Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
You're kidding, right? Or are we not talking about Obama anymore?
You're kidding, right? Or are we not talking about Obama anymore?
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Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
- Thread starter Shirtless Guy
- Start date
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French Rage
NICKERSON HAS [CENSORED]
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
My point is I just want to know if they are starting construction on that day or not. No real point, I just wanna know.
I was referring to the one in Cordoba.
Because maybe Hamas has a bit of cognitive dissonance going on and jumps right to assuming Cordoba's reasoning for the mosque is the same as theirs. As you are aiming at, they could know, or have been told, of motivations different from what is being publicly said, and there is no way I can say definitively that is not the case. But as is, the Cordoba people did give one reason for the location, one did I had not seen mentioned here as of yet, so I wanted to place it out there, but yes I cannot gaurantee it is not a smokescreen.
My point is I just want to know if they are starting construction on that day or not. No real point, I just wanna know.
I was referring to the one in Cordoba.
Because maybe Hamas has a bit of cognitive dissonance going on and jumps right to assuming Cordoba's reasoning for the mosque is the same as theirs. As you are aiming at, they could know, or have been told, of motivations different from what is being publicly said, and there is no way I can say definitively that is not the case. But as is, the Cordoba people did give one reason for the location, one did I had not seen mentioned here as of yet, so I wanted to place it out there, but yes I cannot gaurantee it is not a smokescreen.
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
He gave the reason. Hamas isn't that far removed from old IRA, they are both political "terrorist" groups.
I've to agree with Obama. build the mosque for "freedom" "religion" "tolerance" "peace" "rebirth" "understanding" "reconciliation" etc...
Maybe get them to build a Jewish temple and Christian church on the same site... and so all believers come together as one, in peace and harmony.
He gave the reason. Hamas isn't that far removed from old IRA, they are both political "terrorist" groups.
I've to agree with Obama. build the mosque for "freedom" "religion" "tolerance" "peace" "rebirth" "understanding" "reconciliation" etc...
Maybe get them to build a Jewish temple and Christian church on the same site... and so all believers come together as one, in peace and harmony.
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
That's the word. I hope it's not true, but even if it isn't, the supposed date of groundbreaking was always only one of many needlessly provocative elements of this whole thing.
Right, the one that should apparently just be disregarded because it interferes with the happier, group-hug version. I remember.
OK, I guess cognitive dissonance makes it OK. You've really covered all your excuse bases, I think. OK, BUILD THE MOSQUE ALREADY!
There's a lot they aren't saying. But none of this cuts to the point of all of this. People who oppose the mosque are being told that we need to be tolerant of other people and other cultures. Fine. What about us? No one has to be tolerant of us?
I've pointed this out before, I will do it again. There's already a mosque near Ground Zero. It's even closer. It was there before the attacks, it was there after the attacks. No one's saying peep about them. Do you know why? It's probably because they aren't trying to build a huge, in-your-face edifice that is ripping open what had been healing wounds. This already existing Muslim community just wants to have a place to worship, no more, no less. So I will say it again - if you really have a hard-on for a mosque near ground zero, why not support the community that's been there for 30 years and is trying to put together funds for a place to worship?
That's the word. I hope it's not true, but even if it isn't, the supposed date of groundbreaking was always only one of many needlessly provocative elements of this whole thing.
Right, the one that should apparently just be disregarded because it interferes with the happier, group-hug version. I remember.
OK, I guess cognitive dissonance makes it OK. You've really covered all your excuse bases, I think. OK, BUILD THE MOSQUE ALREADY!
There's a lot they aren't saying. But none of this cuts to the point of all of this. People who oppose the mosque are being told that we need to be tolerant of other people and other cultures. Fine. What about us? No one has to be tolerant of us?
I've pointed this out before, I will do it again. There's already a mosque near Ground Zero. It's even closer. It was there before the attacks, it was there after the attacks. No one's saying peep about them. Do you know why? It's probably because they aren't trying to build a huge, in-your-face edifice that is ripping open what had been healing wounds. This already existing Muslim community just wants to have a place to worship, no more, no less. So I will say it again - if you really have a hard-on for a mosque near ground zero, why not support the community that's been there for 30 years and is trying to put together funds for a place to worship?
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Yes, sadly. But he's shown a willingness to use force where appropriate (although this would admittedly be a quantum leap). Even so, only one president at a time, let's just hope he can be convinced, if the circumstances warrant it.
