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Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Kepler said:
Things like Obama's defense of the mosque make me question whether anybody on his staff knows the first thing about politics. It's just handing a big, dripping slice of red meat to the opposition -- why get into it at all? :confused:

It's laudable to send messages to the Islamic world that we're not all indiscriminate Musliphobes, but it's not laudable to hand the fall elections to the indiscriminate Musliphobes.
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I'm not as concerned with him getting into the subject, he is the leader of the country and this issue calls for leadership. I'm more concerned that his first statement was exactly what you said...he walked right into that one. It was a time for a balanced statement and he didn't provide one. Similar to his comments after the cop/professor incident...it isn't that he is saying something nobody agrees with but somebody ought to check him before he opines on highly sensitive issues like race and religious tolerance of muslims.

I understand if he gets caught off-guard by a question about yesterday's golf ruling but shouldn't they spend 2 minutes (morning, noon and night) on issues that are getting the attention of the public and press just to make sure they have the right words?

I'm sure W had them pinned to his sleeve (or written on the insides of his eyeballs) and it didn't really help, but this guy seems smart enough to remember what he just agreed to say earlier in the day.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

pirate said:
I'm not as concerned with him getting into the subject, he is the leader of the country and this issue calls for leadership. I'm more concerned that his first statement was exactly what you said...he walked right into that one. It was a time for a balanced statement and he didn't provide one. Similar to his comments after the cop/professor incident...it isn't that he is saying something nobody agrees with but somebody ought to check him before he opines on highly sensitive issues like race and religious tolerance of muslims.
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They had a blurb about this on one of the morning shows today. Apparently, Obama felt it would be unwise to wholly ignore the issue since he was hosting a Ramadan dinner. I didn't really mind his original statement. He probably would have had a better result with it if he had stopped after saying Muslims have the right to practice their religion and left the mosque out of it. His tap-dancing afterward about the mosque was pretty sad. It's amazing how tone-deaf even "smart" politicos can be at times.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

I'm glad to see this issue brought into light. Personally, I always thought the Fresh Start Community Church in downtown Oklahoma City was an abomination. You know who goes to churches, right? Christians. Take your bomb factories back to Europe.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

pirate said:
I'm not as concerned with him getting into the subject, he is the leader of the country and this issue calls for leadership.
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Unfortunately, there's a difference between being morally (and legally) right and politically smart. This is one of those things like flag burning where (1) nobody is going to change his mind no matter how eloquently you make an intellectual argument and (2) the Emotional Insanity Quotient is just too high to get near it.

Any posturing by the usual suspects is going to go down in flames in the courts, so don't expose yourself needlessly. Charging into the middle of a minefield isn't courage and doesn't do anybody but your opponents any good.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

MaizeRage said:
I'm glad to see this issue brought into light. Personally, I always thought the Fresh Start Community Church in downtown Oklahoma City was an abomination. You know who goes to churches, right? Christians. Take your bomb factories back to Europe.
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Fail.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Haaretz is reporting that the mosque planners are going to find a different spot.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/interna...ans-for-ground-zero-community-center-1.308426

After weeks of heated debate over plans for an Islamic community center near Ground Zero - the site of the 9/11 attacks on New York - it seems Muslim leaders will soon back down, agreeing to move to a new site.

Sources in New York said on Monday that Muslim religious and business leaders will announce plans to abandon the project in the next few days.

New York Governor David Patterson [sic] said last weekend that Muslim leaders had rejected outright his proposal to swap the site in for another in Manhattan.

But several people familiar with the debate among New York's Islamic activists now claim that the leaders are convinced abandoning the site is preferable to unleashing a wave of bitterness towards Muslims.

They also hope the move will be seen as a show of sensitivity to families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks, and to the American public generally.

Another factor in the apparent climbdown is a lack of funds to pay for construction of the center, estimated to cost a hundred million dollars. Backers hope moving it will lead to a wave of support, accompanied by cash donations.
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If they decide to build elsewhere, I hope they will be very successful. They deserve applause for doing the right thing here.

EDIT: Cordoba House issuing denials. Weak.
 
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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

From a priest blogger

I have been following the debate over the building of a mosque at Ground Zero in Manhattan.

I have a counter proposal.

Let us build a chapel dedicated to Sts. Nunilo and Alodia next to the mosque.

Saints Nunilo and Alodia were a pair of 9th c. virgin martyrs in Huesca, Spain. They were born to a Muslim father and Christian mother. However, they chose their mother’s Christianity.

And so during the Emirate of Abd ar-Rahman II it came to pass that in these little girls were first put in a brothel and then were executed as apostates according to Sharia law.

Their feast day is 22 October.

I think their relics are in the Cathedral of Pamplona, having been translated a couple times.
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Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Rover said:
What I'm struck by in all of this conversation is how conservatives like to use 9-11 still to advocate unconstitutional acts.

