really no point to drag this discussion out further. You can find quotes where something is anti religion but an equal or great amount that is pro. As for him somehow being "not" just because you don't like what he did, please point to a "true" christian.

The "No True Scotsman" is very relevant to this rather irrelevant debate. The irony of how it's applied though is comical, seeing how if if the given scenario was substituted with Foxton's assertion about Hitler in the "Real World Example" of the link he so kindly provided us, the rest of the paragraph would read nearly perfectly word for word. Dang, I guess I should have looked at the link more closely before I wasted my time with all these observations......

__________________

So I guess if "once a witch, always a witch" holds true then "once a Christian, always a Christian" (even if the person in question was not a Christian to begin with!) must certainly hold true as well.... at least in certain circles with a strong prejudice against a certain religion, right?.

Nevermind that 99.99% of Christianity views Hitler as an anti-Christ. Nevermind the fact that he never stepped foot in a church in his adult life. Nevermind the fact that his politically calculated lip service to Christianity ended almost immediately after he completed his consolidation of absolute dictatorial power over German government and society in 1933-34 and began to look at expansion of the Fatherland.

Only calculated lip service made to Christianity up to 1933-34 when there was a political gain stood to be made by it. Open, if not public, disdain for Christianity after his megalomaniacal dreams of being absolute dictator of Germany were secured. Never at any time after he moved away from his parents and became a struggling artist was there one single action that any reasonably intelligent person would construe as motivated by Christian beliefs - not so much as stepping foot inside a Church, even one time.

I think that there are people out there with strong prejudices who are so intent to discredit Christianity that they would use Hitler's empty lip service to the religion in his political writings and speeches as a desparate attempt to discredit the religion - even when it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

And I couldn't think of a better example of the "No True Scotsman" theory.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Even money is on them nuking themselves.

After the Challenger blew up a DC disc jockey had a bit where a silly sounding female (meant to be Christa McAuliffe) says: "what happens if I push this button." BOOM.

 

[XYZ]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

The "No True Scotsman" is very relevant to this rather irrelevant debate. The irony of how it's applied though is comical.

So I guess if "once a witch, always a witch" holds true then "once a Christian, always a Christian" (even if the person in question was not a Christian to begin with!) must certainly hold true as well.... at least in certain circles with a strong prejudice against a certain religion, right?.

Nevermind that 99.99% of Christianity views Hitler as an anti-Christ. Nevermind the fact that he never stepped foot in a church in his adult life. Nevermind the fact that his politically calculated lip service to Christianity ended almost immediately after he completed his consolidation of absolute dictatorial power over German government and society in 1933-34 and began to look at expansion of the Fatherland.

Only calculated lip service made to Christianity up to 1933-34 when there was a political gain stood to be made by it. Open, if not public, disdain for Christianity after his megalomaniacal dreams of being absolute dictator of Germany were secured. Never at any time after he moved away from his parents and became a struggling artist was there one single action that any reasonably intelligent person would construe as motivated by Christian beliefs - not so much as stepping foot inside a Church, even one time.

I think that there are people out there with strong prejudices who are so intent to discredit Christianity that they would use Hitler's empty lip service to the religion in his political writings and speeches as a desparate attempt to discredit the religion - even when it flies in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

And I couldn't think of a better example of the "No True Scotsman" theory.

It would have been easier to skip all that and just laugh at how bitter Foxton gets any time a steeple comes into view.

 

[gregg729]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

It would have been easier to skip all that and just laugh at how bitter Foxton gets any time a steeple comes into view.

Haha, fair enough. I've been away from here long enough that I forget who to take seriously and who not to.

(But I did want to make sure that particular path of idiocy was thoroughly quashed.)

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

maybe we should ask Dietrich Bonhoeffer. just sayin. Hitler was no Christian.

Well, you can say that. But then wouldn't you also have to say that Osama Bin Laden is no Muslim, since he's distorting that religion as much as Hitler distorted Christianity? Isn't it a bit disingenuous to paint one group with their extremists but disavow your own comparable extremists?

Or, perhaps more analagous, would a non-Christian (say a Hindu from India or a Jew from Ukraine) agree that Hitler wasn't a Christian, at least nominally?

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Well, you can say that. But then wouldn't you also have to say that Osama Bin Laden is no Muslim, since he's distorting that religion as much as Hitler distorted Christianity? Isn't it a bit disingenuous to paint one group with their extremists but disavow your own comparable extremists?

Or, perhaps more analagous, would a non-Christian (say a Hindu from India or a Jew from Ukraine) agree that Hitler wasn't a Christian, at least nominally?

You're right, you're right, and you're wrong.

1. You're right: Bin Laden is no way a Muslim in the sense of the religion as it is conceived of by the vast majority of the billion who practice it peacefully. You may as well say Pope Innocent III (for non-history buffs, a nasty piece of work) has something to do with how most Christians practice today.

2. You're right: The categorical syllogism

All Al Qaeda are Muslims
Al Qaeda preaches violent Jihad
-------------------
All Muslims preach violent Jihad

is unsound logically.

3. You're wrong: Hitler wasn't a Christian. To the extent that he was religious at all, it was to some ugly, shadowy, threatening fascistic ideal of a boot stamping on a human face forever. He would have made a great Objectivist, Neoconservative, or Andrew Lloyd Weber fan.

The best analogy for the bin Laden creeps is Fred Phelps. He's a complete POS and he's doing his thing in the name of a religion, but 99% of the practitioners of that religion wouldn't pee on him if he was on fire.

 

[trucker]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Bill H.R. 3808 is on Obama's desk to sign or veto. The bill makes it easier for the banks to foreclose on homes by the use of fraudulent documents. The way this Bill passed through the House and Senate is very, "troubling", to quote a lawyer in the linked article.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6955YX20101006?pageNumber=1

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Well, you can say that. But then wouldn't you also have to say that Osama Bin Laden is no Muslim, since he's distorting that religion as much as Hitler distorted Christianity? Isn't it a bit disingenuous to paint one group with their extremists but disavow your own comparable extremists?

Or, perhaps more analagous, would a non-Christian (say a Hindu from India or a Jew from Ukraine) agree that Hitler wasn't a Christian, at least nominally?

You could only say that if bin Laden didn't practice Islam... I'm under the assumption that its quite clear that Hitler wasn't a practicing Christian.