Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Well, since we're in the US and not elsewhere, I can tell you that it is most certainly a fundamental right that you can plop a mosque at any location you could also plop a church. Any restrictions on such land uses would have to apply equally to any faith.

And sorry, I just don't buy your sensitivity argument.

Richard Cohen put it well in today's Post:

Well, some of us think in broader terms. Sorry for confusing you.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Well, some of us think in broader terms. Sorry for confusing you.

Think in broader terms about what - legal restrictions on houses of worship, or Cohen's argument?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Think in broader terms about what - legal restrictions on houses of worship, or Cohen's argument?

About what is inherently the right or wrong or courteous thing to do, regardless of what a given law says or whatever. Expand the circle of your thinking a bit.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

About what is inherently the right or wrong or courteous thing to do, regardless of what a given law says or whatever. Expand the circle of your thinking a bit.

You're right - we should always work on courtesy.

I don't see what courtesy has to do with this mosque's location, however. Your desire for courtesy certainly does not trump the free exercise of religion.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

You're right - we should always work on courtesy.

I don't see what courtesy has to do with this mosque's location, however. Your desire for courtesy certainly does not trump the free exercise of religion.

I see I'm not getting anywhere on you thinking more broadly. Too bad.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I see I'm not getting anywhere on you thinking more broadly. Too bad.

Lazy platitudes about 'expanding my circle of thinking' aren't exactly persuasive arguments, Bob.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I can't quote on my phone so I'll just say this, my right to voice my desire for courtesy for not building a mosque near ground zero is on equal footing with their ability to build a mosque on their private property near ground zero. Why is that so hard to understand? The fact the some people like the idea of a mosque there and others don't care doesn't change the fact that I have a right to complain about it and protest it and publicly ask them to build eslewhere. From what I have seen here, no one is asking the government to step in and stop it directly. I don't want that either. I just want the imam to cave to public pressure or if he doesn't, I hope to god he is serious about his intentions.

In other news, why do you think the mormons ended up in Utah?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Lazy platitudes about 'expanding my circle of thinking' aren't exactly persuasive arguments, Bob.

My purpose isn't to pursuade you, as I know I won't. Just to point out that I'm talking in a broader sense that specifically what a given nation's laws allow or not as you are. No need to take offense. We're talking about two different approaches to the issue.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

my right to voice my desire for courtesy for not building a mosque near ground zero is on equal footing with their ability to build a mosque on their private property near ground zero. Why is that so hard to understand? The fact the some people like the idea of a mosque there and others don't care doesn't change the fact that I have a right to complain about it and protest it and publicly ask them to build eslewhere. From what I have seen here, no one is asking the government to step in and stop it directly. I don't want that either. I just want the imam to cave to public pressure or if he doesn't, I hope to god he is serious about his intentions.

All valid from where I sit regarding how the process of vetting should go in our country. I would say any belief that posters really disagree with your above position...is most likley due to miscommunication IMO.

Frankly I have bad memories of when a decade ago people protesting another issue were handily criticized for both voicing their opinions and the general process of protest. I hope to not see that kind of bs discouragement of free speech again.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm going to try to get off this mosque topic. I've registered my issues that I have with it, and there have been people, good friends of mine, that then complain about it.

I'm really getting sick of the "all Muslims didn't attack on 9/11 or celebrate it" excuse. You know what? All Catholics weren't in the IRA or supported them, but that doesn't make it a good freaking idea to build a massive cathedral in East Belfast, now does it?

Idea! Let's build a mega-church right outside the abortion clinic Eric Rudolph bombed in Alabama. We'll get a fiery Protestant minister to run the joint, some guy who refused to say whether James Kopp was wrong to kill Dr. Barnett Slepian and has rubbed shoulders in the past with the so-called "Army of God." Kosher? Surely it must be.

ZOMG THERE'S A STRIP CLUB NEAR GROUND ZERO? STOP THE FREAKING PRESSES!

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Good work at getting off the topic.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm going to try to get off this mosque topic.

Sounds like a plan. so where do yall stand on topless equal rights?

I'm for equal rights.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/this...rotest-space-kind-of-aliens-not-arizona-kind/

The organizers of Go Topless 2010 wants the law books to specifically promise “constitutional equality between men and women on being topless in public.” To let their cause be known, they have planned protests in nine American cities over this summer. At these protests, all of the women will go almost topless (they wear fake nipple stickers over their actual ones to protect themselves from the laws they’re trying to overturn) while the men all wear bras and bikini tops.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/23/venice-topless-protest-to_n_691254.html

Counter protest in the background, exercising 1st amendment rights.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm all for topless chicks in public, but any dude who voluntarily wears a bra in public needs to turn in his balls.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I don't really care if that happens, I just wish the federal court system would let states decide for themselves and do it right. Not let judges decide what the law should be. Judges are there to tell what the law says, not change the law because they don't like what it says.