1) Blaming all Muslims for 9-11 is reactionary and stupid. You could probably find problems with any name they use for the place as now righties are reaching back to some 16th century conquest as one reason for opposition.:rolleyes: We don't blame all Germans for Hitler, nor all Japenese for Pearl Harbor. When do we stop holding people responsible for a criminal act they had nothing to do with?

2) Creating a mosque free buffer zone is un-American. You cannot favor, nor discriminate, one religion over another. Plain and simple Constitutional truth. How far away should this mosque free buffer zone be? 5 blocks? People still wouldn't be complaining about that? A mile - within walking distance of the site? People would still complain about that. Where does it end? Its not like this thing is on the site, or even facing the site.

3) Can you protest this? Sure. But you know what? Listening to right wing talk radio does not equal protest. Have you written any letters? Picked up a sign and picketed the site? Anything at all out of any of you righties except for whining on a message board dedicated to college hockey? Its amazing how you people thing listening to the Limbaugh show takes the place of actually doing something, much like you think reflexively voting Republican gets you out of having to go to church every Sunday. :rolleyes:

Lastly, yes I consider it a mosque and not a monument. If Atta and his fellow jerkoffs are mentioned anywhere, that's a different story. But I need proof of that, as well as proof that this is actually scheduled to break ground on 9-11.
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I'm thinking you're intentionally driving this topic in a direction I've heard no-one here on this board, nor on tv or radio go.

1. No-one is blaming all muslims for 9-11. NO-ONE. and anyone who would do that is just bat****. Got it?
1A. so now that we've cleared that air, let's clear the air about the name Cordoba, the significance of it, and why that's meaningful to us as Americans.

First off Cordoba, or Qurtuba as it was called, was the capital of the Islamic Caliphate. It was first captured around 716-720 or so and was held until the middle of the 10th century where it changed hands several times. Now this name matters because it's Bin Laden and Zawahiri's dream to re-establish the Islamic Caliphate from those times. It matters because in so choosing that name the people behind this project are saying F U america. It's impossible for them to deny what the name connotes and in choosing to build on GZ, with that name and break ground on 9-11-11, they're sticking us. but you just don't get it.

This is no different than if someone shot an abortion doctor, and I put up a commercial building next door called it the name of the murderer, and dedicated the building on that date of the doctor's death.


1B. in case you haven't noticed with radical extremists of the Bin Laden ilk, they're almost enraptured by symbolism and numbers. Why would you tie yourself to that in anyway or allow that appearance in any way (cordoba, 9-11-11, GZ)? that's not a mistake nor oversight. It's intentional. And because it is I feel this project should be shelved immediately.


If the group behind this wants to build bridges then acknowledge this callous, and I'd call it nefarious really, mistake, announce to move to the nearest suitable location (preferably say 1mile away), and change the blasted name and start date. We shouldn't have to capitulate or acquiesce to this.

2. ok this is the nitty gritty. How about this? What if the mosque was being built EXACTLY where it is, and was not initially called Cordoba, nor being built by the Cordoba foundation, nor having a start date of 9-11-11?
I'm perfectly FINE with that. But clearly these guys don't intend for this to be an everyday mosque, they intend for it to be the symbol of victory over the United States. Hence all of their symbolism...and again, they chose that. not me.

3. You have to absolutely be kidding right?
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Rover said:
Missed your post, but this would make you one of the more reasonable ones.

Back to my point, which is how many righteously angered cons out here are actually doing something, aside from listening to right wing talk radio, to bring about a change in location? Or is this merely the "Outrage Of The Week" that will quickly be moved on from to a new Outrage as soon as emotions die down and the constiutionality of what the GOP is proposing starts getting questioned?
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what is the GOP proposing? I haven't listened to Limbaugh lately:rolleyes:
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

Kepler said:
"The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty." -- Jefferson
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Good timing...yesterday I saw an article discussing the repeal of the tax decrease...in it the writer said that 75% of small business owners will be impacted by the tax change and that tax decreases positively impact GDP greater than government programs.

Last week we had stats on here saying that 2% of small business owners would be impacted and social programs have a higher impact on GDP than tax reductions.

Perhaps part of the reason for gridlock is the ready availability of stats to support any argument...people read stats in an article and I guess think "well that must be true, they have percentages and everything".

Further, there is an expert, from a third party organization, willing to offer expert opinion on anything that supports the cause. So, Professor Bias from XYZ Univeristy just happened to be available to comment on whether wind is better than solar. It rarely states that the good professor is funded by the wind power industry.

Then everybody runs around thinking they 'know' the truth or the answer and anybody who disagrees is lying/crazy/partisan, or all of the above.
 
Re: Obama XIV: President VISTA with SP2

walrus said:
This is so awesome, I'll bet Rover agrees with him:D
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If I could trade winning a toss up seat in exchange for Harry Reid biting the dust, I'd make that deal six days a week and twice on Sunday. ;)
 
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