Think about the Saudis dithering after Hussein invaded Kuwait. We gave 'em a briefing showing that Saudi Arabia was next and they did a 180, like right now, on the issue of having "infidel" troops on their territory. Even as reactionary a regime as that could see the wisdom of changing the dynamic. It's possible Obama might do the same.
And I'll admit I'm just curious to see what a well placed MOP would do to their expensive deep facilities. The thing can penetrate 200 feet and THEN explode. I'd pay to see that. Ba-da-bing!
Yes, sadly. But he's shown a willingness to use force where appropriate (although this would admittedly be a quantum leap). Even so, only one president at a time, let's just hope he can be convinced, if the circumstances warrant it.
Think about the Saudis dithering after Hussein invaded Kuwait. We gave 'em a briefing showing that Saudi Arabia was next and they did a 180, like right now, on the issue of having "infidel" troops on their territory. Even as reactionary a regime as that could see the wisdom of changing the dynamic. It's possible Obama might do the same.
And I'll admit I'm just curious to see what a well placed MOP would do to their expensive deep facilities. The thing can penetrate 200 feet and THEN explode. I'd pay to see that. Ba-da-bing!
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
And what they view will be the view of a vast swath of the Islamic world... they'll use this as a sign of their strength and inevitability. They will also tie this to our withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. Nice that you use the IRA... an irrelevant group fading to history... is Islam going to do the same any time soon? Is mainline Islam going to fade into history... no... quite no, they aren't.
So, generalized ignorance?
Pwetty.... pwetty pwease Iswam guwys?
And what they view will be the view of a vast swath of the Islamic world... they'll use this as a sign of their strength and inevitability. They will also tie this to our withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan. Nice that you use the IRA... an irrelevant group fading to history... is Islam going to do the same any time soon? Is mainline Islam going to fade into history... no... quite no, they aren't.
So, generalized ignorance?
Pwetty.... pwetty pwease Iswam guwys?
Handyman
Hug someone you care about...
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Im right! (includes left wing source!)
Your source is biased I am right! (includes Right Wing sources)
Your source is a hack I AM RIGHT (includes more left wing sources)
rinse, repeat
Great, now that we are all caught up what is new?
(seriously, if we put Glenn Beck and Olberman in a room together this is what we would get only with more tears and swear!
)
Im right! (includes left wing source!)
Your source is biased I am right! (includes Right Wing sources)
Your source is a hack I AM RIGHT (includes more left wing sources)
rinse, repeat
Great, now that we are all caught up what is new?
(seriously, if we put Glenn Beck and Olberman in a room together this is what we would get only with more tears and swear!
)Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
If this is to dig the wounds deeper, to harbor animosity, to cause discord, to divide our country then they have already won.
without lifting a shovel, without laying a brick they have won, when we turn our constitution upside down, in fear of "symbolism" of a mosque and turn our fear into hatred.
If this is to dig the wounds deeper, to harbor animosity, to cause discord, to divide our country then they have already won.
without lifting a shovel, without laying a brick they have won, when we turn our constitution upside down, in fear of "symbolism" of a mosque and turn our fear into hatred.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Not jobs. That's for sure.
Great, now that we are all caught up what is new?
Not jobs. That's for sure.
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Hey you got the point. Hamas will go the way of IRA when Palestine becomes an independently run country. it's a political terrorist group.
Good for you. my faith in this thread has been renewed and invigorated.
You're absolutely right. We're not at war with Islam. it's called war on "terror" ... I would imagine war against any organization using terrorist tactics.
Hey you got the point. Hamas will go the way of IRA when Palestine becomes an independently run country. it's a political terrorist group.
Good for you. my faith in this thread has been renewed and invigorated.
You're absolutely right. We're not at war with Islam. it's called war on "terror" ... I would imagine war against any organization using terrorist tactics.
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
When we turn our constitution upside down? Are you kidding me? Are you still taking the blockski route and deciding that opposition to this mosque is hoping that the government will step in and shut it down without cause?
We are not the ones being divisive here. Governor Paterson, a man with whom I have never found common ground with since he took office, has an amazingly good solution. He's willing to sit down with the planners, find a different spot for them, even offering to find them some state land in Manhattan that they can use for it, and they can build their mega-mosque in its entirety there. You know what? As a New Yorker, I would be fine with that solution. If they want to build a giant mosque, they should be allowed to. But if they want to build it there, THEY are the ones causing division, and if you can't see WHY a mega-mosque within spitting distance from a place where Muslims acting in the name of their religion murdered 3,000 Americans, there's nothing I can do for you, you're just blind.
