Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[Priceless]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Thanks for confirming that you don't know how international oil markets work. Or that U.S. oil firms aren't getting most of the business in Iraq. Show me evidence that what you sayis going on is going on, and I'll give it at least a little credence. Till then you're just another conspiracy theorist.

Uhhhh...I'm agreeing that it would be quite a conspiracy. I have no idea that's what's happening, and make no claims as such. And if it were happening, an oil company admitting it would be front page news. The numbers you seek don't exist.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

ok, I stand corrected. Very few people thought or at least speculated that oil would or could pay for the Iraq war. Didn't make sense then, doesn't make sense now. Can you imagine the screaming around the world if we took any oil from Iraq? It'd be deafening.

Nobody was taking anything from Iraq. The oil was supposed to pay for reconstruction. Instead we spend money rebuilding Iraq while our own country goes down the outhouse hole.

How oil markets were is quite irrelevant to this discussion. Which started only because I suggested that the Afghans should get our drug money instead of the Mexicans because then maybe they could rebuild and defend their own country better than we can our own border.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Uhhhh...I'm agreeing that it would be quite a conspiracy. I have no idea that's what's happening, and make no claims as such. And if it were happening, an oil company admitting it would be front page news. The numbers you seek don't exist.

Of course the numbers don't exist, because your conspiracy theory has no basis. A little late to start backpedaling.

That is quite the dodge. You are throwing all this talk out there about the oil companies profiting off Iraq, cite DOE numbers as evidence, etc. and then you say you have no idea what's happening and make no claims. Try picking one position and sticking to it.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Nobody was taking anything from Iraq. The oil was supposed to pay for reconstruction. Instead we spend money rebuilding Iraq while our own country goes down the outhouse hole.

How oil markets were is quite irrelevant to this discussion. Which started only because I suggested that the Afghans should get our drug money instead of the Mexicans because then maybe they could rebuild and defend their own country better than we can our own border.

Agreed on Iraq. I was just responding to Priceless' nonsense about the government planning on cashing in on oil from Iraq and also U.S. oil companies getting supposed sweetheart deals.


And back on thread topic, there's a lot of folks other than Mexicans coming across the Arizona border these days, including folks from all over the Middle East. On a recent day in April, detainees in Pinal County included folks from Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, and the Sudan.

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_central_southern_az/other/terrorists-crossing-az-border-into-u.s.%3F

And the police chief in a popular resort town of Rocky Point on the Gulf of California is shot, along with his bodyguard. This'll really be bad for tourism and retirees looking to head down there.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/06/21/20100621rocky-point-police-chief-ambushed21-ON.html

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Sounds like a very interesting conversation took place between Obama and Jon Kyl, Senator from Arizona. Kyl confronted Obama on securing the border and Kyl reports that Obama responded: "The problem is, he said, `If we secure the border, then you won't have any reason to support comprehensive immigration reform.'"

This would explain a lot.

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1307105

Of course the White House is denying it.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Of course the numbers don't exist, because your conspiracy theory has no basis. A little late to start backpedaling.

That is quite the dodge. You are throwing all this talk out there about the oil companies profiting off Iraq, cite DOE numbers as evidence, etc. and then you say you have no idea what's happening and make no claims. Try picking one position and sticking to it.

You said there was no oil going from Iraq to the US. We import 500,000 barrels/day from Iraq. That isn't a conspiracy.

The government isn't buying and selling oil, there are oil companies that do that (despite what you may have read, we still live in a capitalist society). Before the war Wolfowitz told us US taxpayer money would not be needed because of the oil revenue. That money is staying in Iraq, building God knows what, while the US taxpayer foots the bill.

That's all I'm saying. Your obsession with conspiracy theories is puzzling.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

You said there was no oil going from Iraq to the US. We import 500,000 barrels/day from Iraq. That isn't a conspiracy.

The government isn't buying and selling oil, there are oil companies that do that (despite what you may have read, we still live in a capitalist society). Before the war Wolfowitz told us US taxpayer money would not be needed because of the oil revenue. That money is staying in Iraq, building God knows what, while the US taxpayer foots the bill.

That's all I'm saying. Your obsession with conspiracy theories is puzzling.

I said there is no evidence that the U.S. government or U.S. oil companies are getting sweetheart deals on oil, as you seem to believe. Of course the U.S. gets oil from Iraq, as it does from lots of other countries. I never said the U.S. doesn't get oil from Iraq. I think you're confusing the U.S. with U.S. oil companies. As I explained to you previously, you can't assume that the 500,000 a day is by U.S. oil companies or that it's at anything other than normal market prices. As long as the deals are at market prices, it doesn't matter if it's a U.S. oil company or any other oil company. It's all part of the same market. We could as easily get that 500,000 a day from Saudi and someone else get the 500,000 a day from Iraq instead of Saudi. The 500,000 a day tells you nothing. You're attempts at kicking dust in the air to make it sound like lots of bad stuff is happening have no basis.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Sounds like a very interesting conversation took place between Obama and Jon Kyl, Senator from Arizona. Kyl confronted Obama on securing the border and Kyl reports that Obama responded: "The problem is, he said, `If we secure the border, then you won't have any reason to support comprehensive immigration reform.'"

