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Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

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Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Kepler said:
What I'm saying is the OPs and RCs and the Rovers and the Keplers are all playing for the same side ultimately, and the longer we let the extremists among us define our reaction to the non-extremists on the other side, the more time we waste while real enemies prepare their next strike.

We have to get our act together, folks. The internecine struggles were a luxury we could afford when we were way out ahead of the rest of the world, but the distance is closing fast. Just like with the debt, if we all don't swallow hard and take a serious hit to our pet projects and theories, then we'll eventually lose our ability to control our own destinies. We have a degree of power over where we go next that nobody else does in the world, but that very power lulls us into believing we can dick around for another year, election cycle, or decade and play chicken with our immediate political opponents. There's no parent telling us "enough already," so it's up to us.
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Agreed on the we're all on the same team point. As I often say I'd be more than happy to buy a beer for my sparring partners out here if and when we meet again in person.

However, I will confess some disgust with the people that got us off the track that you want us to get back on. The country ran really well in the 90's. That was partly due to a good President and a flexible opposition Congress who realized when to make a deal for the good of the country. Plenty of credit to go around.

The problem is IMHO that there's too much resistance to going back to what worked only 10 short years ago. In fact, there's a good deal of disagreement over whether the fiscal discipline of those years even happened at all. When you're dealing with people who won't even acknowledge reality its a bit tough to meet them half way. Right now we're in a situation where anybody who even expresses a hint of bipartisanship and a departure from ideological orthodoxy will get primaried out of office. As long as this is going on, I fear getting on the right track will take awhile longer. To that end, the people causing these fissures need to be identified and called out, even if it means a little more rancor. At this point in time, a mealy-mouthed "both sided do it" answer isn't enough. Who's doing it (impeding progress and cooperation) needs to be held responsible or things truly will not get better.

I wish I had an easier answer, but unfortunately I don't see one out there.
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Rover said:
At this point in time, a mealy-mouthed "both sided do it" answer isn't enough. Who's doing it (impeding progress and cooperation) needs to be held responsible or things truly will not get better.

I wish I had an easier answer, but unfortunately I don't see one out there.
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I had a thought about this driving to work this morning (yeah, I know, no life). Maybe during this time, hyper-partisanship could be the answer. Let's start with 3 axioms: (1) we're in serious trouble, (2) we're not going to agree on the solution, (3) anybody who tries a middle way will get destroyed by the radicals in his own party. (2) and (3) make compromise impossible, but (1) is the essential fact of our situation -- failure can no longer be an option.

What if we methodically take partisanship to its logical extreme in a purely "negative" (i.e., contracting as opposed to expanding) fashion? The party in power at any given time should simply ram through all the cuts it wants in the other side's goodies. The argument against this is that it makes their re-election impossible, but I'd argue that the combination of all 3 points above make re-election next to impossible anyway -- the incumbent is going to get the full brunt of public displeasure for not doing anything in the face of a true national disaster, and the opposition will throw wood on that fire.

If you're liberal, raise taxes on the rich and take the empire to pieces. The conservatives will wail that you're killing the golden goose and committing national treason or whatever. Let them. Get things done. Let the axe fall hard. Now you're conservative and you get your chance. Rip out the safety net by its roots. Let the liberals scream you're murdering babies and women and minorities. Whatever. Get things done.

What do you have at the end? Both sides bitterly divided and the incumbent party horribly unpopular? Maybe. Both sides frothing at the mouth but a balanced budget and a manageable place in world affairs. As opposed to what happens if we keep going the way we are: both sides bitterly divided and the incumbent party horribly unpopular, both sides frothing at the mouth while the country goes bankrupt and hyper-extends itself to become just another republic that committed suicide by trying to conquer the world.