Thank you, by the way, for completely ignoring what I wrote in bold. Do none of the defenders of this monstrosity have ANYTHING to say about the already existing Muslim community? I mean, you people have a raging boner for talking about Shinto shrines near Pearl Harbor (that were there well before 12/7/41) or Muslims praying in the Pentagon (in an interfaith chapel) or strip clubs near ground zero (the terrorists didn't attack in the name of naked women - it's "Allahu akbar," not "Allahu titty bar"). Why not the existing community that isn't associated with this project and isn't upsetting anyone?
When we turn our constitution upside down? Are you kidding me? Are you still taking the blockski route and deciding that opposition to this mosque is hoping that the government will step in and shut it down without cause?
We are not the ones being divisive here. Governor Paterson, a man with whom I have never found common ground with since he took office, has an amazingly good solution. He's willing to sit down with the planners, find a different spot for them, even offering to find them some state land in Manhattan that they can use for it, and they can build their mega-mosque in its entirety there. You know what? As a New Yorker, I would be fine with that solution. If they want to build a giant mosque, they should be allowed to. But if they want to build it there, THEY are the ones causing division, and if you can't see WHY a mega-mosque within spitting distance from a place where Muslims acting in the name of their religion murdered 3,000 Americans, there's nothing I can do for you, you're just blind.
Thank you, by the way, for completely ignoring what I wrote in bold. Do none of the defenders of this monstrosity have ANYTHING to say about the already existing Muslim community? I mean, you people have a raging boner for talking about Shinto shrines near Pearl Harbor (that were there well before 12/7/41) or Muslims praying in the Pentagon (in an interfaith chapel) or strip clubs near ground zero (the terrorists didn't attack in the name of naked women - it's "Allahu akbar," not "Allahu titty bar"). Why not the existing community that isn't associated with this project and isn't upsetting anyone?
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to WeWantMore again.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to WeWantMore again.
Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Its an Islamic theocratic group... and Gazastan will not be allowed to become an independent country even if the West Bank is granted that status. Sure, its not quite the Taliban but they aren't exactly Barney and Friends. You CLEARLY have no idea who these people are, do you?
Its an Islamic theocratic group... and Gazastan will not be allowed to become an independent country even if the West Bank is granted that status. Sure, its not quite the Taliban but they aren't exactly Barney and Friends. You CLEARLY have no idea who these people are, do you?
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Cry me a river already, with that nonsense. The "victory" you're referring to is temporary. And I'm not so sure it's a "victory" given that Americans seem very nearly unanimous on this one, notwithstanding what our "betters" think about it. The alternative is to let them build "Six
Flags over Mecca" at GZ and give us the middle finger forever.
We're out here in "flyover" country, "clinging to our guns and religion" with the "phony patriotism" of our American flag lapel pins, but we know BS when we see it and hear it.
The argument, put forward endlessly by mosque supporters, boils down to this: they're asserting their First Amendment rights to build the thing and that ends the discussion. Everyone else's First Amendment rights to protest and do whatever the law allows to postpone, cancel or relocate this monument to violence and death are null and void. What you and they are suggesting is that only one side in a dispute has First Amendment rights. I'm guessing in other contexts you're not so quick to shut down people's ability to "speak truth to power."
Cry me a river already, with that nonsense. The "victory" you're referring to is temporary. And I'm not so sure it's a "victory" given that Americans seem very nearly unanimous on this one, notwithstanding what our "betters" think about it. The alternative is to let them build "Six
Flags over Mecca" at GZ and give us the middle finger forever.
We're out here in "flyover" country, "clinging to our guns and religion" with the "phony patriotism" of our American flag lapel pins, but we know BS when we see it and hear it.
The argument, put forward endlessly by mosque supporters, boils down to this: they're asserting their First Amendment rights to build the thing and that ends the discussion. Everyone else's First Amendment rights to protest and do whatever the law allows to postpone, cancel or relocate this monument to violence and death are null and void. What you and they are suggesting is that only one side in a dispute has First Amendment rights. I'm guessing in other contexts you're not so quick to shut down people's ability to "speak truth to power."
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solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
you're getting obsessed and that's not good.
the pentagon doesn't have a mosque. it's a room for prayer where everyone/anyone can go.
- I don't care how ****ed off anyone might be at real or preceived U.S. policies that "****ed" them off or offended or whatever. I don't care.
it doesn't justify murder and I also happen to believe the U.S. is the best country in the world and has NOTHING to apologize to other countries for. Thank you troops, thank you corporations who employ thousands of non-U.S. citizens abroad.