This would explain a lot.

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1307105

Of course the White House is denying it.

Yes, and there are stories out today that Rahmadan is on his way out. The discussion of when evidently centering on before or after the midterms. Chicago style politics is the political equivalent of clubbing baby seals, and the Rahmster is apparantly tired of dealing with people who can fight back.

On this business of oil, we all recall the central trope of the anti-Iraq war crowd: "no blood for oil." And shortly after we took over Baghdad, lefty media rushed to inform us that the "US was guarding the Ministry of Oil," which tended to "confirm" their darkest suspicions. Only problem was, the tanks were merely using the parking lot. After all, there is no oil in the Ministry of Oil. There's office furniture, filing cabinets, computers and microwaves in the break room, but no oil. Another example of the MSM not being the slighted bit deterred by the lack of truth in a story, so long as it advances their narrative.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I said there is no evidence that the U.S. government or U.S. oil companies are getting sweetheart deals on oil

And I agreed.

as you seem to believe.

No, I don't.

Of course the U.S. gets oil from Iraq, as it does from lots of other countries. I never said the U.S. doesn't get oil from Iraq. I think you're confusing the U.S. with U.S. oil companies. As I explained to you previously, you can't assume that the 500,000 a day is by U.S. oil companies or that it's at anything other than normal market prices. As long as the deals are at market prices, it doesn't matter if it's a U.S. oil company or any other oil company. It's all part of the same market. We could as easily get that 500,000 a day from Saudi and someone else get the 500,000 a day from Iraq instead of Saudi. The 500,000 a day tells you nothing. You're attempts at kicking dust in the air to make it sound like lots of bad stuff is happening have no basis.

All I'm saying is that we were told oil revenues would pay for the occupation. They haven't yet, and I doubt they ever will.

As for the 500,000 barrels, you said

Except, from all accounts I've read, U.S. oil companies haven't gotten a lot of business in Iraq.

Since we are importing 500,000 barrels from Iraq, that's not accurate. Iraq hasn't become Saudi Arabia - or Canada - but it is the seventh largest source of oil we have. I'd say oil companies have had at least some success securing contracts.

Obviously this is an argument that isn't going to end, so I'm going to declare you the winner and this thread can get back on topic.

 

[walrus]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Sounds like a very interesting conversation took place between Obama and Jon Kyl, Senator from Arizona. Kyl confronted Obama on securing the border and Kyl reports that Obama responded: "The problem is, he said, `If we secure the border, then you won't have any reason to support comprehensive immigration reform.'"

This would explain a lot.

http://ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=1307105

Of course the White House is denying it.

So who is lying?

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Yes, and there are stories out today that Rahmadan is on his way out. The discussion of when evidently centering on before or after the midterms. Chicago style politics is the political equivalent of clubbing baby seals, and the Rahmster is apparantly tired of dealing with people who can fight back.

On this business of oil, we all recall the central trope of the anti-Iraq war crowd: "no blood for oil." And shortly after we took over Baghdad, lefty media rushed to inform us that the "US was guarding the Ministry of Oil," which tended to "confirm" their darkest suspicions. Only problem was, the tanks were merely using the parking lot. After all, there is no oil in the Ministry of Oil. There's office furniture, filing cabinets, computers and microwaves in the break room, but no oil. Another example of the MSM not being the slighted bit deterred by the lack of truth in a story, so long as it advances their narrative.

the way I figure Rahm is that he's a prideful person who wants to do things... Obama doesn't want to win as much as he wants to WIN and that doesn't work for Emmanuel... which is why there's friction... Obama and crew thinks they can use Chicago-style politics and the traditional asymmetric behavior of liberals to lever in all his ideological goals. Remember, these guys want to remake the United States within their ideological dictates.

We're dealing with people who aren't particularly interested in compromise... they want it all... Emmanuel is more of an incrementalist and probably more moderate in ideology. Put that together and hence the friction with the administration. Likewise the more impotent he looks the worse his political future is because most politics is based upon the "oomph" or strength you can project into your characture. If Obama is going to be hard-core ideological and, inevitably, fails then it makes Emmanuel look impotent which is a no-go for him.

That being said, without Rahm these guys are stuck... they keep thinking they'll be fighting the same enemy as 2008... they forget 2008 was a poisonous atmosphere for conservatives because of all the hate tied to Bush and that their candidate tied together a lot of charisma (NLP) and touched tones which soothed those that consider themselves to be thinking persons. I believe they think they can do it all again because it was easy enough last time. They won't. Losing Rahm is like losing their rudder. If they go ideological, the Republican may still fire enough bullets into their arse... but Obama will be going shot for shot as we'll see more of the socialist Obama those who know is background are aware and not the "moderate" he feinted to be.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Sure. Just another thing the US can't accomplish. Like drilling in the Gulf.

First of all, the company involved in that disaster is BP - British Petroleum.

