Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Call me crazy, but wasn't the first world trade center attack by muslims (or those proclaiming to be muslims)?

That reminds me, how dare they have Japanese Restaurants near Pearl Harbor?

<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=japanese+restaurants+near+pearl+harbor+hi&sll=21.350621,-157.977047&sspn=0.10696,0.095272&ie=UTF8&hq=japanese+restaurants&hnear=Pearl+Harbor&ll=21.37416,-157.956267&spn=0.045983,0.038292&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=embed&hl=en&geocode=&q=japanese+restaurants+near+pearl+harbor+hi&sll=21.350621,-157.977047&sspn=0.10696,0.095272&ie=UTF8&hq=japanese+restaurants&hnear=Pearl+Harbor&ll=21.37416,-157.956267&spn=0.045983,0.038292" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small>

Somebody should've stepped in there!

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Another episode in the continuing saga of "don't even THINK about mentioning any excesses of Islam, otherwise you'll be chastised as a bigot and racist."

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...convicts-spine-paralyzed-man/?test=latestnews

 

[sagard]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Another episode in the continuing saga of "don't even THINK about mentioning any excesses of Islam, otherwise you'll be chastised as a bigot and racist."

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...convicts-spine-paralyzed-man/?test=latestnews

Too bad we've become so dependent on foreign oil and have to kiss their butts.

Major tax breaks to those businesses to get their employees to either work from home or somehow not drive to work.

Was really hoping Obama would lead our country to be less dependent on the Saudi's, but he seems to busy with all his various follies.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Too bad we've become so dependent on foreign oil and have to kiss their butts.

Major tax breaks to those businesses to get their employees to either work from home or somehow not drive to work.

Was really hoping Obama would lead our country to be less dependent on the Saudi's, but he seems to busy with all his various follies.

I don't know why we worship them. We get less than what? 10% of our oil from the entire mideast?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I don't know why we worship them. We get less than what? 10% of our oil from the entire mideast?

But it's a world market for oil, so even though we get a lot from non-Middle East locations, in the end Middle East oil is very important to us.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Another episode in the continuing saga of "don't even THINK about mentioning any excesses of Islam, otherwise you'll be chastised as a bigot and racist."

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/0...convicts-spine-paralyzed-man/?test=latestnews

Maybe we should start doing that. eye for an eye.
Although, eyewitness testimony is notoriously inaccurate from number of rapist exonerated based on DNA evidence.

According to Amnesty, in 2005, a convict in the kingdom had his teeth pulled out by a dentist because he had smashed another man's teeth out in a fight.

"We have also had cases of people sentenced to blindness because they have caused the blindness of another person," Chirouf said. "But never anything involving a spinal cord."

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Ok, let's get on that research:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/17/AR2010081701473.html




http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/opinion/17dalrymple.html



Laura Ingraham and the RAND Corporation. Some real lefties there.

As for this:



I won't defend the veracity of TimP's 'fact check', but if you're claiming that this site is "on" Ground Zero, that makes me think you've never been to Manhattan. And if this site is "on" Ground Zero, then we really need to protect the hallowed Burger King and OTB, or maybe even a gentleman's club.

Blockski - you and I see this much differently. I don't believe a word Rauf says.

I don't think one reaches out by endeavoring to build a mosque on GZ, calling it cordoba, the start date of 9-11-11, all the information we've gone over ad nauseum.

on 60 minutes he says that U.S. policies contributed to the 9-11-01. oh really? which policies exactly? our backing of Israel? too bad for you mr. imam but we're backing Israel to the end. So what else? the gulf war I that the world was behind? buying middle eastern oil (talk to your own leadership if you want to stop that). I don't buy it. The United States is not a demon, nor do we have to apologize ad infinitum to the world. we've given more in blood and $ to so many nations it's stunning.

Also, if you believe Rauf, fine but I don't know of a single policy anywhere that justifies the murder of 3,000 civilians.

it may be his right to say it, but it's also my right to say he's effed in the head, sympathizing and perhaps empathizing with terrorists in that statement.

this mosque in this area is wrong. I'm comfortable in that position.

the fact that 70% of the country agrees with me is icing on the cake.

as to whether the mosque is on GZ. I believe every building struck that day (and this was one of them) either by design or as casualties of "war" can be considered part of Ground Zero.

.02

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

on 60 minutes he says that U.S. policies contributed to the 9-11-01. oh really? which policies exactly? our backing of Israel? too bad for you mr. imam but we're backing Israel to the end. So what else? the gulf war I that the world was behind? buying middle eastern oil (talk to your own leadership if you want to stop that). I don't buy it. The United States is not a demon, nor do we have to apologize ad infinitum to the world. we've given more in blood and $ to so many nations it's stunning.

