Minnesota Cup

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Minnesota Cup

That is a legitimate concern. If any one of the five schools gets greedy and wants things done so that it benefits them more than the others, it will be a problem. It will be destined to fail. I think what this situation has going for it is that it's a "tournament". Everyone loves to compete in tournaments, however, the last event they had at the X had nothing on the line. It was nothing more than a doubleheader of games in the same arena. I hope that they find a way to make it work. I think it could be a windfall for everyone involved.

This hasn't been tossed around yet, but could potentially be an option. I know it's pie in the sky and will never happen, but why not make it an 8-team tourney with the five MN teams being a constant. In that case, everyone is guaranteed 3 games. It creates a fun atmosphere. It gives tournament bragging rights. It allows fans to plan on being there every year. Split the revenues evenly and everyone is happy (although I don't know the way financial aspect of visiting teams works). That would be a fun weekend for everyone.

That's 3 games for some teams and one for others. How you going to work that out? There has to be a known quantity of games for everyone involved. All teams have a set schedule for the regular season. (4) teams, (2) games each is what works.

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: Minnesota Cup

That is a legitimate concern. If any one of the five schools gets greedy and wants things done so that it benefits them more than the others, it will be a problem. It will be destined to fail. I think what this situation has going for it is that it's a "tournament". Everyone loves to compete in tournaments, however, the last event they had at the X had nothing on the line. It was nothing more than a doubleheader of games in the same arena. I hope that they find a way to make it work. I think it could be a windfall for everyone involved.

This hasn't been tossed around yet, but could potentially be an option. I know it's pie in the sky and will never happen, but why not make it an 8-team tourney with the five MN teams being a constant. In that case, everyone is guaranteed 3 games. It creates a fun atmosphere. It gives tournament bragging rights. It allows fans to plan on being there every year. Split the revenues evenly and everyone is happy (although I don't know the way financial aspect of visiting teams works). That would be a fun weekend for everyone.

If you think the revenue will be split equally, I have a bridge to sell you. Forget about making it bigger, that complicates things and takes it away from what the alleged vision is.

There's still nothing at stake. It's still two regular season games. Who hasn't made fun of the DQ Cup? tUMD and BSU used to compete for some sort of Paul Bunyan trophy thing, and if they still do, I'm unaware. tUMD has played in a number of tournaments, like the Shillelagh tournament or the Everblades tournament or whatever. Of course I wanted them to win the games. But not because I thought OMG!!!!! this tournament rules!!!! I wanted them to win because I always want them to win every game.

St. Cloud would still hang a banner if they won this farce.

 

[kdilks]

Re: Minnesota Cup

I don't know if the issue about number of games per season is as hard and fast as people are making it out to be. I can't find the official NCAA rules, but on the USCHO FAQ (http://www.uscho.com/faq/about-ncaa-hockey/#q8) it says "NCAA teams are allowed to play 34 games during the regular season, not including conference postseason tournaments and the NCAA tournament. Conferences may impose further restrictions. Some in-season tournaments, special games and games played in Alaska are exempted from the 34-game limit."

 

[Bale]

Re: Minnesota Cup

That's 3 games for some teams and one for others. How you going to work that out? There has to be a known quantity of games for everyone involved. All teams have a set schedule for the regular season. (4) teams, (2) games each is what works.

It's 3 if you have a consolation bracket. Sorry, should have specified.

As far as 4 teams, it doesn't matter. There are 5 teams. That's the reality. If the out state schools aren't happy with being left out every 3 years, expanding it is the only real option. Either that or scrapping the idea.

 

[Bale]

Re: Minnesota Cup

If you think the revenue will be split equally, I have a bridge to sell you. Forget about making it bigger, that complicates things and takes it away from what the alleged vision is.

