Obama V: For Vendetta

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

the government can simply
a) defend our personal freedom or
b) take it away

There is also:

c) expand the scope of freedom beyond that allowed by "nature red in tooth and claw"

The government says I can't serve only white people in my own restaurant. That's reducing the scope of my personal freedom. There are other restrictions on my personal freedom that result (supposedly) in "aggregate" freedom increasing. What constitutes what I have a "right to" is constantly negotiated -- each generation makes its own decisions about it, and tastes change.

As government increases, the bureaucratic class gains power to dominate everybody else. As government decreases, the strong (in our society, the rich) gain power to dominate the weak. The vast number of us who don't want to be dominated by either of those ambitious "ruling classes" have to find the balance, while constantly being subjected to the PR campaigns of one group or the other.

 

[dropthatpuck]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Fascism is considered a disease of the right, as Communism is a disease of the left. In the US the worst aspects of Fascism (militarism, nationalism, xenophobia, religious extremism) have been historically associated with the right; during the height of European fascism, it considered Communism to be its diametric opposite.

The Progressive/Populist axis tends to cut perpendicularly across the left/right spectrum, so partisans on either side have a lot of room to try to distance themselves from the negative consequences of their ideologies.

You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who despised communism more than Jack and Bobby Kennedy. Historically, its only a recent shift of the left in that regard.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Seriously, on the spectrum of the world's democratic governments, Obama isn't even center-left. On the US spectrum, he'd be to the right of Nixon and Eisenhower among others.

how do you figure?

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Fascism is considered a disease of the right, as Communism is a disease of the left. In the US the worst aspects of Fascism (militarism, nationalism, xenophobia, religious extremism) have been historically associated with the right; during the height of European fascism, it considered Communism to be its diametric opposite.

That may be the conventional wisdom, but both fascism and modern liberalism descended from progressivism. One of the principal tenets of fascism is government control of business and labor. I don't exactly think that is tenet of the right. It's much more closely a tenet of the left.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

how do you figure?

Both favored far more economically progressive policies. Nixon went so far as to suggest a "national minimum wage."

People always tend to project the partisan issues of their today back as if they always existed, but the parties slide back and forth on public tastes, and public tastes have become far more conservative economically and liberal socially in the last 50 years.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

That may be the conventional wisdom, but both fascism and modern liberalism descended from progressivism. One of the principal tenets of fascism is government control of business and labor. I don't exactly think that is tenet of the right. It's much more closely a tenet of the left.

National control of industry and labor way predates progressivism -- it goes all the way back to the foundation of the nation-state in the post-Westphalia era. Centralization of power in the government isn't left or right, all governments do it, the guise merely changes. When it's the left it's "social justice," when it's the right it's "law and order."

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

National control of industry and labor way predates progressivism -- it goes all the way back to the foundation of the nation-state in the post-Westphalia era. Centralization of power in the government isn't left or right, all governments do it, the guise merely changes. When it's the left it's "social justice," when it's the right it's "law and order."

Government control of industry and labor nevertheless is far more a tenet of the left than the right.

 

[Handyman]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Government control of industry and labor nevertheless is far more a tenet of the left than the right.

True but that is only one part of Facism as Kepler said and the rest are very much tenants of the right.

It doesn't matter Obama isnt a Socialist (ask any socialist) and the GOP arent Facists that is just rhetoric to scare the middle. And it doesn't matter how many authors people quote that doesnt change a thing

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

"Fascist vs Socialist" is also like saying nukes vs spears. Communism is the same distance from the center as Fascism. Socialism has supporters in European mainstream politics, in the way that US-branded Conservatism has in a few places like Poland.

Obama is a US liberal, which translates roughly to a European centrist. "Real" (i.e. self-identified) Socialists think Obama is just another Imperialist Running Dog. He seems significantly to the left of recent GOP governments because they espoused fairly far right rhetoric. But at the end of the day -- a 4-point increase in the top marginal rate from 32 to 36, when under Eisenhower it was 90 and during Reagan it was 50? Big deal.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

Government control of industry and labor nevertheless is far more a tenet of the left than the right.

Fascists pit the strong against the weak for the benefit of the strong. I've never known a liberal that would support that.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

There is also:

c) expand the scope of freedom beyond that allowed by "nature red in tooth and claw"

The government says I can't serve only white people in my own restaurant. That's reducing the scope of my personal freedom. There are other restrictions on my personal freedom that result (supposedly) in "aggregate" freedom increasing. What constitutes what I have a "right to" is constantly negotiated -- each generation makes its own decisions about it, and tastes change.

yeah, the downside of rhetoric is when a word like "freedom" can be so blasphemed as to justify such a thing as your hypothetical resauranteur's racism. (Like saying that killing children will preserve my personal "right to choose". ) But it can, is and will be done to the advantage of the strong, as you said.
The best thing is to lift weights for a month, then go back to that same beach. Or else eat lots of ketchup, which has natural mellowing agents. But don't, don't just hide your stuff in some backyard compound. Please.

 

[Bill]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

True but that is only one part of Facism as Kepler said and the rest are very much tenants of the right.

No, the rest are not very much tenets of the right. If you read about the basic tenets of fascism, you'll find that you can associate some of them to the left and some to the far right. The conventional wisdom might be that fascism is associated with the far right, but fascism shares a lot with the left. And in my opinion, government control of industry and labor is a huge strike against both fascism and socialism and even modern liberalism (even though that is more a goal of modern liberalism rather than an achieved result).