The excuses used to justify hatred of the United States around the world, far too often, are pretty thin. Osama bin Laden talked about American troops being present in his holy land. So what? The Saudi government (no pearls themselves) invited us to be there for their own purposes. Complain to them.

Because we back Israel? I'm sorry, that's garbage. We have to support them because people like Hamas and Hezbollah are out to KILL them. It's the hate in THEIR hearts that is causing problems there.

We rob them of their resources? No, we PAY them for their resources, which is all they have in their crappy little backward countries. Have a problem with the way the people reap benefits (or lack thereof)? Talk to the people running the show in your backward little nations.

As soon as we have the efficient means for renewable energy, what do you think is going to happen to the world oil market? They'll hate us when we DON'T buy their oil, too.

We're going to act in our own interest throughout the world. That's just a fact of reality, every country does. But there's no country on the planet that does more for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden of the world than the United States. If you think poverty leads to terrorism, you have your cause and effect reversed. Just look at the Palestinians. Just look at Afghanistan and Pakistan. Look at the areas of the Philippines controlled by Abu Sayyaf.

Why do they hate us? Because over the last 150 years, Americans have used the sweat of their brow to build the greatest, most powerful nation in the world, and they can't stand it. Now, we've got useful idiots actually agreeing with that. Might doesn't automatically equal right, but you can't name for me another powerful nation in the history of the world that has used that might to do what is right more frequently than the United States.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

But it's a world market for oil, so even though we get a lot from non-Middle East locations, in the end Middle East oil is very important to us.

Yes, I'm aware of this. However, the demand for world oil would remain constant. Even if the saudis decided to go renegade, the pressure from the world would be crushing.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Too bad we've become so dependent on foreign oil and have to kiss their butts.

Major tax breaks to those businesses to get their employees to either work from home or somehow not drive to work.

Was really hoping Obama would lead our country to be less dependent on the Saudi's, but he seems to busy with all his various follies.

The scary part is China is now the largest auto market. although population doesn't seem to mean squat. How can we use more oil than next 15 countries (#2-15) combined.
Most of our foreign oil is from our neighbors like Canada, Mexico and South America.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100816/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_economy

China uses more than half the world's iron ore and more than 40 percent of its steel, aluminum and coal. It passed the United States last year as the biggest auto market and Germany as the biggest exporter.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This game of Muslim types saying one thing in English and something else in Arabic is as old as the hills and will presumably continue into the future. Yasir Arafat was the master. "Imam" Rauf's book has a sensitive, huggy feely title in English and a somewhat different title in Arabic. The bottom line for me is I think he's a lying sack of wet brownies. Delusional at best, duplicitous at worst.

While I can't rule out the possibiity that he's being smeared by me (and the overwhelming number of Americans) I'm going with the evidence as I understand it. All he has to do is be more forthcoming about his project and its funding. I'm waiting.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/244120/cynical-brilliance-imam-rauf-victor-davis-hanson

 

[solovsfett]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

The excuses used to justify hatred of the United States around the world, far too often, are pretty thin. Osama bin Laden talked about American troops being present in his holy land. So what? The Saudi government (no pearls themselves) invited us to be there for their own purposes. Complain to them.

Because we back Israel? I'm sorry, that's garbage. We have to support them because people like Hamas and Hezbollah are out to KILL them. It's the hate in THEIR hearts that is causing problems there.

We rob them of their resources? No, we PAY them for their resources, which is all they have in their crappy little backward countries. Have a problem with the way the people reap benefits (or lack thereof)? Talk to the people running the show in your backward little nations.

As soon as we have the efficient means for renewable energy, what do you think is going to happen to the world oil market? They'll hate us when we DON'T buy their oil, too.

We're going to act in our own interest throughout the world. That's just a fact of reality, every country does. But there's no country on the planet that does more for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden of the world than the United States. If you think poverty leads to terrorism, you have your cause and effect reversed. Just look at the Palestinians. Just look at Afghanistan and Pakistan. Look at the areas of the Philippines controlled by Abu Sayyaf.

Why do they hate us? Because over the last 150 years, Americans have used the sweat of their brow to build the greatest, most powerful nation in the world, and they can't stand it. Now, we've got useful idiots actually agreeing with that. Might doesn't automatically equal right, but you can't name for me another powerful nation in the history of the world that has used that might to do what is right more frequently than the United States.

Very well said. and true.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Blockski - you and I see this much differently. I don't believe a word Rauf says.

I don't think one reaches out by endeavoring to build a mosque on GZ, calling it cordoba, the start date of 9-11-11, all the information we've gone over ad nauseum.