Secondly, I *think* that was the first major oil spill from a drilling rig in something like 40 years (tankers have a much worse safety record, and if the left gets its way and we stop offshore drilling completely, we'll be relying heavily on tankers to import oil).

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

the way I figure Rahm is that he's a prideful person who wants to do things... Obama doesn't want to win as much as he wants to WIN and that doesn't work for Emmanuel... which is why there's friction... Obama and crew thinks they can use Chicago-style politics and the traditional asymmetric behavior of liberals to lever in all his ideological goals. Remember, these guys want to remake the United States within their ideological dictates.

We're dealing with people who aren't particularly interested in compromise... they want it all... Emmanuel is more of an incrementalist and probably more moderate in ideology. Put that together and hence the friction with the administration. Likewise the more impotent he looks the worse his political future is because most politics is based upon the "oomph" or strength you can project into your characture. If Obama is going to be hard-core ideological and, inevitably, fails then it makes Emmanuel look impotent which is a no-go for him.

That being said, without Rahm these guys are stuck... they keep thinking they'll be fighting the same enemy as 2008... they forget 2008 was a poisonous atmosphere for conservatives because of all the hate tied to Bush and that their candidate tied together a lot of charisma (NLP) and touched tones which soothed those that consider themselves to be thinking persons. I believe they think they can do it all again because it was easy enough last time. They won't. Losing Rahm is like losing their rudder. If they go ideological, the Republican may still fire enough bullets into their arse... but Obama will be going shot for shot as we'll see more of the socialist Obama those who know is background are aware and not the "moderate" he feinted to be.

Interesting. Who knows? Maybe you're on the nose. However, it was Rahmalamadingdong who didn't want to "waste" crises. History, as they say, will tell the tale.

And there's that persistent talk that the Rahmeister wants to be "mare" of Chicago. We really need Mike Royko these days.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Interesting. Who knows? Maybe you're on the nose. However, it was Rahmalamadingdong who didn't want to "waste" crises. History, as they say, will tell the tale.

And there's that persistent talk that the Rahmeister wants to be "mare" of Chicago. We really need Mike Royko these days.

Look, Rahm is a hard political operator... but he also knows that half way is better than no way. Look at the things that the Dems had to pull to get healthcare done... that was a farce of democracy.... but Rahm knew that going for that would... well... do what it has done now... put the Dems in a horrible position in general. That would cost them, and it has.

That being said, he still is no holds barred.... but at the same time, he's playing to win. The Obama administration is playing to WIN. The Obama wants their hole slate regardless of the costs by any means necessary. The reality is they won't be able to have it or get it... but the Obama team doesn't think that... they think they can by using their abilities that took them through 2008.

These are the "smartest people in the room" types... the same ones (mentally) which took us headlong into the economic crisis. They're sure of their abilities... I think their hubris will be exposed because their are limits to how far the media can bend.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

So who is lying?

Obama...why else would Bob bring it up?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

And I agreed.

All I'm saying is that we were told oil revenues would pay for the occupation. They haven't yet, and I doubt they ever will.

As for the 500,000 barrels, you said

Since we are importing 500,000 barrels from Iraq, that's not accurate. Iraq hasn't become Saudi Arabia - or Canada - but it is the seventh largest source of oil we have. I'd say oil companies have had at least some success securing contracts.

Obviously this is an argument that isn't going to end, so I'm going to declare you the winner and this thread can get back on topic.

You keep confusing the 500,000 barrels. I'm not going to explain that for a 3rd or 4th time.

I was never told oil revenues would pay for the war. You are taking a not very realistic and not widely held viewpoint and making it seem like a lot more than it ever was.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

So who is lying?

I'd certainly believe Kyl over Obama (or McCain though he's not part of this particular discussion). It certainly helps explain the administration's failure to do much of anything on the border and even in certain cases quietly cutting funding.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Nobody was taking anything from Iraq. The oil was supposed to pay for reconstruction. Instead we spend money rebuilding Iraq while our own country goes down the outhouse hole.

Well, look at the bright side, an outhouse has a bottom... eventually...

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Look, Rahm is a hard political operator... but he also knows that half way is better than no way. Look at the things that the Dems had to pull to get healthcare done... that was a farce of democracy.... but Rahm knew that going for that would... well... do what it has done now... put the Dems in a horrible position in general. That would cost them, and it has.

That being said, he still is no holds barred.... but at the same time, he's playing to win. The Obama administration is playing to WIN. The Obama wants their hole slate regardless of the costs by any means necessary. The reality is they won't be able to have it or get it... but the Obama team doesn't think that... they think they can by using their abilities that took them through 2008.

These are the "smartest people in the room" types... the same ones (mentally) which took us headlong into the economic crisis. They're sure of their abilities... I think their hubris will be exposed because their are limits to how far the media can bend.

Where's Ira Magaziner when we really need him?

 

[walrus]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Obama...why else would Bob bring it up?

Why would Kyl lie about this? I can see where Obama would, for the reasons Kyl said. Would Kyl do it just to take a ounce of flesh? Their certainly is a chance of that