Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

How many would actually pay federal income tax? Since half the country pay any, I'm going to say not many.

Well I meant tax them at 90% with no exemptions -- they'll still be better off than in Mexico -- but I suppose I could be convinced to just enslave them. If corporations are people, people can be things. (Again. Or 3/5ths people, or something.)

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

That wouldn't work unless you're shifting the savings from these taxes into the general funds. Bush really did a number by including ss in the budget. It was making it look better till ss went red, now it's making it look a bit worse.

The current estimate is that medicare trust will run out earlier than expected in 2017 and ss trust in 2037. so lets say we eliminate these programs or cut the benefits... we still havne't solved the yearly budget deficit from other gov programs nor the $12trillion national debt and the interest payment.

If you noticed we've extended when the trust runs out several times by increasing the fica/medi tax or by increasing eligibility requirements etc..

Repeat after me: There's no such thing as a SS or medicare trust.

It's always been a pay-as-you-go, today's workers fund today's retirees scheme.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Your effective tax rate would increase as your income and spending go up.

No, it doesn't. It goes from ~0% for the dirt poor to the full fledged 30% or whatever for the middle class (don't give me that 23% tax inclusive bull****, either. It's 30% or more from a traditional sales tax perspective). That's the sole area where the "Fair"tax is progressive.

Thereafter it drops significantly since the upper middle class, rich, and uber-rich don't spend anywhere close to their entire annual incomes. In other words, the richer you get, the more regressive it becomes.

The person making from 60-100k per year gets screwed. The person making 500k+ makes out like a bandit. Sorry, but it'd be far better, in my opinion, to simply simplify the current income tax. Eliminate most if not all loopholes, exemptions, and deductions.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

You've all seen this, but it's still pretty cool. Not sure I remember that last part being among the verified "facts".

Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846.
John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946.

Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860.
John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960.

Both were particularly concerned with civil rights.
Both wives lost children while living in the White House.

Both Presidents were shot on a Friday.
Both Presidents were shot in the head.

Lincoln's secretary was named Kennedy.
Kennedy's Secretary was named Lincoln .

Both were assassinated by Southerners.
Both were succeeded by Southerners named Johnson.

Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808.
Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908.

John Wilkes Booth, who assassinated Lincoln, was born in 1839.
Lee Harvey Oswald, who assassinated Kennedy, was born
in 1939.

Both assassins were known by their three names.
Both names are composed of fifteen letters.

Lincoln was shot at the theater named Ford.
Kennedy was shot in a car called Lincoln made by Ford.

Lincoln was shot in a theater and his assassin ran and hid in a warehouse.
Kennedy was shot from a warehouse and his assassin ran and hid in a theater.

Booth and Oswald were both killed before their trials.

A week before Lincoln was shot, he was in Monroe , Maryland
A week before Kennedy was shot, he was in Marilyn Monroe.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

No, it doesn't. It goes from ~0% for the dirt poor to the full fledged 30% or whatever for the middle class (don't give me that 23% tax inclusive bull****, either. It's 30% or more from a traditional sales tax perspective). That's the sole area where the "Fair"tax is progressive.

Thereafter it drops significantly since the upper middle class, rich, and uber-rich don't spend anywhere close to their entire annual incomes. In other words, the richer you get, the more regressive it becomes.

The person making from 60-100k per year gets screwed. The person making 500k+ makes out like a bandit. Sorry, but it'd be far better, in my opinion, to simply simplify the current income tax. Eliminate most if not all loopholes, exemptions, and deductions.

For a family of four, the monthly prebate to cover basic necessities would be $559 (2009 figures) as an example. If you think that's getting screwed, so be it. The prebate negates the otherwise regressive impact on the poor and lower middle class. I gather you don't like the Fair Tax, or a flat tax for that matter, because it doesn't tax the rich enough to suit you. But if you think the current income tax is going to be simplified in any meaningful way, I think you've got a long wait. The effective tax rate under the Fair Tax is progressive to a degree, depending upon you're level of spending. Personally I think either the Fair Tax or a flat tax is much preferable to what we have now.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

But if you think the current income tax is going to be simplified in any meaningful way, I think you've got a long wait. The effective tax rate under the Fair Tax is progressive to a degree, depending upon you're level of spending.

And if you think the "Fair"tax, or any other combination of sales taxes/VATs is going to replace the income tax rather than be added to it, I've got a bridge to sell you dirt cheap.

Again, the "Fair"tax is anything but progressive. The prebates may eliminate the hit to the poorest of the poor, but you can't get around the fact that the average middle class family will be paying more as a percentage of income than the uber-rich. That is regressive, not progressive.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

And if you think the "Fair"tax, or any other combination of sales taxes/VATs is going to replace the income tax rather than be added to it, I've got a bridge to sell you dirt cheap.