So, you don't care to address Sufism? The studies from entities like the RAND corporation talking about how this moderate brand of Islam is both well suited for western societies and the best means for peaceful relations with Islamic countries?

on 60 minutes he says that U.S. policies contributed to the 9-11-01. oh really? which policies exactly? our backing of Israel? too bad for you mr. imam but we're backing Israel to the end. So what else? the gulf war I that the world was behind? buying middle eastern oil (talk to your own leadership if you want to stop that). I don't buy it. The United States is not a demon, nor do we have to apologize ad infinitum to the world. we've given more in blood and $ to so many nations it's stunning.

Well, no wonder you don't understand these things.

Is it really that hard to understand how US actions might **** someone else off? There are literally millions of instances just like this in everyday life for you to draw on. Someone cut you off on the freeway - and you haven't been ****ed off at that before, but also cut someone off when you were in a rush?

The World might have been behind the first Gulf War, but we also encouraged the locals to rise up against Saddam, saying we had their back - and then we hung them out to dry.

You think carpet bombing Afghanistan might have generated some civilian casualties, and that such collateral damage might just fuel a little dislike for the US - no matter how righteous you think the cause is?

The thing is - our military commanders understand this. It's the entire basis for COIN - building communities, earning trust, eliminating civilian casualties, winning the hearts and minds, etc.

Also, if you believe Rauf, fine but I don't know of a single policy anywhere that justifies the murder of 3,000 civilians.

Who said it was justified?

it may be his right to say it, but it's also my right to say he's effed in the head, sympathizing and perhaps empathizing with terrorists in that statement.

this mosque in this area is wrong. I'm comfortable in that position.

the fact that 70% of the country agrees with me is icing on the cake.

Now, I thought this was a local issue. You might want to tell that to the people who live in Manhattan, who favor the Park51 project 53-31.

as to whether the mosque is on GZ. I believe every building struck that day (and this was one of them) either by design or as casualties of "war" can be considered part of Ground Zero.

.02

I got bad news for you at the Pentagon, buddy.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Blockski - you and I see this much differently. I don't believe a word Rauf says.

I don't think one reaches out by endeavoring to build a mosque on GZ, calling it cordoba, the start date of 9-11-11, all the information we've gone over ad nauseum.

on 60 minutes he says that U.S. policies contributed to the 9-11-01. oh really? which policies exactly? our backing of Israel? too bad for you mr. imam but we're backing Israel to the end. So what else? the gulf war I that the world was behind? buying middle eastern oil (talk to your own leadership if you want to stop that). I don't buy it. The United States is not a demon, nor do we have to apologize ad infinitum to the world. we've given more in blood and $ to so many nations it's stunning.

Also, if you believe Rauf, fine but I don't know of a single policy anywhere that justifies the murder of 3,000 civilians.

it may be his right to say it, but it's also my right to say he's effed in the head, sympathizing and perhaps empathizing with terrorists in that statement.

this mosque in this area is wrong. I'm comfortable in that position.

the fact that 70% of the country agrees with me is icing on the cake.

as to whether the mosque is on GZ. I believe every building struck that day (and this was one of them) either by design or as casualties of "war" can be considered part of Ground Zero.

.02

OK:
- The 9/11/11 stuff is completely made up: http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011. It'll take after that for the current building to even be demolished.
- The name Cordoba is a reference to 10th and 11th century Cordoba, which was one of the most advanced cities in the world at the time and where Muslims, Christians, and Jews coexisted.
- Those in charge claim the choice of a site close to Ground Zero is intended to be more of a challenge to those who perpetrated 9/11, instead of the site being known for the evils of Muslim extremists they want it to be known for the decency of Muslim moderates. Of course, that requires you to take what they say for their word, so I doubt that will move anyone to a different side of the debate.

And in his interview he did not say the US was a demon and did not call for us to apologize for anything, and most certainly did not say anything justified 9/11. If I say that the Treaty of Versailles helped create some conditions in Germany that led to WWII, am I saying the Allies were evil or am I saying they should apologize to Germany for it; no; nor am I saying that the Allies deserved WWII or anyone but the Axis are responsible for their own actions; but it would be foolish of me to ignore the affect it had.

Edit: That said, stuff like “The U.S. and the West must acknowledge the harm they have done to Muslims before terrorism can end” is sounding a lot like a threat and is less than thrilling to hear.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I got bad news for you at the Pentagon, buddy.

ZOMG, they built an INTERFAITH CHAPEL at the Pentagon where MUSLIMS PRAY?!?!

You're really reaching, now. Again, with the bigot claims, despite those claims having been thoroughly refuted.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

The excuses used to justify hatred of the United States around the world, far too often, are pretty thin. Osama bin Laden talked about American troops being present in his holy land. So what? The Saudi government (no pearls themselves) invited us to be there for their own purposes. Complain to them.

Because we back Israel? I'm sorry, that's garbage. We have to support them because people like Hamas and Hezbollah are out to KILL them. It's the hate in THEIR hearts that is causing problems there.

