Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

First off Cordoba, or Qurtuba as it was called, was the capital of the Islamic Caliphate. It was first captured around 716-720 or so and was held until the middle of the 10th century where it changed hands several times. Now this name matters because it's Bin Laden and Zawahiri's dream to re-establish the Islamic Caliphate from those times. It matters because in so choosing that name the people behind this project are saying F U america. It's impossible for them to deny what the name connotes and in choosing to build on GZ, with that name and break ground on 9-11-11, they're sticking us. but you just don't get it.

This is no different than if someone shot an abortion doctor, and I put up a commercial building next door called it the name of the murderer, and dedicated the building on that date of the doctor's death.

So now you can read minds, and know the exact motivations behind why people are building this mosque. Great, could you please tell me who will win the World Series this year as I'd like harness your abilities to make a few bucks if you don't mind.

Beyond that, lets examine one direct falsehood. This is not going up on Ground Zero - that's an out and out lie. What's the difference between a mosque two blocks away and the existing one four blocks away?

Next, I want some verification, not from The Guardian or other such nonsense, that groundbreaking is indeed on 9-11-11. Because slov, no offense, but sometimes, just sometimes, conservatives make up stuff to try to inflame people (See Briebert, Andrew).

2. ok this is the nitty gritty. How about this? What if the mosque was being built EXACTLY where it is, and was not initially called Cordoba, nor being built by the Cordoba foundation, nor having a start date of 9-11-11?
I'm perfectly FINE with that. But clearly these guys don't intend for this to be an everyday mosque, they intend for it to be the symbol of victory over the United States. Hence all of their symbolism...and again, they chose that. not me.

And again, this is based on your apparent ability to read multiple minds at the same time which you may want to put to a scientific test. What the crux of your argument is is that these people feel the same way as OBL. That's a heavy charge to make with no evidence behind it. Does Cordoba also mean something else? I don't know, but to automatically jump to the conclusion that it means likeminded thought with OBL is the kind of deep thinking one comes to expect from the right.

3. You have to absolutely be kidding right?

Not at all. How many times do you hear people talk about how they vote GOP because they're "values voters" then you find out they're on their 3rd marriage and haven't been to church in the new millenium yet. The GOP, and their ilk, appeal to "sunshine conservatives". Why else would sexual harrassers and drug users be their official spokespeople in the media?

 

[BassAle]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Last week we had stats on here saying that 2% of small business owners would be impacted and social programs have a higher impact on GDP than tax reductions

we don't have the money for the tax reductions OR social programs

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Perhaps part of the reason for gridlock is the ready availability of stats to support any argument...people read stats in an article and I guess think "well that must be true, they have percentages and everything".

Further, there is an expert, from a third party organization, willing to offer expert opinion on anything that supports the cause. So, Professor Bias from XYZ Univeristy just happened to be available to comment on whether wind is better than solar. It rarely states that the good professor is funded by the wind power industry.

Then everybody runs around thinking they 'know' the truth or the answer and anybody who disagrees is lying/crazy/partisan, or all of the above.

I think this is an excellent point and obviously it cuts both ways. Ignorance of basic political facts cuts across all demographics: age, gender, affiliation, income. Education is the only relatively strong correlate, not surprisingly (not that people learn the facts in school, but they either learn the way to gather their own facts, or higher educational attainment self-selects on people who already have the skills and inclination).

Then the false certainty is reinforced because people interact with others who think like them.

I doubt contrary statistics would shake people in their certainty, though. Just a few weeks ago we were discussing the Backfire Effect: when presented with direct, objective refutation of their misconceptions, people retrench and actually believe more strongly.

BTW, there's a stinger in the tail in that article, particularly since in this forum many of us are far more informed and involved than the general population:

A 2006 study by Charles Taber and Milton Lodge at Stony Brook University showed that politically sophisticated thinkers were even less open to new information than less sophisticated types. These people may be factually right about 90 percent of things, but their confidence makes it nearly impossible to correct the 10 percent on which they’re totally wrong.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Ah, I see the President's official ambassador to USCHO.com from the Ministry of Truth has returned.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I think this is an excellent point and obviously it cuts both ways. Ignorance of basic political facts cuts across all demographics: age, gender, affiliation, income. Education is the only relatively strong correlate, not surprisingly (not that people learn the facts in school, but they either learn the way to gather their own facts, or higher educational attainment self-selects on people who already have the skills and inclination).

