Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

See - this is where not knowing the case makes it hard to comment.

In your first post, you mentioned that the farmer guy was busted for producing over quota. I interpreted that as: quota = personal use. What would you do with over quota crops? Maybe you'd use them to barter with the guy growing stuff that you don't grow . . . I dunno. Point is, if the law was meant to raise crop prices, then surplus amounts defeat the purpose - off-market surplus crops decrease the demand for those crops on the open market. Demand goes down, prices go down, object and purpose of legislation is defeated.

Again, none of this is to say that the law was good policy to begin with. I'm waay too ignorant of that case, and ag policy in general, to say anything about that.

I don't expect you to completely understand the case, I just wanted to use it as an example of how federal policy over reached under some sentence in the constitution. If they wanted that power, they need to amend the constitution, not make up law in the courts.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

How does me growing food in my own backyard for my own personal use have anything to do with interstate commerce? How would me digging up diamonds in my own backyard and keeping them for myself, have anything to with interstate commerce?

Wickard v. Filburn:

A farmer, Roscoe Filburn, was growing wheat to feed his chickens. The U.S. government had imposed limits on wheat production based on acreage owned by a farmer, in order to drive up wheat prices during the Great Depression, and Filburn was growing more than the limits permitted. Filburn was ordered to destroy his crops and pay a fine, even though he was producing the excess wheat for his own use and had no intention of selling it.

The Supreme Court, interpreting the United States Constitution's Commerce Clause (which permits the United States Congress to "regulate Commerce . . . among the several States") decided that, because Filburn's wheat growing activities reduced the amount of wheat he would buy for chicken feed on the open market, and because wheat was traded nationally, Filburn's production of more wheat than he was allotted was affecting interstate commerce, and so could be regulated by the federal government.

That power has since been somewhat reigned in by US v. Lopez:

The Court reasoned that if Congress could regulate something so far removed from commerce, then it could regulate anything, and since the Constitution clearly creates Congress as a body with enumerated powers, this could not be so. He concludes:

To uphold the Government's contentions here, we have to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional authority under the Commerce Clause to a general police power of the sort retained by the States. Admittedly, some of our prior cases have taken long steps down that road, giving great deference to congressional action. The broad language in these opinions has suggested the possibility of additional expansion, but we decline here to proceed any further. To do so would require us to conclude that the Constitution's enumeration of powers does not presuppose something not enumerated, and that there never will be a distinction between what is truly national and what is truly local. This we are unwilling to do.

The Court specifically looked to four factors in determining whether legislation represents a valid effort to use the Commerce Clause power to regulate activities that substantially affect interstate commerce:

1. Whether the activity was non-economic as opposed to economic activity; previous cases involved economic activity.
2. Jurisdictional element: whether the gun had moved in interstate commerce.
3. Whether there had been Congressional findings of an economic link between guns and education.
4. How attenuated the link was between the regulated activity and interstate commerce.

It is important to note that although the ruling stopped a decades-long trend of inclusiveness under the commerce clause, it did not reverse any past ruling about the meaning of the clause.

The issue in US v. Lopez was a federal act banning guns at schools, justified under the commerce clause - hence the discussion about guns being interstate commerce - and also the discussion about the limitations of this ruling.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

He's apparantly gravely ill. But Hitch cuts through the reflexive "pro-Muslinm" BS surrounding "Imam" Rauf to point out a "moderate" he is not.

http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Hitchens has Esophogial Cancer and it is pretty bad FWIW. If you see pictures of him he is at deaths door from the looks of it.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Wickard v. Filburn:



That power has since been somewhat reigned in by US v. Lopez:



The issue in US v. Lopez was a federal act banning guns at schools, justified under the commerce clause - hence the discussion about guns being interstate commerce - and also the discussion about the limitations of this ruling.

Quite true but I was just using the Wickard v. Filburn as an example of the supreme court deciding to over reach and make law instead of interpret it.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Earlier in the thread, I criticized MSNBC for existing to respond to Fox, for barely having 2 independent thoughts to rub together. At least after the morning show is over. (Or maybe they exist to recycle tru crime dramas. Hard to say sometimes).