We rob them of their resources? No, we PAY them for their resources, which is all they have in their crappy little backward countries. Have a problem with the way the people reap benefits (or lack thereof)? Talk to the people running the show in your backward little nations.

As soon as we have the efficient means for renewable energy, what do you think is going to happen to the world oil market? They'll hate us when we DON'T buy their oil, too.

We're going to act in our own interest throughout the world. That's just a fact of reality, every country does. But there's no country on the planet that does more for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden of the world than the United States. If you think poverty leads to terrorism, you have your cause and effect reversed. Just look at the Palestinians. Just look at Afghanistan and Pakistan. Look at the areas of the Philippines controlled by Abu Sayyaf.

Why do they hate us? Because over the last 150 years, Americans have used the sweat of their brow to build the greatest, most powerful nation in the world, and they can't stand it. Now, we've got useful idiots actually agreeing with that. Might doesn't automatically equal right, but you can't name for me another powerful nation in the history of the world that has used that might to do what is right more frequently than the United States.

And we've expended American blood and treasure to protect Muslims over and over again in recent years. Yes, there was benefit for us, but that doesn't exclude the inherent good of lifting the burdon of Slobodan Milosovic and Hussein lifts from their backs

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

OK:
- The 9/11/11 stuff is completely made up: http://mediamatters.org/research/201008100011. It'll take after that for the current building to even be demolished.

Media Matters is not a source, it's a partisan organization run by a ratfaced little clown with a drum to beat. You'd have the same reaction if I tried to use Rush Limbaugh as a source, so stop even before you start on that one.

To boot - no one is claiming that a 13-story building that has yet to even start construction is going to open in 13 months' time. That's just Eric Boehlert hearing voices in his head again. Instead, construction is due to start on 9/11/11. A Sunday, if you'd like to check.

- The name Cordoba is a reference to 10th and 11th century Cordoba, which was one of the most advanced cities in the world at the time and where Muslims, Christians, and Jews coexisted.

Source? Because here's a source (from Spain) that says you're wrong.

The Great Mosque of Cordoba, begun in 786 by Abd al-Rahman I was the ultimate expression of Islamic art in Spain and the largest mosque in the West. Mansur gave the finishing touches on the Great Mosque in 988 with its huge expansion to the east. It was the main place of worship of the rulers of Al-Andalus and a sample of their political and economic power.

Oops.

- Those in charge claim the choice of a site close to Ground Zero is intended to be more of a challenge to those who perpetrated 9/11, instead of the site being known for the evils of Muslim extremists they want it to be known for the decency of Muslim moderates.

You may want to let Hamas know this.

 

[French Rage]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Media Matters is not a source, it's a partisan organization run by a ratfaced little clown with a drum to beat. You'd have the same reaction if I tried to use Rush Limbaugh as a source, so stop even before you start on that one.

To boot - no one is claiming that a 13-story building that has yet to even start construction is going to open in 13 months' time. That's just Eric Boehlert hearing voices in his head again. Instead, construction is due to start on 9/11/11. A Sunday, if you'd like to check.

I wasn't talking about the claims it would be finished then, as you said those are baseless from the get-go.

What's that article's source for claiming construction will start then, considering the mosque people repeatedly deny it? I've still yet to see anything other than articles just claiming it, so if there's something more definitive in all seriousness I'd like to see it.

Source? Because here's a source (from Spain) that says you're wrong.

Oops.

And that disputes what I said how? Regardless of the intent of the mosque in the city, the entire city itself was still one of the better of its times. One of OldPio's articles mentioning that it still wasn't exactly heaven on earth, but for the 10th/11th century, not typical seen as a high point of civilization anywhere, it sounds like one of the better places to be.

You may want to let Hamas know this.

I could make various claims about why Cal is rebuilding Memoral Stadium, but as I'm not in any way actually involved with the project that makes my opinion worth a bucket 'o' spit.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

What's that article's source for claiming construction will start then, considering the mosque people repeatedly deny it?

They've denied in domestic news outlets that they are raising money overseas to the contrary of their statements in overseas outlets. What's your point?

Regardless of the intent of the mosque in the city

Uh... yeah, regardless of the mosque they're building 2 blocks from the World Trade Center site...

I could make various claims about why Cal is rebuilding Memoral Stadium, but as I'm not in any way actually involved with the project that makes my opinion worth a bucket 'o' spit.

But you just said that this mosque should scare the crap out of organizations like Hamas. Why doesn't it? Why do they WANT it?

Next time, maybe you should actually read the sources. Any more excuses we should be made aware of, or are 54% of Democrats just bigots?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Meanwhile, it's possible the president may have to face a tough decision that's not a "local" matter.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...lay-stop-irans-nuclear-program-officials-say/


I say: get the MOP's operational and warm up the B-2s in the bullpen.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-preparing-bomb-iran/story?id=8765343