Then the false certainty is reinforced because people interact with others who think like them.

I doubt contrary statistics would shake people in their certainty, though. Just a few weeks ago we were discussing the Backfire Effect: when presented with direct, objective refutation of their misconceptions, people retrench and actually believe more strongly.

BTW, there's a stinger in the tail in that article, particularly since in this forum many of us are far more informed and involved than the general population:

Hey, I wasn't saying it applied to me! I know I'm always right...it is the rest of you guys that need to do some learnin'

Of course, anybody who agrees with me is also right, for however long it takes them to disagree with me on something else...then they become an idiot. It is a simple philosophy but it works for me.

 

[ScottM]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

we don't have the money for the tax reductions OR social programs

Agreed. It's time the politicos start to take the deficit/national debt issues seriously.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703723504575425851623589976.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTWhatsNews

 

[Rover]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Interesting...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-...que-controversy-america-has-disgraced-itself/

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Agreed. It's time the politicos start to take the deficit/national debt issues seriously.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703723504575425851623589976.html?mod=WSJ_hps_LEFTWhatsNews

I'm really skeptical that when people say "we need to pay higher taxes and accept fewer entitlements" they are actually saying "I need to pay higher taxes and accept fewer entitlements." But we have to start somewhere.

I don't think this gets fixed systemically unless (1) it's bipartisan (Dems yield on social programs, GOP yields on military and tax increases, both sides yield on corporate welfare and The Empire), (2) there's a true, immediate, impossible to ignore crisis (and we're not there yet, because now it's only seeing the truck approaching in the oncoming lane, and most people will require an actual impact before they will back true austerity), and (3) health care reform keeps up the steam and continues to morph into a system that contains costs -- something the pre-reform status quo was not doing.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

If I could trade winning a toss up seat in exchange for Harry Reid biting the dust, I'd make that deal six days a week and twice on Sunday.

I would gladly give you Delaware in exchange for 6 years of Angle.

 

[pirate]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm really skeptical that when people say "we need to pay higher taxes and accept fewer entitlements" they are actually saying "I need to pay higher taxes and accept fewer entitlements." But we have to start somewhere.

QUOTE]

Agreed...if this was my business to run I would want to see the expense cuts start before I supplied more funding to the business in other line items.

That isn't a political statement, just a business rule...don't give them more funding until they've shown they can control the run rate spending. So, I'd vote for a tax increase that only takes effect if there is a budget reduction of the right proportion.

Also, I don't operate on the 'hamburger next tuesday' method...show me the cuts in this year's budget and I'll show you the funding in this year's line items.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Agreed...if this was my business to run I would want to see the expense cuts start before I supplied more funding to the business in other line items.

That isn't a political statement, just a business rule...don't give them more funding until they've shown they can control the run rate spending. So, I'd vote for a tax increase that only takes effect if there is a budget reduction of the right proportion.

Also, I don't operate on the 'hamburger next tuesday' method...show me the cuts in this year's budget and I'll show you the funding in this year's line items.

I'd even go so far as to say that if they cut spending and balance the budget, they can nominally raise taxes.....so long as the additional revenue is applied to the deficit and not to government programs.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'd even go so far as to say that if they cut spending and balance the budget, they can nominally raise taxes.....so long as the additional revenue is applied to the deficit and not to government programs.

Agreed. But that would take a titanic change in the Beltway.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Agreed. But that would take a titanic change in the Beltway.

We already got titanic change in 2008. Please be more specific.

 

[blockski]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Agreed...if this was my business to run I would want to see the expense cuts start before I supplied more funding to the business in other line items.

That isn't a political statement, just a business rule...don't give them more funding until they've shown they can control the run rate spending. So, I'd vote for a tax increase that only takes effect if there is a budget reduction of the right proportion.

Also, I don't operate on the 'hamburger next tuesday' method...show me the cuts in this year's budget and I'll show you the funding in this year's line items.