But really, part of it is that when they attack Fox, they often come off as feral lapdogs. Bill O'Reilly's the worst person in the world? Thanks for the heads-up.

On the other hand, if they did it like this, it would at least be entertaining:

<table style='font:11px arial; color:#333; background-color:#f5f5f5' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='360' height='353'><tbody><tr style='background-color:#e5e5e5' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;'><a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com'>The Daily Show With Jon Stewart</a></td><td style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; text-align:right; font-weight:bold;'>Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c</td></tr><tr style='height:14px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:2px 1px 0px 5px;' colspan='2'<a target='_blank' style='color:#333; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap'>The Parent Company Trap<a></td></tr><tr style='height:14px; background-color:#353535' valign='middle'><td colspan='2' style='padding:2px 5px 0px 5px; width:360px; overflow:hidden; text-align:right'><a target='_blank' style='color:#96deff; text-decoration:none; font-weight:bold;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/'>www.thedailyshow.com</a></td></tr><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><embed style='display:block' src='http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:cms:item:comedycentral.com:351494' width='360' height='301' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' wmode='window' allowFullscreen='true' flashvars='autoPlay=false' allowscriptaccess='always' allownetworking='all' bgcolor='#000000'></embed></td></tr><tr style='height:18px;' valign='middle'><td style='padding:0px;' colspan='2'><table style='margin:0px; text-align:center' cellpadding='0' cellspacing='0' width='100%' height='100%'><tr valign='middle'><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor</a></td><td style='padding:3px; width:33%;'><a target='_blank' style='font:10px arial; color:#333; text-decoration:none;' href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/videos/tag/Tea+Party'>Tea Party</a></td></tr></table></td></tr></tbody></table>

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

He's apparantly gravely ill. But Hitch cuts through the reflexive "pro-Muslinm" BS surrounding "Imam" Rauf to point out a "moderate" he is not.

http://www.slate.com/id/2264770/

The money quote:

Let us by all means make the "Ground Zero" debate a test of tolerance. But this will be a one-way street unless it is to be a test of Muslim tolerance as well.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Earlier in the thread, I criticized MSNBC for existing to respond to Fox, for barely having 2 independent thoughts to rub together. At least after the morning show is over. (Or maybe they exist to recycle tru crime dramas. Hard to say sometimes).

But really, part of it is that when they attack Fox, they often come off as feral lapdogs. Bill O'Reilly's the worst person in the world? Thanks for the heads-up.

On the other hand, if they did it like this, it would at least be entertaining:

I did like some of this from Olbermann.
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[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm sympathetic to some of his views, but that Hitch column is not some of his better writing.

This is why the fake term Islamophobia is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about Islam must ipso facto be "phobic."

Nonsense. A logical fallacy is a logical fallacy. You can't change that just by using Latin. Which is why I've always said that the fake term "Arachnophobia" is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about spiders (or other arachnids) must ipso facto be "phobic."

Seriously, Hitch? Is this some ironic lampoon of the mosque debate?

I will say this: if the mosque *is* built, and the intentions of "reaching out" are genuine, I sure hope the project leaders start doing a better job of it. Sure, the backlash has been dismal. But that doesn't mean this project of "reaching out," "building bridges," and "fostering tolerance" hasn't gotten off to a ****-poor start.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Which is why I've always said that the fake term "Arachnophobia" is so dangerous: It insinuates that any reservations about spiders (or other arachnids) must ipso facto be "phobic."

To be fair, most fears of spiders are irrational. Some can kill a person, it's true, but that's more a fear of death than a fear of spiders.

Sure, the backlash has been dismal. But that doesn't mean this project of "reaching out," "building bridges," and "fostering tolerance" hasn't gotten off to a ****-poor start.

The backlash has been dismal? Why? Because you don't like it? At least you're admitting the hypocrisy of the planners. It's a start.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

In its most basic form, Hitch's claim is:
the existence of rational reservations/fears about something makes it impossible to have irrational reservations/fears about it.
As I tried to demonstrate, that's preposterous.

