Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

[pirate]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

No, it doesn't. It goes from ~0% for the dirt poor to the full fledged 30% or whatever for the middle class (don't give me that 23% tax inclusive bull****, either. It's 30% or more from a traditional sales tax perspective). That's the sole area where the "Fair"tax is progressive.

Thereafter it drops significantly since the upper middle class, rich, and uber-rich don't spend anywhere close to their entire annual incomes. In other words, the richer you get, the more regressive it becomes.

The person making from 60-100k per year gets screwed. The person making 500k+ makes out like a bandit. Sorry, but it'd be far better, in my opinion, to simply simplify the current income tax. Eliminate most if not all loopholes, exemptions, and deductions.

We've got to figure out how to get our education dept to produce a better product, how to make unemployed people employed and how to develop better jobs in this country to raise the average salary... we're starting to look like a team that says "we can't score, so Jordan you better start scoring 50-60 points every night or we are going to lose". In ten years we'll be telling him to score 70-80 a night. Not a good model.



edit: Hammer, I do hope you get your pony

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

And I'm saying, there's a 100% certainty that those things won't happen, making this entire discussion moot.

So why are you bothering to engage in it, then, if it's moot? You contradict yourself.

Fine. You wait for Congress to pass something this large without carving up special interests and exemptions for their own gain. I'll sit here and wait for the tooth fairy to bring me a pony for Christmas. We'll see which one gets our wish first. We're both going to be waiting for a while.

Since there are so many people with an attitude like yours, you're absolutely right. What happened to hope and change, eh? Obama was just farting rainbows?

 

[Hammer]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Apparently so. You say that like I've spent many threads supporting Obama. A quick search will find that is not the case.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

So why are you bothering to engage in it, then, if it's moot? You contradict yourself.

Because as I said, even in some theoretical case where there's a revolution and overthrow of the government, and we get to make all the laws anew, the Fairtax is still a flawed system.

And I am an economics geek, so any chance to poke holes in random *** theories, systems, and models is fun for me.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Apparently so. You say that like I've spent many threads supporting Obama. A quick search will find that is not the case.

I didn't say you were. I said there was a politician who came to office planning to change the status quo. I was inquiring as to whether you believed that was possible. I know "deep down" what you think about that.

Even though he was clearly full of crap, and politicians on both sides of the aisle are equally full of crap, I choose to believe that real change is possible, change for the better. I won't stop trying to get it, just because two worrywarts on a message board tell me it's not possible.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

And I am an economics geek, so any chance to poke holes in random *** theories is fun for me.

Well, I'm still waiting for leaks to appear. Other than whining about a lack of redistribution and an unsourced claim that it won't sufficiently fund the government, I've yet to see anything substantive.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

I didn't say you were. I said there was a politician who came to office planning to change the status quo. I was inquiring as to whether you believed that was possible. I know "deep down" what you think about that.

Even though he was clearly full of crap, and politicians on both sides of the aisle are equally full of crap, I choose to believe that real change is possible, change for the better. I won't stop trying to get it, just because two worrywarts on a message board tell me it's not possible.

You do now.

So both sides of the aisle are full of crap, but you think we're going to see change from the crap?

We can ask for all we want, but it's going to start with better leaders elected to Congress instead of returning the same old "crap" that you alluded to in your second paragraph. How that gets done is much easier said than done.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

You do now.

So both sides of the aisle are full of crap, but you think we're going to see change from the crap?

We can ask for all we want, but it's going to start with better leaders elected to Congress instead of returning the same old "crap" that you alluded to in your second paragraph. How that gets done is much easier said than done.

That's the point. I'm actively involved in trying to change out the crap for useful public servants. On both sides.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Well, I'm still waiting for leaks to appear. Other than whining about a lack of redistribution, I've yet to see anything substantive.

Let's recap:
Middle class gets screwed once again.
dis-incentivizing consumer spending in a consumer-driven economy = likely long-term depression
Hiding the true tax rate through misnomers to make it appear lower than it really is (that 23% "tax inclusive" figure).
Regardless of how you define the proposed tax rate, it's not nearly high enough to fund the government as it stands. Thus the real rate will be higher.

I could see it greatly benefitting the Canadian and Mexican economies, though. Being able to take untaxed income across the border to buy goods without the national sales tax would stretch the dollar greatly. Suddenly drug runners start importing illegal (untaxed) levis and t.p. instead? In soviet russia, t.p. wipes you?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Let's recap:
Middle class gets screwed once again.

Ambiguous and classist. The middle class is also the largest segment of the population.

dis-incentivizing consumer spending in a consumer-driven economy = likely long-term depression

Not proven.

Hiding the true tax rate through misnomers to make it appear lower than it really is (that 23% "tax inclusive" figure).

Misleading. Perhaps income tax rates should be listed "tax exclusive" then.

Regardless of how you define the proposed tax rate, it's not nearly high enough to fund the government as it stands. Thus the real rate will be higher.

Not proven.

Please, continue.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Ambiguous and classist. The middle class is also the largest segment of the population.