Just be careful about throwing out the "let's run government like a business" card. There are lots of places where government can and should be run more efficiently.

There are also plenty of areas where it specifically is not allowed to run more efficiently because of various legislative mandates, etc. So, business rules of thumb are great, but can be largely meaningless. Most businesses don't have the kinds of contracting and hiring rules in place that governments do - because there are various laws against cronyism and bad contracting - which adds red tape, and thus delay and cost.

Point being, government is different from business for a reason.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'd even go so far as to say that if they cut spending and balance the budget, they can nominally raise taxes.....so long as the additional revenue is applied to the deficit and not to government programs.

This is tricky to implement -- a dollar is a dollar. Since people have extreme emotional resistance to a "cut" in services the sine qua non is freeze spending at some baseline that has sufficiently broad support (i.e., isn't simply warped by the priorities of only one side) and then make it easy to cut but very difficult to expend additional spending. Then do likewise with a floor taxation rate, making it easy to raise but very difficult to reduce. That prevents the opportunists from buying votes by promising irresponsible spending increases and/or tax cuts. The ratchet effect will then be working to bring the budget into balance, rather than the exact opposite which happens now.

None of this happens as long as bribery continues to be legal; without radical campaign finance reform that all but bans PAC, corporate and union contributions and "independent" political campaigning, it's all just rearranging lineup cards in the Mets' dugout.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

We already got titanic change in 2008. Please be more specific.

Yah, the question now is whether we can stop the flooding before too many compartments have been filled. It's hard to be optimistic.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Yah, the question now is whether we can stop the flooding before too many compartments have been filled. It's hard to be optimistic.

Ship's been on the ocean floor since 2005. We're trying to raise it and the guys who scuttled it sit around whining it's wet.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

This is tricky to implement -- a dollar is a dollar. Since people have extreme emotional resistance to an entitlement "cut" the sine qua non is freeze spending at some baseline that has sufficiently broad support and make it very difficult to raise, and do likewise with taxation, making it very difficult to reduce. That prevents the opportunists on each side from buying votes by promising irresponsible spending increases or tax cuts.

Here's my take: Entitlement programs were developed as a safety net and not as a lifestyle. It should be the primary focus of the heads of these government programs to help people to be self-sufficient rather than working to enroll more and more people in their programs; in this respect, government should be working more like a business in trying to pare down costs over time. There's no excuse for the percentage of our population going into retirement with both hands out, depending on Social Security and Medicare to sustain them until their dirt nap. And yet it seems that these programs continue to proactively work at enrolling more people rather than focusing on what should be the goal of a social welfare program: a temporary hand up rather than a permanent handout. With regards to Social Security and Medicare, there needs to be a focused effort to get the next generation to recognize the costs of retirement and to address those concerns themselves rather than expecting society to absorb their retirement costs--which goes back to my major problem with far too many Americans: lack of personal accountability and the willingness to play the "victim".

On the flip side of the coin is the gorilla in the room: The federal deficit. To deal with this problem, I'd propose something similar to the cost of living increases in SSI/SSDI--only this annual adjustment would be applied to proportional tax increases across the board--everyone is taxed something, even if it is a marginal amount. This tax would be capped at several percent and these funds would be applied directly to the federal deficit; of course, seniors will hate it as will those on the public dole. What needs to be pointed out to government dependents is that they'll get absolutely nothing if we maintain the status quo. Over a half trillion dollars is paid out each year; a small tax of 3-5% would not be too much to ask of those who are now reaping FAR more than they ever sowed. During a period of cost of living decreases, the tax rates would be lowered.

Just my two cents on potential fixes to the problem.

 

[Plante26]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Ship's been on the ocean floor since 2005. We're trying to raise it and the guys who scuttled it sit around whining it's wet.

Pumping more water in to a ship that's sunk is hardly going to raise the ship. And the guys "trying" [coughcough] to raise it keep calling for more water.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Pumping more water in to a ship that's sunk is hardly going to raise the ship. And the guys "trying" [coughcough] to raise it keep calling for more water.

Just between us, I think they're mostly pumping hot air. Which actually might work if they pump it into something as inflatable as Obama.