For your dismal backlash, I refer you to the construction worker who was accosted at one of the anti-mosque rallies simply because he looked muslim. Not that it would have been okay if he actually were muslim, but the fact that he isn't is kind of priceless.

And if that doesn't work, I refer you to Ron Paul:

We now have an epidemic of “sunshine patriots” on both the right and the left who are all for freedom, as long as there’s no controversy and nobody is offended. Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.

The statement has probably been linked earlier in the thread. We've already established that I'm not on top of that sort of thing. So at the risk of re-posting, here's one of the hundreds of possible links:
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-bl...-islamaphobia/?cxntfid=blogs_jay_bookman_blog

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Let us by all means make the "Ground Zero" debate a test of tolerance. But this will be a one-way street unless it is to be a test of Muslim tolerance as well.

After the first sentence, I thought it was a quote from Jesus himself.

Although further progress is needed, overall Islam has westernized considerably in the last twenty years. I wish my fellow Christians could say the same regarding Jesus' foundational position of tolerance.

Even so, I still consider this a tough issue, due USA equating to freedom vs. concern for societal pain.

http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08-20/ron-paul-sunshine-patriots-stop-your-demagogy-about-the-nyc-mosque/

I am still of the belief that criticisms of the administration are waay overblown, yet I am ready to switch to the GOP if it takes a couragous step with this guy:

"The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom? In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it. They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars."

- Ron Paul

 

[MinnFan]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Stimulus costs more than the Iraq War

Some interesting stats, especially the percentage of the deficit that is due to the war.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Quoting Ron Paul is a good way to get me to go in the opposite direction, FYI.

And I guess because there exists some racists within a certain subset (in this case, those opposed to the placement of a mosque at Ground Zero), that makes us all racists. Slippery slope arguments FTW.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Although further progress is needed, overall Islam has westernized considerably in the last twenty years.

examples please.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Although further progress is needed, overall Islam has westernized considerably in the last twenty years. I wish my fellow Christians could say the same regarding Jesus' foundational position of tolerance.

I want to take your class - with that sort of grading on a curve, it should be a cinch to get an A+.

If "Muslim tolerance" increased from 50 to 100 in the last 20 years, then "Christian tolerance" would be around 500 - and yet are still somehow the bad guys in the little drama in your head.

(and this is coming from a guy with THAT in his signature)

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

There is a reason I brought it up

Does that really mean they shouldn't have to say why they think they can make a law. Don't you think they shouldn't be lazy, they should know what they are putting in a bill before they pass it. Don't you think they should clean up legislation and require only germane items to be placed in a bill?

Sure, in a perfect world that would make sense. But we're talking about Congress. What would seem reasonable to a regular, normal person in flyover country makes no sense to politicos or the policy wonks. As a practical matter, most federal legislation does state its legal authority and intent. However, it's usually lost amongst all of the chaff of "legalese" that comprises a bill. Congress often talks about lenders, businesses, etc. writing their documents in "plain English" that most people can understand. Perhaps they should lead by example.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Quoting Ron Paul is a good way to get me to go in the opposite direction, FYI.

And I guess because there exists some racists within a certain subset (in this case, those opposed to the placement of a mosque at Ground Zero), that makes us all racists. Slippery slope arguments FTW.

Don't play the martyr. You're better than that. The backlash has been dismal because it has been characterized by so much demagoguery and idiocy. That's not to say that everyone who has voiced a contrasting view to mine is a racist. Ecological fallacy FTW.

FWIW, I wasn't quoting Paul to appeal to his authority. I was quoting the idea that he phrased so well.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Hopefully, this debate dies down soon, so I can stop talking like a coffee shop philosopher: slippery slope this, ecological fallacy that, affirming the consequent the other thing...

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

examples please.

Assuming you understand the difference between absolute terms and progress...

I have friends who have lived in the middle east for years. They are of the opinion that Islam has made huge strides. Also Democratic experiments in various countries.

Engagement in the Gulf...

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=8&ved=0CF4QsAQwBw

This is progress...although I was also of the opinion that Iraq was a bad idea and felt the Ws policies were dangerous in 2006.