It would be great if we had the discipline and foresight to manage things more reasonably, but quite honestly that probably doesn't happen in a democratic society -- the "good vs evil" card will always trump the "rational compromise" card when appealing to a mass audience. So, if you can't avoid irrationality, use it. Be a Berserker and run straight at the crisis, sword raised in both hands, knowing you'll probably be cut down. You're going to die anyway -- may as well do something productive with your brief time. And with 10 or 20 years hindsight, the people who live in a much more stable world will look back and think, "you know, that was pretty heroic what they did. Crazy, but brave."
 
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Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Kepler said:
It would be great if we had the discipline and foresight to manage things more reasonably, but quite honestly that probably doesn't happen in a democratic society -- the "good vs evil" card will always trump the "rational compromise" card when appealing to a mass audience.
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That was the purpose of the Constitution. It put major hurdles in front of gov't and forced things to proceed slowly. This forced a more reasonable solution on any change (when it even allowed change to happen in the first place). It also kept the gov't from getting involved into peoples' lives to the point where the country could go down the tubes.
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

MinnFan said:
That was the purpose of the Constitution. It put major hurdles in front of gov't and forced things to proceed slowly. This forced a more reasonable solution on any change (when it even allowed change to happen in the first place). It also kept the gov't from getting involved into peoples' lives to the point where the country could go down the tubes.
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IMO I might adjust the language a bit. The Constitution does two things:

- Its generally where the country should strive to function...it sets guidelines for the US

- It protects citizens rights from govt power
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Rover said:
Agreed on the we're all on the same team point. As I often say I'd be more than happy to buy a beer for my sparring partners out here if and when we meet again in person.

However, I will confess some disgust with the people that got us off the track that you want us to get back on. The country ran really well in the 90's. That was partly due to a good President and a flexible opposition Congress who realized when to make a deal for the good of the country. Plenty of credit to go around.

The problem is IMHO that there's too much resistance to going back to what worked only 10 short years ago. In fact, there's a good deal of disagreement over whether the fiscal discipline of those years even happened at all.
Click to expand...
If we repealed every law that has been passed since 1995, set every tax rate back (ooooh - another 3%!!!), and set every budget line item back to the same % of GDP as it was in 1995 - do you honestly think that's all it would take to fix the economy, given the state that it is in today?

You're like a Cornell hockey fan, hanging on to some long forgotten national championship and saying, "if only things were like 1970." Well, they're not, and there's no point in looking back. What do you think this Congress and this President should do next?
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

LynahFan said:
If we repealed every law that has been passed since 1995, set every tax rate back (ooooh - another 3%!!!), and set every budget line item back to the same % of GDP as it was in 1995 - do you honestly think that's all it would take to fix the economy, given the state that it is in today?

You're like a Cornell hockey fan, hanging on to some long forgotten national championship and saying, "if only things were like 1970." Well, they're not, and there's no point in looking back. What do you think this Congress and this President should do next?
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I'm actually like a BU fan, remembering the salad days of the 90's and the year 2008. :p

Setting the tax rates back to where they were the last time the budget was balanced eliminates excuses. If it could be done at those rates 10 years ago, why not now? See Lynah, the year 2000 is much more recent than the year 1970. Not sure if you realize that, but its true. Therefore, getting back to those levels isn't ancient history. It also adds back some certainty as opposed to the gimmicky stupidity of the Bush tax cuts (the need to croak within a certain year to beat inheritence tax, for example).

So, to your question. What should be done now? First, let all tax cuts expire. Everybody takes the pain. Resulting revenue earmarked for deficit reduction. Call that $300B. Next, bring back defense spending to pre-war levels. There's no way defense spending needs to be anywhere near where it was while we were fighting two wars. One is over (although I would accelerate troop draw down). One at make or break stage. Either way, knock $200B off of it. Next, beef up fraud detection and enforcement in Medicare/Medicaid program. I don't care if they outsource that function for those concerned about more gumbint bureaucrats running around. In such a massive program, there ought to be another $100B lying around. After that, means test Social Security. While it doesn't provide an immediate impact, it extends life of program without asking for more $$$.