Your imply the hatred is justified by perpetually bringing up examples YOU feel justifies 9-11 and the hatred.
now to french rage -
1. Cordoba was the capital of the Islamic Caliphate of the 7th through 10th centuries. the one Bin Laden and Zawahiri CONSTANTLY use as a point of reference that they NEED to re-establish.
yes, that's not extreme.
how about the call the mosque aushwitz of something? would you finally agreee that's terrible symbolism?
2. there was a mosque in the area previously. so what? it's still there. this one is a deliberate provocation for all the reasons we've stated ad infinitum
3. 9-11-11. I'll believe mediamatters when you believe Limbaugh.
done and done
oh - NEWSFLASH - the U.S. brought Pearl Harbor onto ourselves as well, right
you're getting obsessed and that's not good.
the pentagon doesn't have a mosque. it's a room for prayer where everyone/anyone can go.
- I don't care how ****ed off anyone might be at real or preceived U.S. policies that "****ed" them off or offended or whatever. I don't care.
it doesn't justify murder and I also happen to believe the U.S. is the best country in the world and has NOTHING to apologize to other countries for. Thank you troops, thank you corporations who employ thousands of non-U.S. citizens abroad.
Your imply the hatred is justified by perpetually bringing up examples YOU feel justifies 9-11 and the hatred.
now to french rage -
1. Cordoba was the capital of the Islamic Caliphate of the 7th through 10th centuries. the one Bin Laden and Zawahiri CONSTANTLY use as a point of reference that they NEED to re-establish.
yes, that's not extreme.
how about the call the mosque aushwitz of something? would you finally agreee that's terrible symbolism?
2. there was a mosque in the area previously. so what? it's still there. this one is a deliberate provocation for all the reasons we've stated ad infinitum
3. 9-11-11. I'll believe mediamatters when you believe Limbaugh.
done and done
oh - NEWSFLASH - the U.S. brought Pearl Harbor onto ourselves as well, right
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
No Obama's not nearly stupid enough to bomb Iran. Don't think Bush is either...although he might have invaded it.
Constant yammering about tampering in folks lives (domestically or internationally), dumping gobs of money supporting some militant state somewhere or wanting the US to militarily intervene. Talk about blowing money outside the borders with very little payback for Americans.
Many so called conservatives on the board shouldn't claim that they support small govt...cause they don't.
No Obama's not nearly stupid enough to bomb Iran. Don't think Bush is either...although he might have invaded it.
Constant yammering about tampering in folks lives (domestically or internationally), dumping gobs of money supporting some militant state somewhere or wanting the US to militarily intervene. Talk about blowing money outside the borders with very little payback for Americans.
Many so called conservatives on the board shouldn't claim that they support small govt...cause they don't.
French Rage
NICKERSON HAS [CENSORED]
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
I never intended to disregard its existence at all, but I think that their name is meant to refer more to the city and its civilization at that time period overall, rather than solely the "look at us we conquered you mosque" in the city at that era.
If Hamas has its own reasons to support to mosque that are in no way related to the Cordoba group's, then I can't see how the latter can be blamed for the former making up its own stuff. As already said, though, if Hamas is being told something we aren't, then it certainly becomes a major issue.
This is a fair point and deserves emphasis. A mosque near ground zero is in no way inherently wrong, or a threat, or a celebration of 9/11. But as you mention, given the gravity of the area, if they want to be taken seriously in their proclaimed goals of moderation and toleration, tact and sensitivity to importance of their location are a must. As for the other mosque and their efforts to get something working, I don't know what to tell you, it would certainly have been better for everyone involved if they were the ones moving forward with something, and hopefully they are able to reach their goal.
I never intended to disregard its existence at all, but I think that their name is meant to refer more to the city and its civilization at that time period overall, rather than solely the "look at us we conquered you mosque" in the city at that era.
If Hamas has its own reasons to support to mosque that are in no way related to the Cordoba group's, then I can't see how the latter can be blamed for the former making up its own stuff. As already said, though, if Hamas is being told something we aren't, then it certainly becomes a major issue.
This is a fair point and deserves emphasis. A mosque near ground zero is in no way inherently wrong, or a threat, or a celebration of 9/11. But as you mention, given the gravity of the area, if they want to be taken seriously in their proclaimed goals of moderation and toleration, tact and sensitivity to importance of their location are a must. As for the other mosque and their efforts to get something working, I don't know what to tell you, it would certainly have been better for everyone involved if they were the ones moving forward with something, and hopefully they are able to reach their goal.
