Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

To a degree, yes. You had to wait in a long-ass line, and there was always the threat of quarantine if you were suspected of a disease.

But, by and large, the process was essentially: renounce citizenship and get in. The only things that stopped you were disease, criminal record or having a case of the crazies (and that's only if it could be proven while you were there). The Q&A portion was, I believe, 25-30 questions that you had to answer. Only 2% or so of applicants were denied.

Compared to what the system has been like since the 20's, yes Ellis Island was a picnic.

This also brings to mind one of the great urban legends: immigrants having their names changed at Ellis Island.

(Note: I'm a member of Ancestry.com so let me know if you can't access that article. It also has great information about the examination process. Although it was a virtual lock, the immigrants didn't know that and they were often terrified they'd be turned back.)

The gist is that the immigration officials had the resources and experience to get the names right. Name changes were usually deliberate decisions by the family, or mistakes by other officials (teachers, census takers, employers). Spelling were also far more fluid -- in my family, we were Popovic as Czechs, Popovits when Hungarian officials kept records in German, and then Popovich in English -- the pronunciations are equivalent by each language's rules.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

This also brings to mind one of the great urban legends: immigrants having their names changed at Ellis Island.

(Note: I'm a member of Ancestry.com so let me know if you can't access that article. It also has great information about the examination process. Although it was a virtual lock, the immigrants didn't know that and they were often terrified they'd be turned back.)

The gist is that the immigration officials had the resources and experience to get the names right. Name changes were usually deliberate decisions by the family, or mistakes by other officials (teachers, census takers, employers). Spelling were also far more fluid -- in my family, we were Popovic as Czechs, Popovits when Hungarian officials kept records in German, and then Popovich in English -- the pronunciations are equivalent by each language's rules.

Wait, wait, wait. You mean Vito Andolini DIDN'T have his name changed to Vito Corleone by some schmuck immigration official?

 

[Slap Shot]

Really?

Really?

As surely as night follows day, you can bet that any scheme which allows illegals permission to work here will be followed by suggestions that they be allowed to vote. Lefties have been working hard trolling for votes among felons and doing the same with illegals would be automatic. There have already been suggestions that illegals should get to vote in municipal elections "after all, they'd only be voting for mayors and city council, not members of congress." Mark my words on this one.

People can suggest to their hearts content, but I truly hope and believe that this will never come to fruition.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I agree.

If you can work legally without becoming a citizen then you are, to a degree, protected under U.S. law, something citizens are guaranteed under the Constitution. So, if you can live in the U.S. and not be a citizen and gain employment, then...

1. Why work for workplace reform? It drives up costs and raises prices.

2. Why even have an INS? If they can work and get many of the privileges of citizenship, why become a citizen?

Well, there are those who would prefer to just stay here on work visas. You know what? That's fine. I don't care if someone wants to live here and not be a citizen. But they should do it legally: they should get a work visa. Why should we just be okay for them to ****ing come here, under the radar, and just EXPECT that we'll be able to use our government resources on whatever they want and be ever so happy to do it?

Bunch of parasites. If they want to rape our country like this, the least they can do is have the common courtesy to give us a reach around.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Really?

Re: Really?

People can suggest to their hearts content, but I truly hope and believe that this will never come to fruition.

You're probbly right. But who would advocate such nonsense? One of the highlights of the 70's used to be watching the appearances before Democratic conventions of the National Welfare Rights outfit.

They once appeared on David Susskind's talk show, explaining how if their benefits didn't cover the cost of something they wanted, they were entitled to appropriate it (I think that was the language they used, "steal" was just so plebian). Poor Susskind, major league liberal, was unable to deal with those people. It still makes me laugh, all these years later.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

You can pay for more cops, more prosecutors, more jails. Hell, just have the state use its eminant domain powers to acquire a 20-foot-wide strip of land right along the border and build its own wall.

Ok, so in a bad economy where state budgets are under severe pressure due to falling tax revenues, you want a state to fork over more money to deal with a problem that is clearly the responsibility of the federal government?