So, you believe that a law cannot be overturned on Constitutional grounds? Careful what you wish for.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Good work at getting off the topic.

Had my final say and that's it.

Actually, here's my final say: Anyone who tries to claim that I or the vast majority of those who stand in opposition to the location of the mosque are trying to abridge their freedom of religion can go breathe underwater.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

So, you believe that a law cannot be overturned on Constitutional grounds? Careful what you wish for.

There is a huge difference between overturning/reinterpreting a law because a specific judge or panel of judges doesn't like what it says and rejecting a law or part of a law because the constitution doesn't allow the federal government to regulate/control something.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

There is a huge difference between overturning/reinterpreting a law because a specific judge or panel of judges doesn't like what it says and rejecting a law or part of a law because the constitution doesn't allow the federal government to regulate/control something.

That's a nuance many people miss, or ignore.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Well, since we're in the US and not elsewhere, I can tell you that it is most certainly a fundamental right that you can plop a mosque at any location you could also plop a church. Any restrictions on such land uses would have to apply equally to any faith.

And sorry, I just don't buy your sensitivity argument.

Richard Cohen put it well in today's Post:

Tell me, was Ike really protecting the south's "dewy Scarlett O'Hara way of life" when he sent the 101st Airborne into Little Rock and federalized the Arkansas National Guard to remove them from Governor Orville Faubus' control?

 

[Patman]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm going to try to get off this mosque topic. I've registered my issues that I have with it, and there have been people, good friends of mine, that then complain about it.

I'm really getting sick of the "all Muslims didn't attack on 9/11 or celebrate it" excuse. You know what? All Catholics weren't in the IRA or supported them, but that doesn't make it a good freaking idea to build a massive cathedral in East Belfast, now does it?

Idea! Let's build a mega-church right outside the abortion clinic Eric Rudolph bombed in Alabama. We'll get a fiery Protestant minister to run the joint, some guy who refused to say whether James Kopp was wrong to kill Dr. Barnett Slepian and has rubbed shoulders in the past with the so-called "Army of God." Kosher? Surely it must be.

ZOMG THERE'S A STRIP CLUB NEAR GROUND ZERO? STOP THE FREAKING PRESSES!

All muslims didn't perpetrate 9/11...

but

how many of them agreed with it?
how many of them denied it was done by Muslims?
how many then claimed it was done by Jews?
and of those how many thought it was a **** good idea anyways?

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BTW, for those not paying attention, it would seem that the imam involved is a "moderate"... as seen in the Islamic world... not how we would define a moderate.

blockski a "sliver of believers"... yes, a sliver of people participate in the action

http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2002/02/27/usat-poll.htm

from this what do we see? we see that the moderate view is that 9/11 was bad... ok... some hope... but then, yeah, the moderate view is that Arabs didn't do the attacks... presumably this implies that Muslims didn't do the attacks... bother.... the moderates believe that the west does not properly respect Islam.... oh, and back to the first one... when you are ringing in at 36% it would then appear that 9/11 being justifiable is a moderate stance.

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Here's the thing... we've been lying to ourselves... many of you want "moderate" muslims because you know there are a whole lot of nutters and you want to bridge the gap. Foolhardy... but that's what you are aiming for. I want "liberal" muslims and I want them to win the day because "moderate" is in the eye of the beholder and CAIR is going to dress up a lot of wolves in sheeps clothing because that's what you are willing to accept because they're appropriately sanctioned... by an organization funded by the Muslim Brotherhood... the MB are not moderate nor are they your friends.

We need a "liberal" Islam... an expansive organization that desire to expand is not going to moderate because it believes it is ascendant... we have to shock Islam into believing they are wrong either by hurting them on their rules (the Alinsky Doctorine as applied to islam and not anti-socialists) or making them take ours (reshape their society on our rules). Until the Islamic society in general sees themselves at a weak spot they will not change or moderate.

The elements of liberal Islam need to be encouraged... and we do it no favor by making moderates out of extremists... WORSE we do OURSELVES no favor by not using our own definitions of moderate and extreme... using them let their definitions is only a call to failure.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

The elements of liberal Islam need to be encouraged... and we do it no favor by making moderates out of extremists... WORSE we do OURSELVES no favor by not using our own definitions of moderate and extreme... using them let their definitions is only a call to failure.

Do we do ourselves favors by making moderates out of liberals?