There's still nothing at stake. It's still two regular season games. Who hasn't made fun of the DQ Cup? tUMD and BSU used to compete for some sort of Paul Bunyan trophy thing, and if they still do, I'm unaware. tUMD has played in a number of tournaments, like the Shillelagh tournament or the Everblades tournament or whatever. Of course I wanted them to win the games. But not because I thought OMG!!!!! this tournament rules!!!! I wanted them to win because I always want them to win every game.

St. Cloud would still hang a banner if they won this farce.

As for the money, it could work. You would need a lot of cooperation, admittedly. Whether it's realistic or not, I don't know.

A non-conference tournament is still a lot better than just some random non-conference game. I'm just throwing out ideas. Sounds like you won't be happy unless MN comes and plays a series in Duluth, which would realistically mean nothing either. It would just be a non-conference game with a school that's close. Nothing more, nothing less. At least the schools are attempting to be creative and work out something that works for everyone.

 

[Hammy]

Re: Minnesota Cup

No team is going to want to spend more than two games on an event like this. 4 teams. 2 games each.

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: Minnesota Cup

Why would they just give them $$$ ?

Because then they wouldn't even have to stoop down to playing amongst the teeming unwashed masses like tUMD et al. It would be like alms for the poor, to sweep the unpleasant stench of non-UMTC schools out of the way.

It is totally less common in hockey but it would not surprise me if the Gophers go this route.

I thought they did already.

I don't know if the issue about number of games per season is as hard and fast as people are making it out to be. I can't find the official NCAA rules, but on the USCHO FAQ (http://www.uscho.com/faq/about-ncaa-hockey/#q8) it says "NCAA teams are allowed to play 34 games during the regular season, not including conference postseason tournaments and the NCAA tournament. Conferences may impose further restrictions. Some in-season tournaments, special games and games played in Alaska are exempted from the 34-game limit."

The only tournament that I know of (other than the Alaska tournaments, which are covered under the Alaska exemption) where this exception is currently allowed is the Icebreaker. I mentioned this earlier, that maybe an exception would be applied for, but I don't know under what circumstances it would be granted. I don't know if all 4 games could be HHOF games.

Sounds like you won't be happy unless MN comes and plays a series in Duluth, which would realistically mean nothing either. It would just be a non-conference game with a school that's close. Nothing more, nothing less. At least the schools are attempting to be creative and work out something that works for everyone.

Sounds like you haven't read my posts.

No team is going to want to spend more than two games on an event like this. 4 teams. 2 games each.

Again, yes. And certainly not 3 games, leaving each team to schedule a single game or only play 33 games (35 in the case of teams that go to Alaska/play in the icebreaker/HHOF game.)

 

[scsutommyboy]

Re: Minnesota Cup

As for the money, it could work. You would need a lot of cooperation, admittedly. Whether it's realistic or not, I don't know.

A non-conference tournament is still a lot better than just some random non-conference game. I'm just throwing out ideas. Sounds like you won't be happy unless MN comes and plays a series in Duluth, which would realistically mean nothing either. It would just be a non-conference game with a school that's close. Nothing more, nothing less. At least the schools are attempting to be creative and work out something that works for everyone.

I could be wrong but my guess is this ends up to be the "University of Minnesota's" tourney. They agree to host the other Minnesota teams in a four team tourney at the Xcel Center and the other Minnesota teams rotate who sits out. That is not the way they are claiming this thing is suppose to be, but it is the only way it will happen. The Gophers might throw a bone out there and say the tickets won't be part of their season ticket package. That really won't matter because like I said before fans of the other four teams are not going to pay to watch these games when their team is not playing. So even if they do a season package deal like the WCHA final where you can keep your seats the other four teams fans won't get them and the place after a few years will be all Gopher fans...... I love the idea, but with five teams I don't know how it could work.

 

[kdilks]

Re: Minnesota Cup

The only tournament that I know of (other than the Alaska tournaments, which are covered under the Alaska exemption) where this exception is currently allowed is the Icebreaker. I mentioned this earlier, that maybe an exception would be applied for, but I don't know under what circumstances it would be granted. I don't know if all 4 games could be HHOF games.