Again, you belie how little you know about the FairTax.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Again, you belie how little you know about the FairTax.

No..I know it's supposed to replace the income tax, and eliminate the IRS, and be a happy little utopia of revenue collection using businesses as the tax collectors.

Real world, there's no way in hell the feds give up the income tax. I think just in Nebraska, there's about 10-20 different "temporary" taxes that somehow never found their way off the books, even after the projects they were implemented for were fully paid off.

But whatever. You think the fairtax is actually fair and would work as described even after the feds get to touch it. I don't think there's a chance in hell any of that works as intended.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

No..I know it's supposed to replace the income tax, and eliminate the IRS, and be a happy little utopia of revenue collection using businesses as the tax collectors.

Real world, there's no way in hell the feds give up the income tax. I think just in Nebraska, there's about 10-20 different "temporary" taxes that somehow never found their way off the books, even after the projects they were implemented for were fully paid off.

Then the FairTax never goes into effect in the first place, so what are you so worried about? Did you read the bill, or are you just bloviating here? It's not ObamaCare long, so it's actually something you can get through in a couple of hours.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Then the FairTax never goes into effect in the first place, so what are you so worried about? Did you read the bill, or are you just bloviating here? It's not ObamaCare long, so it's actually something you can get through in a couple of hours.

I've read the theories on it multiple times from multiple websites. I've heard it described on here dozens of times. I've not read the bill itself, but I know enough to know it'll never work in the real world.

If you're admitting it'll never go into effect, then why bother bringing it up in the first place?

Should we next argue the merits (or lack thereof) of the gold standard?

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

I've read the theories on it multiple times from multiple websites. I've heard it described on here dozens of times. I've not read the bill itself, but I know enough to know it'll never work in the real world.

If you're admitting it'll never go into effect, then why bother bringing it up in the first place?

You still aren't getting it. IF the other taxes are not repealed simultaneously, the FairTax will not be implemented. IT'S PART OF THE BILL TO SUNSET OTHER TAXES. If other taxes are not being sunsetted, it's because the FairTax has not been passed and signed into law. Do you get it yet?

Should we next argue the merits (or lack thereof) of the gold standard?

Yes, that's it, compare the FairTax to the gold standard. Because I'm clearly all for the gold standard, aren't I? Strawmen for the win! Can't make a coherent argument? Set it up against something that DEFINITELY won't work and try and draw them together!

I know you're better than that.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Any version of a new tax to replace what we have will get worked around 7 ways 'til Sunday before it gets through Congress. That's the only way you're going to get the majority of 535 legislators to agree on anything. It's going to be so far removed from the theory in the first place that we won't recognize it.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Any version of a new tax to replace what we have will get worked around 7 ways 'til Sunday before it gets through Congress. That's the only way you're going to get the majority of 535 legislators to agree on anything. It's going to be so far removed from the theory in the first place that we won't recognize it.

Well, if that happens, I'll stop supporting it. Until it does, it's got my backing.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Well, when that happens, I'll stop supporting it. Until it does, it's got my backing.

Fixed for accuracy.

Name something that Congress passes that gets through untouched. It's like (paraphrasing) an old saying: there's two things you don't want to see get made: sausage and laws.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Name something that Congress passes that gets through untouched.

A raise.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Fixed for accuracy.

Such a pessimist. No wonder our country is ****ed.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

A raise.

Touche.

Such a pessimist. No wonder our country is ****ed.

And realisitic. But deep down you also know that statement is correct.

 

[Red Cloud]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Touche.

And realisitic. But deep down you also know that statement is correct.

Tell me what else I "know, deep down," Carnac.

So glad I have you around to speak for me.

 

[unofan]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

You still aren't getting it. IF the other taxes are not repealed simultaneously, the FairTax will not be implemented. IT'S PART OF THE BILL TO SUNSET OTHER TAXES. If other taxes are not being sunsetted, it's because the FairTax has not been passed and signed into law. Do you get it yet?

And I'm saying, there's a 100% certainty that those things won't happen, making this entire discussion moot.

But, moving beyond that, the entire theory behind the tax itself is inherently flawed, thus I cannot support it even in an isolated scenario where we're given a tabula rasa from which to finance a government.

 

[Hammer]

Re: Obama XII: The shine is off the glass slipper

Tell me what else I "know, deep down," Carnac.

So glad I have you around to speak for me.

Fine. You wait for Congress to pass something this large without carving up special interests and exemptions for their own gain. I'll sit here and wait for the tooth fairy to bring me a pony for Christmas. We'll see which one gets our wish first. We're both going to be waiting for a while.