The Feds have said they won't help. Well, now you know. So stop looking for solutions that involve them and start using the powers the states still have.

That's what Arizona tried to do until the DOJ sued them and got the key portions of their law blocked by a judge. What else can they try at the state level that won't break their budget? Or perhaps a better question is this: what can they try that: a) will be effective and b) won't draw the ire of the pro-open borders Obama administration?

Until the federal government decides to fund and enforce a coherent immigration strategy, Arizona is in an unwinnable situation.

 

[Patman]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Lets remember when bringing in these illegal migrants in the US we're talking about having a need for a mass increase of uneducated labor... we didn't need it when we were at 4%... we CERTAINLY don't need it at 10%

In either case, Obama's interest in enforcing the law is only as much as it will help to get an amnesty passed. These guys want a voting block to ensure the success of their moral dictates so they really see nothing wrong with screwing over current citizens. Further as internationalist they don't see American citizens being deserving of special rights when compared to other nationals.

So, what we're going to see is another law struck down because it offends the liberal moral system and not the law of the nation. This whole illegal immigration bit has been about companies desiring cheap abusable labor and the Dems wanting their dreams to come true... an underclass to service and bleat about and a group willing to serve as a voting basis so they can bring their ridiculous anti-pragmatic view to the world.

The goal of socialism never ended... they're just trying to re-tool it to do it "better"... they always think they can do it better... they're smart after all.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Its a shame to see the AZ law blocked...assuming Arizona bares all costs associated with its own law. If not, I'm not a fan...as every state in the union can come up with some special interst law giving the feds no chance stopping unlimited funding of state whims. Its an issue of precidence. I guess I'm going under the assumption that the deficit is a problem.

The goal of socialism never ended... they're just trying to re-tool it to do it "better"... they always think they can do it better... they're smart after all.

Way off base on this one. Illegal immigration has nothing to do with socialism and everything to do with capitalism. Illegals fill an economic need and businesses love them for it. It makes American business more profitable (ig rich) and cuts costs so that you and I can buy far more than we would otherwise. The ripple effect of illegal immigration is far greater than many give it and delivers big dollars in tax revenue for both incremental corporate and sales tax. If you want to criticize the fundamental driver of illegal immigration you need to stop the reason why anyone comes to the US...to work.

 

[ExileOnDaytonStreet]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Think nothing of it, 5mn_major... some people just like to ramble on about socialism.

Here's a thought: if we can determine that it is unconstitutional to enforce a federal law on the state or municipal level (which, let's be honest, is what the AZ law is all about), then maybe we need to start looking at how we enforce other federal laws. You know, like bank robbery. Or child pornography. Or interstate drug trafficking.

I mean, we need to be giving full rights to drug runners, bank robbers and Gary Glitter, don't we?

 

[unofan]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Think nothing of it, 5mn_major... some people just like to ramble on about socialism.

Here's a thought: if we can determine that it is unconstitutional to enforce a federal law on the state or municipal level (which, let's be honest, is what the AZ law is all about), then maybe we need to start looking at how we enforce other federal laws. You know, like bank robbery. Or child pornography. Or interstate drug trafficking.

I mean, we need to be giving full rights to drug runners, bank robbers and Gary Glitter, don't we?

Of course, the difference from a technical legal standpoint is that the Feds haven't pre-empted the area of criminal law like bank robbery, drug trafficking, or child pornography, all of which are just as illegal under state law as they are under federal law. They have pre-empted immigration/border control; states don't get to set their own immigration laws.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Way off base on this one. Illegal immigration has nothing to do with socialism and everything to do with capitalism.

What exactly is capitalist about providing healthcare to people who cannot pay for it? Yes, the companies that employ these people are making out like bandits by paying lower wages and no benefits. However, the healthcare system is taking it in the shorts when the illegals show up for emergency care and do not pay for it.

As for how to slow or stop illegal immigration, the solution is for Mexico to get its act together and stop being a crime-infested country of drug-runners. Maybe if that economy created some *'ing jobs, the populace down there wouldn't feel the need to cross the border looking for work.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

What exactly is capitalist about providing healthcare to people who cannot pay for it?