I was thinking more about the issue of a tournament setup where some teams would play more games than others. Maybe they could do something along the lines of exempting the championship game so the weekend would count as 2 games towards the limit for everybody, even if you happened to play 3 games. There very well may be other reasons such a setup wouldn't work, I'm just saying the NCAA rules don't necessarily preclude such a possibility.

 

[Bale]

Re: Minnesota Cup

I could be wrong but my guess is this ends up to be the "University of Minnesota's" tourney. They agree to host the other Minnesota teams in a four team tourney at the Xcel Center and the other Minnesota teams rotate who sits out. That is not the way they are claiming this thing is suppose to be, but it is the only way it will happen. The Gophers might throw a bone out there and say the tickets won't be part of their season ticket package. That really won't matter because like I said before fans of the other four teams are not going to pay to watch these games when their team is not playing. So even if they do a season package deal like the WCHA final where you can keep your seats the other four teams fans won't get them and the place after a few years will be all Gopher fans...... I love the idea, but with five teams I don't know how it could work.

I agree with everything that you said if it turns into the U of M hosting it. If that's the case, the other schools won't agree. They are not going to go to something like this if it ends up they don't get a large chunk of the revenues. It would be pointless for the rest of us. There would be no upside at all. It would just be going for the "privilege" of playing the Gophers. That's not what anyone wants.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Minnesota Cup

This tournament hurts that angle as well. If tUMD has a chance to play both Buttmidji and Mankato in this tournament, do you think they're going to want to also schedule another series against them? Beersong brought this up on tPB but don't know if he brought it up over here.

fwiw I wasn't trying to justify whatever angle they actually have behind closed doors and I haven't dove into the logistics. I think it's clear that as much as Lucia (as well as the fans) wants to play x number of teams regularly the school itself is going to do whatever it wants.

I can't help it if you are making projections as to my mood. People really always seem to assign the worst possible tone and meaning to texts/posts/emails. Sounds like a great thesis for a graduate student in sociology or psychology or some other pseudo-science.

I am mean and/or rude often when I post on USCHO, but it's calculated.

If I'm vocal on this issue, it's because I think with the information we have, it appears tUMD's athletic director is selling out. I was concerned about how tUMD was going to be treated/perceived in the NCHC (internally, not externally) and was concerned they might be a puppet for UND and to a lesser extent DU. Fortunately the league has made some decisions that assuaged my fears a bit. That had nothing to do with the Gophers at all. I just want what's best for tUMD. I do find a lot about the Gophers and their fanbase to be obnoxious. I wouldn't miss that.

No harm and I have no issue with anything you've said here, even if I myself will miss the rivalry.

Because then they wouldn't even have to stoop down to playing amongst the teeming unwashed masses like tUMD et al. It would be like alms for the poor, to sweep the unpleasant stench of non-UMTC schools out of the way.

I am curious though where this JBSU mindset is coming from. Who exactly carries this condescending view of the other Div I schools? It's not the coaches. It's not the fans (beyond the banter of course). It's not the players. And the only entity that makes the decision is the administration and they don't care who it is as long as there is money involved.

 

[4four4]

Re: Minnesota Cup

You are right. I am sure high school hockey players don't even know SCSU and UMD have Division I programs, despite the fact that they probably play with or against players that are being recruited by said schools.

By the way, MSU, UMD and SCSU will have access to the Twin Cities television market, whether through Charter Mainstreet, Comcast or CBS College Sports. They probably still won't watch the games, but they do have access.

IMO, the Gophers will have more of an advantage than they already do over the other schools for the elite players because they will always be on local and national television while the other schools like UND, CC and DU will be at a disadvantage for the elite Twin Cities recruits. Out of sight out of mind until the Gophers don't come calling.

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: Minnesota Cup

Who exactly carries this condescending view of the other Div I schools?

Hammy.