French Rage
NICKERSON HAS [CENSORED]
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
I don't have transcripts of everything bin Laden and Zawahiri said, but they were specifically referring to the period of Andalusian Spain to which the Umayyad Caliphate retreated after the Abbasid took control of the Middle East and North Africa, before the Reconquista? Yes, they took a name specific to some time in Muslim history, and given that caliphates were present is some form or another during most of Muslim history, surprise surprise the name can in some way be traced to the existence of a caliphate, and what they wanted to get across was the intolerance and repression inherent in the theocracy of a caliphate. We should ignore that of all the places and names in Muslim history they happened to pick one that, of all of those places, stands out as a place known historically for its tolerance and success, and that was seen at its time as likely one of the top places to be, because that's certainly not why they picked that name out of the multitude they had to choose from.
Really, I can understanding the reasoning for most of people's objections, and discussing them is a worthwhile task (we may not end up agreeing, but I still feel its worth it), but I'm sorry going after the name as a proof that they want to enslave America seems like a bit of a stretch. And you know what, maybe the name is just a name and picking it is just a smokescreen for more sinister motives, in the end I'm not psychic, but frankly is you're a Muslim group who wants to get across the idea of tolerance and moderation that would probably be on the short list of good ones to use.
How about I don't have to believe Limbaugh and you don't have to believe MediaMatters, and we simply find a legitimate source that shows that as the start date? Anyone can post something in a blog and have others repeat it, I'd like to know who the original source is.
I don't have transcripts of everything bin Laden and Zawahiri said, but they were specifically referring to the period of Andalusian Spain to which the Umayyad Caliphate retreated after the Abbasid took control of the Middle East and North Africa, before the Reconquista? Yes, they took a name specific to some time in Muslim history, and given that caliphates were present is some form or another during most of Muslim history, surprise surprise the name can in some way be traced to the existence of a caliphate, and what they wanted to get across was the intolerance and repression inherent in the theocracy of a caliphate. We should ignore that of all the places and names in Muslim history they happened to pick one that, of all of those places, stands out as a place known historically for its tolerance and success, and that was seen at its time as likely one of the top places to be, because that's certainly not why they picked that name out of the multitude they had to choose from.
Really, I can understanding the reasoning for most of people's objections, and discussing them is a worthwhile task (we may not end up agreeing, but I still feel its worth it), but I'm sorry going after the name as a proof that they want to enslave America seems like a bit of a stretch. And you know what, maybe the name is just a name and picking it is just a smokescreen for more sinister motives, in the end I'm not psychic, but frankly is you're a Muslim group who wants to get across the idea of tolerance and moderation that would probably be on the short list of good ones to use.
How about I don't have to believe Limbaugh and you don't have to believe MediaMatters, and we simply find a legitimate source that shows that as the start date? Anyone can post something in a blog and have others repeat it, I'd like to know who the original source is.
Kepler
Cornell Big Red
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Oh for Christ's sake. Cordoba is a historical touchstone because it was a center of learning and enlightenment.
Stop getting your history from right wing morons and learn something. Jesus.
Oh for Christ's sake. Cordoba is a historical touchstone because it was a center of learning and enlightenment.
Stop getting your history from right wing morons and learn something. Jesus.
solovsfett
Registered User
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2
Historybooks are generally not written with an eye toward balance nor are the authors of the texts disinterested 3rd parties.
So while I'll admit some of my sources *may* be to your way of thinking "right of center" I'd say the same for you most of the material I see posted here by people who support the mosque or support Obama are from "left of center" people or entities.
so this is a thread to vent opinions on issues of the day as they concern Pres Obama
in a nutshell for me
obama - no thanks
ground zero mosque - no thanks
how's that?
Oh for Christ's sake. Cordoba is a historical touchstone because it was a center of learning and enlightenment.
Stop getting your history from right wing morons and learn something. Jesus.
Historybooks are generally not written with an eye toward balance nor are the authors of the texts disinterested 3rd parties.
So while I'll admit some of my sources *may* be to your way of thinking "right of center" I'd say the same for you most of the material I see posted here by people who support the mosque or support Obama are from "left of center" people or entities.
so this is a thread to vent opinions on issues of the day as they concern Pres Obama
in a nutshell for me
obama - no thanks
ground zero mosque - no thanks
how's that?
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