Classest my ***; It's the truth. The segment of the population that will pay the most taxes percentage-wise are those who make enough to not get everything back from the prebate, but not enough to where they actually have enough to save a significent portion of their income. Guess which segment that is?

The more money you earn, the less you'll pay in taxes since you simply won't have to spend as much. I guess it's "fair" that the effective tax rate goes down as income goes up, though. Certainly sounds "Fair" to me.

Not proven.

Misleading. Perhaps income tax rates should be listed "tax exclusive" then.

Not proven.

Please, continue.

You're the one advocating the change, you need to eliminate my doubts and prove your system won't cause those things, not the other way around. What evidence we do have shows that sales taxes have stronger dis-incentives associated with them than income taxes.

Also your definition is the misleading one since people hear "23% sales tax" and will assume it's calculated like all present sales taxes, which is added on after the fact. Nice try, though.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

You're the one advocating the change, you need to eliminate my doubts and prove your system won't cause those things, not the other way around.

Hard numbers haven't eliminated your doubts. I won't waste my time trying to hold your hand and explain it to you.

Also your definition is the misleading one since people hear "23% sales tax" and will assume it's calculated like all present sales taxes, which is added on after the fact. Nice try, though.

This is so childish.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Classest my ***; It's the truth. The segment of the population that will pay the most taxes percentage-wise are those who make enough to not get everything back from the prebate, but not enough to where they actually have enough to save a significent portion of their income. Guess which segment that is?

Hey, you just explained classism pretty well there. Better than I could.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Hard numbers.

I do not think that means what you think it means.

Seeing as there are no real world examples of the FairTax, I'm not sure there are such things as "hard numbers" available.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

I do not think that means what you think it means.

Seeing as there are no real world examples of the FairTax, I'm not sure there are such things as "hard numbers" available.

Childish. Goodbye.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Hey, you just explained classism pretty well there. Better than I could.

Does that mean you disagree with my assessment, or that you're ok with that outcome?

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Regardless of how you define the proposed tax rate, it's not nearly high enough to fund the government as it stands. Thus the real rate will be higher.

Eh?

At the very highest level, the personal savings rate in the US is effectively zero, meaning that personal income = personal spending. Therefore, whether you take in 20% of total income or 20% of total spending, you'd have the same total amount of revenue.

Of course, below the surface, that total revenue would probably be coming from the various segments of the population in slightly different proportions than the income tax does today, and whether you support that different proportioning is a value judgement based on your concept of "fairness."

But it's patently ridiculous to say that in our consumer-driven economy there isn't enough spending to support the government with a sales tax. If there's one thing we have an excess of, it's consumer spending!

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

But it's patently ridiculous to say that in our consumer-driven economy there isn't enough spending to support the government with a sales tax. If there's one thing we have an excess of, it's consumer spending!

Which will shrink if we switch to a national sales tax.

The bigger issue is, instead, that while the overall savings rate is 0%, that's not uniform across income brackets. Additionally, we're running a pretty hefty deficit right now, as I'm sure youv'e noticed. Tax rates are going to go up even if we stay with the income tax.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Which will shrink if we switch to a national sales tax.

Probably. But I think in general, rich people would still rather cruise around in yachts than simply sleep at home on piles of money, so there will still be spending. And you know what? Gradually reduced consumer spending (a.k.a increased personal savings) which would occur as people adjust to the new taxation methods will actually be a GOOD thing for the long-term health of the country, not a bad thing.

The bigger issue is, instead, that while the overall savings rate is 0%, that's not uniform across income brackets.

Exactly - which is what I pointed out when I said that the proportions under the surface would be different.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Personal savings for all but the super rich was zero even when the economy was good. It's a much larger problem fueled by different moral attitudes towards debt, increased availability of credit, and growing wealth inequality.

Ever since Reagan we have put a greater and greater percentage burden on the middle class while not actually increasing the pain for the middle class -- hence, huge deficits. The middle class responded, in true Boomer Irresponsibility Fashion, by going into denial over the eventual debt crisis, spending more and more freely to keep up their lifestyle. That was the only way to keep government spending high, taxes on the highest incomes low, and middle class amenities growing.

Now that Judgment Day is upon us, there are two groups who should get soaked -- they both deserve it. The rich for their 30 year tax holiday and the middle class for their McMansion-Hummer-14-credit-cards shopping spree. The poor are the only ones who won't get soaked, by definition, but I don't think any of us wants to change places with them.

So, everybody loses -- that's what happens in bad times. The big sin of the last 30 years is we had an extraordinary opportunity to put our economic house in order, educate our kids, and take care of those left behind, but we ****ed it away. Reagan, Clinton and Bush II all share the guilt for that, as well as the borrow and spend Congresses (and hence the voters) -- it was their stupid policies. Bush I I'll give a break to because he actually tried to reverse some of the rot of Reaganomics, but he got burned by his own party for his troubles. Obama is still incomplete because his landscape is so different -- you can't criticize fire fighters for wasting water. But if and when the immediate crisis passes I'm not all that optimistic his policies will be able to reverse 30 years of terrible mismanagement, even if he has the inclination, which is far from clear.