 

[beersong]

Re: Minnesota Cup

IMO, the Gophers will have more of an advantage than they already do over the other schools for the elite players because they will always be on local and national television while the other schools like UND, CC and DU will be at a disadvantage for the elite Twin Cities recruits. Out of sight out of mind until the Gophers don't come calling.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. You're saying elite high school players in MN only know about UND, CC and DU because they play the Gophers 2-4 times a season???

 

[beersong]

Re: Minnesota Cup

I am curious though where this JBSU mindset is coming from. Who exactly carries this condescending view of the other Div I schools? It's not the coaches. It's not the fans (beyond the banter of course). It's not the players. And the only entity that makes the decision is the administration and they don't care who it is as long as there is money involved.

Actions speak louder than words (or lack of words). They'd rather schedule series versus Notre Dame, Boston College and Boston U than Bemidji or Mankato (I don't blame them). A bus ride to Bemidji, Mankato, St. Cloud or Duluth would be cheaper for them than flying out east and make more sense financially, but they want the "prestige" and "brand recognition" instead. This is exactly what the NCHC schools did as well when they broke away from tWCHA.

Heck, the Pac-12 is going to start playing football in China for cripes' sake. And the Big East conference has San Diego State. Nothing makes sense anymore.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Minnesota Cup

Hammy.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Minnesota Cup

Actions speak louder than words (or lack of words). They'd rather schedule series versus Notre Dame, Boston College and Boston U than Bemidji or Mankato (I don't blame them). A bus ride to Bemidji, Mankato, St. Cloud or Duluth would be cheaper for them than flying out east and make more sense financially, but they want the "prestige" and "brand recognition" instead.

You say you don't blame them but disparage them a sentence later? Is it all about the money or is it about prestige and brand recognition?

 

[StateOfGophers]

Re: Minnesota Cup

The only tournament that I know of (other than the Alaska tournaments, which are covered under the Alaska exemption) where this exception is currently allowed is the Icebreaker. I mentioned this earlier, that maybe an exception would be applied for, but I don't know under what circumstances it would be granted. I don't know if all 4 games could be HHOF games.

The Hall of Fame Game is another in-season exception and why Minnesota plays 37 games in the regular season.

 

[beersong]

Re: Minnesota Cup

You say you don't blame them but disparage them a sentence later? Is it all about the money or is it about prestige and brand recognition?

I don't think they are mutually exclusive. They hope the prestige and brand recognition will make them money in the long run.. much more than a flight somewhere costs. It's all about spreading your name around these days in hopes of making more money.

And for the record I didn't disparage them. I've never once said they should play any MN team if they don't want to. I just think its silly for them to continually put out this farce of "we really care about the other D1 teams in MN, yadda yadda" when really the school admin does not care at all and would probably rather be the only D1 team in MN. (notice I didn't say coaches, fans or players, etc) The only reason they are even considering this Minnesota Cup is because they'd make a boatload of cash.

 

[scsutommyboy]

Re: Minnesota Cup

IMO, the Gophers will have more of an advantage than they already do over the other schools for the elite players because they will always be on local and national television while the other schools like UND, CC and DU will be at a disadvantage for the elite Twin Cities recruits. Out of sight out of mind until the Gophers don't come calling.

It will be interesting 5 or 10 ten years down the road and see what it really will be like. One thing I have always said is college hockey really took off in this state when SCSU and then Mankato went D1. The Gophers will always be #1 in the state, but I truly believe the general public becoming Gopher hockey fans has a lot to do with the Final Five and the instate rivals that have been formed. a lot of talk and excitement gets worked up at the water cooler when instate rivals play at a lot of companies in this state. that lead to a lot more media exposure than college hockey ever use to get 25-30 years ago.

It will be interesting to see if the same amount of interest is there 10 years from now if they are never playing any of the in state teams. Don't get me wrong they will still sell out every game and be the place everybody wants to play at, but will interest go down a lot when there is not final five, no in state rival games?