Once this is done, I'd like to see idiotic tax incentives like drilling for oil or farm subsidies eliminated. All in all I'm now up to $700B. The rest of the gap will have to be made up, and should realistically be made up, by the economy getting back to normal growth rates again.
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Kepler said:
If we set the absolute dollars back to 1995 it would help, though.

In adjusted 2005 dollars:

1995 federal outlays: $1.9 trillion
2009 federal receipts: $1.9 trillion
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Now that, I could get on board with - perfect. Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth among public employees, though?
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Rover said:
So, to your question. What should be done now? First, let all tax cuts expire. Everybody takes the pain. Resulting revenue earmarked for deficit reduction. Call that $300B. Next, bring back defense spending to pre-war levels. There's no way defense spending needs to be anywhere near where it was while we were fighting two wars. One is over (although I would accelerate troop draw down). One at make or break stage. Either way, knock $200B off of it. Next, beef up fraud detection and enforcement in Medicare/Medicaid program. I don't care if they outsource that function for those concerned about more gumbint bureaucrats running around. In such a massive program, there ought to be another $100B lying around. After that, means test Social Security. While it doesn't provide an immediate impact, it extends life of program without asking for more $$$.

Once this is done, I'd like to see idiotic tax incentives like drilling for oil or farm subsidies eliminated. All in all I'm now up to $700B. The rest of the gap will have to be made up, and should realistically be made up, by the economy getting back to normal growth rates again.
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In other words, you agree that simply resetting things to the way they were in 1995 (or 2000, take your pick) would not get the job done - you're also going after more fraud in Medicare, reducing oil drilling and farm subsidies, etc, not to mention simply "hoping" that the economy will "change" for the better.

Hmmm - hope and change. That sounds familiar....
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

MinnFan said:
That was the purpose of the Constitution. It put major hurdles in front of gov't and forced things to proceed slowly. This forced a more reasonable solution on any change (when it even allowed change to happen in the first place). It also kept the gov't from getting involved into peoples' lives to the point where the country could go down the tubes.
Click to expand...
Is the use of the past tense (was) intentional???
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Kepler said:
O.P., those questions are about whether it's possible for animals to stop being animals, and the answer is probably not for that hard core group of the truly insane. But the questions aren't logically related to whether we reach out to the majority. It's the equivalent of saying should we extend respect to conservatives when there are people like Coulter out there who could then claim a victory. It's galling, but yes, of course that's the right thing to do.

I'd love a magic neutron bomb that blinks all the crazies from all sides out of existence in an instant, but (1) there isn't one that doesn't take out a thousand worthwhile lives for every creep, and (2) nobody's list of crazies is the same. So instead we have to muddle along, protecting ourselves as best we can while also not punishing or segregating out enormous populations of the innocent. It's maddening, but it's real life.
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When "Imam" Rauf says: "let me build it or there will be trouble," he's not talking about "moderates." He's talking about the Islamists who are already here and already plotting. The "Dr." Hasans who, after consulting with Awlicki (sp), go ape s**t and murder a room full of people. Are you confident there aren't any more "Dr." Hasans out there? I'm not.

Over the last 20 years or so we've saved millions of Muslim lives: in Somalia, Kosovo, Kuwait, Afghanistan and Iraq. Do we get any props in the Islamic world for doing so? Frankly, I'm not sure.

We've got over 2,000 mosques in America, hardly evidence of American intolerance of Islam. We've had no increase in anti-Muslim "hate crimes" and those "crimes" that were committed are overwhelmingly verbal, not physical. And the overwhelming resistence to Jihad City is based on location (not the fact that it will be one more mosque in the city), as is the desire by "Imam" Rauf to place it as close to GZ as possible. The choice of the name "Cordoba" is the giveaway that this facility will be, in their minds, located at the scene of a tremendous victory. And they're right. Just as it was no coincidence the "panty" bomber chose Christmas day.