Keep your workers healthy to better exploit them. Duh!

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Its a shame to see the AZ law blocked...assuming Arizona bares all costs associated with its own law. If not, I'm not a fan...as every state in the union can come up with some special interst law giving the feds no chance stopping unlimited funding of state whims. Its an issue of precidence. I guess I'm going under the assumption that the deficit is a problem.

Ok. I really tried to hold off on this, but again I'm going to call you out on this specious argument. To claim that a little more money for AZ border control (as has already been given to California, NM, and Texas for many years by the way) matters on the federal budget level is simply ridiculous.

A matter of precedence? You must not have followed federal spending practices since, oh, at least JFK's years? So Robert Byrd's 50+ years of WV pork barrel and all the other pork barrel that has gone out for decades and decades isn't precedent, and that isn't even for meaningful federal responsibilities the way controlling your border is. The irony is, on most pork-barrel assessments, the AZ delegation is at or near the best ranking for not taking pork barrel. I guess they just should have sidled up to the trough over the years the way Byrd and company have, and we could have our own wall and all. I'm sorry, but that's a woeful argument, no other way of cutting it.

 

[Tundra]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Keep your workers healthy to better exploit them. Duh!

Plus healthy workers are more productive workers.

 

[Jon]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Maybe if that economy created some *'ing jobs, the populace down there wouldn't feel the need to cross the border looking for work.

Dodging bullets from warring drug cartels isn't a paying job? Huh.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

You got me. I am gainfully employed, and my job often requires my active attention. I noticed the dateline and thought it was new.

As you were.

And that fact separates you from most conservatives on the board. Funny how the people claiming that everyone should pick themselves up by the bootstraps always seem to have trouble finding their own.

As far as Arizona goes, who cares? The state sucks. Its full of either 1) old people, or 2) meth heads. The amount of productive people as a % of the total population is amongst the lowest in the country. Bob, you don't seem like a bad guy, maybe a little whiny, so take my advice and get the h ell out of there and go to a more normal state. Utah I hear is nice if you don't mind converting to Mormonism, and as an added bonus I don't believe too many illegals are Mormons. Of course, that doesn't count the ones Mitt Romney hired to work in his yard...

 

[Kepler]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

Plus healthy workers are more productive workers.

Henry Ford says hi.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

And that fact separates you from most conservatives on the board. Funny how the people claiming that everyone should pick themselves up by the bootstraps always seem to have trouble finding their own.

As far as Arizona goes, who cares? The state sucks. Its full of either 1) old people, or 2) meth heads. The amount of productive people as a % of the total population is amongst the lowest in the country. Bob, you don't seem like a bad guy, maybe a little whiny, so take my advice and get the h ell out of there and go to a more normal state. Utah I hear is nice if you don't mind converting to Mormonism, and as an added bonus I don't believe too many illegals are Mormons. Of course, that doesn't count the ones Mitt Romney hired to work in his yard...

You're love of Arizona is noted. I'll admit, this time of year, thoughts do wander to living elsewhere. Thankfully there are opportunities to get to colder climes through the summer.

 

[Rover]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

You're love of Arizona is noted. I'll admit, this time of year, thoughts do wander to living elsewhere. Thankfully there are opportunities to get to colder climes through the summer.

I don't understand why illegals are still coming to Arizona, unless they're just passing through. I don't imagine there's too many farms to work in a desert, and with the glut of speculative housing there can't be a lot of new construction going on either. Are they just wandering around or something?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Illegal Immigration Pt. III: It's Illegal to be Illegal? Really?

I don't understand why illegals are still coming to Arizona, unless they're just passing through. I don't imagine there's too many farms to work in a desert, and with the glut of speculative housing there can't be a lot of new construction going on either. Are they just wandering around or something?

There actually is quite a bit of farming, especially in the Yuma area. They also have, at least in the past, worked at tourist hotels, done yard work, etc. The jobs aren't as abundant as in the past for sure. And you're correct that construction jobs are pretty much disappeared. Plus, some have family already in Arizona.