 

[Kepler]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

The best thing is to lift weights for a month, then go back to that same beach. Or else eat lots of ketchup, which has natural mellowing agents.

This is the best/weirdest post of the day. I don't have positive rep to spread though.

 

[geezer]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

This is the best/weirdest post of the day.

That was my five o'clock, FRIIIIDAAAAY post. Odds are it's the latter.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

No, the rest are not very much tenets of the right. If you read about the basic tenets of fascism, you'll find that you can associate some of them to the left and some to the far right. The conventional wisdom might be that fascism is associated with the far right, but fascism shares a lot with the left. And in my opinion, government control of industry and labor is a huge strike against both fascism and socialism and even modern liberalism (even though that is more a goal of modern liberalism rather than an achieved result).

Oh, this is too funny. Fascism has elements of the left and the far right.....Too Freakin' Hilarious.

 

[huskyfan]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

how do you figure?

Both favored far more economically progressive policies. Nixon went so far as to suggest a "national minimum wage."

that's the answer?

 

[gregg729]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

If you think this government is far left, your spectrum must run from Barry Goldwater to the John Birch Society.

Seriously, on the spectrum of the world's democratic governments, Obama isn't even center-left. On the US spectrum, he'd be to the right of Nixon and Eisenhower among others.

Political fashions, like hemlines, change. We're emerging from a time when "the left was in the center and the right was in the lunatic asylum." In 30 years it will, of course, be exactly the opposite. That's how this country rolls.

Anyway, like I said below, I'm against bipartisanship. Obama should push through his policies; the GOP should fight like the dickens to stop him. That's the only way we voters get a real choice. I will be happy to cancel your national vote in 2012.

I'm not speaking in terms of world's democratic governments, I'm speaking in terms of how the Founding Fathers envisioned America and set it up to run via the Constitution.

I'd like to know what you're smoking to think that Ike and Nixon were further left than Obama. Seriously, my drink almost came out my nose, I laughed so hard. Saying a national minimum wage is a policy to the left of HR 3200 is more ridiculous than saying a band aid is more extreme than a tourniquet.

And your vote only cancels out mine if you live in the same state as me, due to the albatross of a system called the electoral college. Which is obsolete and should be done away with, as the 2000 elections proved out....

I'd have to disagree with Lewis on that one. Fascism is more closely related to Socialism than to Capitalism.

Fascism is considered a disease of the right, as Communism is a disease of the left.

You're both kinda right. All three are different shades of totalitarianism.

Fascism is the label for the "disease of the right," while communism is the label for the "disease of the left." (I like that term Kepler!) Fascism is marked by stirring up emotions of extreme racial/nationalist bigotry to get the country's citizens to surrender their freedom to the state for the good of the "Fatherland" or racial purity or something like that. Communism is marked by suffocating free thinking, individuality, and emotion to get the country's citizens to surrender their freedom to the state for the good of some soulless "collective." Labels aside, they're exactly the same in regards to how they perceive the state/individual relationship to be. (Those are my own words, and I'm no academic, but I don't believe there's any major concept error there.)

Socialism is the intermediate step employed both fascists and communists to create the necessary environment to begin dismantling capitalism. Once capitalism has been dismantled and all the citizens' economic livelihood is dependent on the government, then at that point it is fairly easy to phase out democracy and install a totalitarian government.

The only way to install a lasting totalitarian government is to convince the people that they need to live in shackles.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

I'd like to know what you're smoking to think that Ike and Nixon were further left than Obama..

-nixon went to china.
-nixon oversaw the start of the epa.
-nixon instituted wage and price controls. (ironically enough, it was carter who had to remove the nixon price controls on oil )
-nixon wanted to get into arms control deals with the red soviets.
-nixon put in quotas for affirmative action.
-nixon put harry blackmun in the SCOTUS .

 

[joecct]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

....The only way to install a lasting totalitarian government is to convince the people that they need to live in shackles.

But aren't most of the people sheep who don't really care who is in charge as long as they get their share of the rice bowl?? If the dictator has a decent standard of living for his people, he'll be set for life. After he/she dies, the power vacuum is what leads to trouble.

Cynical, I know, but reality seems to suggest it.

Speaking of sheep -- S.773

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10320096-38.html?tag=newsLeadStoriesArea.1

I hope not, but nothing in this Administration suprises me. What frightens me is they have only been in charge for 8 months.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Obama V: For Vendetta

The right always sells lowering govt spending. But once in power, the numbers show the right spends every bit as much as the left. They just spend it on stuff that holds little benefit for its citizens like tanks.

But where the real difference comes in is the right's need to control society...which is why the right is really about big govt. Indeed, the spirit of the constitution was to protect US citizens from governmental abuses of power. Meanwhile, the right consistently attempts to control free speech and freedom of expression. From media controls to wiretapping its citizens to limiting the choices of its citizens to make choices for themselves. It even tried to use the US constitution, which the founding fathers created to guarentee its citizens rights, to limit them by pushing an amendment to ban gay marriages. Indeed, the attempts to use the US constitution against its original design are very similar to Christian conservatives use of Christianity to enforce the opposite of the compassion, peace and acceptance of what Christ actually stood for.