There are limits to everything, including ecumenism. I hold no brief against Muslims in America, for the most part they're all doing what the rest of us are doing: trying to get by in tough economic times, etc. etc. But to ignore the elephant in the living room is to guarantee there will be more "Dr." Hasans, and worse.

More and bigger government agencies don't necessarily guarantee or even suggest better security. Collectively, we've probably over reacted to the threat. Admittedly, I would have been arguing that we should err on the side of bigger and better agencies. However, nine years after the fact, I think it's possible for us to take a look and make some common sense adjustments. Instead, we worry about nomenclature: is it "a war on terror," or a "war against man caused disasters?"

Terror is a tactic, employed by various groups over the years. What motivates the terrorists we're facing now is an interpretation of Koranic verses that requires them to murder as many "infidels" as they can. Somehow we have to figure out a way to separate the wheat from the chaff here. So far we've been both good and lucky. We were lucky with the "panty" bomber, yet Senorita Incompetance pronounced it as an instance of the "system working." If that's the standard for success, then another disaster (or disasters) is inevitable.

As I posted the other day, we're like Baby Huey. We take the wolf's crap the whole cartoon, 'til right at the end the 300 duckling grabs a handful of the wolf's neck and says: "you're not very nice," then dropkicks him into the next zip code. We need to do a better job of preventing the former and take every chance we get to do the latter.
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

huskyfan said:
way to stereotype.
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I think it was fairly (un) common in war, people get used to death and killings. I remember watching a documentary about WWII and several guys in that interview were talking about killing japs and cutting off their head and other body parts. because they did it to their comrades 1st.

Fear not. For you are all heroes. Honored In death and here after.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upsho...DeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXMEc2xrA3Vzc29sZGllcmRlcw--
Testimony and evidence unearthed so far indicates that the "kill team" was using hashish. Prosecutors say the men mutilated the bodies of the Afghans they killed, taking fingers and bones as "souvenirs," and posed for photographs with the corpses. Prosecutors have kept those images sealed for fear their release might incite violence in the Muslim world.

Morlock's attorney told the Los Angeles Times that his client participated in the killings under the threat of discipline or worse from Gibbs: "Everybody in the unit was threatened, from the beginning of this to the end, that if they were not on board, if they were a snitch … they'd get what's coming to them."

One of the charged men, Spc. Adam Winfield, alerted his parents to the violence via Facebook messages. Winfield's father reportedly went to the Army with his son's concerns and was told that the safest thing he could do would be to wait until his tour was over before reporting the crimes.

Two more civilians were killed after Winfield's father sought help from the Army.
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Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

LynahFan said:
Now that, I could get on board with - perfect. Can you imagine the gnashing of teeth among public employees, though?
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Yeah. our city employees didn't go for wage/hiring freeze and rotating to less than 40hour a week. Instead they opted to take the 5-10% pay increase (made prior to the budget shortfall) and let the junior coworkers go.

I think our congress wont budge till we're in the predicament of Greece.

Something like 15% of medicare is spent in the persons last month of life. I've to wonder why 80yo needs $10,000 test to see if he has a heart condition when dying of other reasons. but it's a death panel according to some people if you try to limit these type of tests.
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

"You put your car into 'D' to go forward, into 'R' to go backwards."

You have to hand it to the guy, the man loves his car metaphors.
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

WeWantMore said:
"You put your car into 'D' to go forward, into 'R' to go backwards."

You have to hand it to the guy, the man loves his car metaphors.
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Then again, when you've driven straight into a brick wall, R may get you where you're going better than D.

Whee, this is childish.
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

Red Cloud said:
Then again, when you've driven straight into a brick wall, R may get you where you're going better than D.

Whee, this is childish.
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Not if we backed into the wall. ;)

(Yes. It is silly.)
 
Re: Obama XVI: Muslin curtains in the White House!!!

I think this is the first time I'm voting independent. I can't stand Dayton or Emmer. Both disgust me on so many different levels.

I think I'm probably going to end up throwing my vote behind Horner. Unless someone can tell me why I shouldn't.
 
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