How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

[Puck Swami]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Major junior is a superb developer of hockey talent and no one disputes that, least of all me. In terms of hockey, major junior probably has an edge (albeit slight) in terms of development over college hockey. That said, great talent can and will develop in either system or in Europe.

We can debate the merits of one development system over the other other in hockey terms ad infinitum, but they are pretty close. Top round kids, non-academic kids and goalies probably develop a little better in the CHL. Players who need to bulk up, mid-round or late bloomers and those who need more practice time probably develop a little better in the NCAA, but those are generalizations and each player's situation is different.

However, if you are just looking at educational merit, it's not close at all. In fact, it's a rout. The NCAA graduates 84% it players with a degree vs. 16% for Major Junior. The educational expenditures are not in the same ballpark.The CHL can talk about education, but they are not at the NCAA's level when it comes to education, and given the business of junior hockey, I doubt they ever could be...

So at the end of the day, knowing that 95% of elite hockey players will not be making it to the NHL, which system gives you the best chance of success? Seems to me that even if you give a slight edge to the CHL in hockey development, the overwhelming educational advantage of the NCAA more than makes up the difference....

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

All the more pity for us that we are being fleeced by our higher Ed institutions for increasingly less relevant degrees. Props to the Canadians for keeping their costs down, where 7000k is more than enough to cover a year of schooling. What would you have Kitchener say...."hey I know they are being over charged in Colorado so here's an extra 10K to make you feel better"...PLEASE!

American kids are going to want to go to American schools with American prices.

We are talking about specific schools with specific costs because the top kids are going to go to top schools, and many of those are expensive. For example, John Moore would have gone to CC had he not gone to the O. John Moore would have gotten a CC education, which is expensive. Now the best he can get is the cost of the school closest to his home, which is National-Louis University. It costs $18315 per year to go there. Tuition for CC is $38748. The OHL cannot offer a comparable package to what CC offered.

First off you place far too much importance on a general degree. Tell me, who will earn more over a life time...sociology major (or English, History, General Business, General Studies...you get the point here) or a person who goes to a tech school to become vocationally certified? The reality is that simply having an "education" is not enough anymore. It is about having the right education. One is not a failure because he does not go to a 4 year degree granting institution to collect a liberal arts degree, one may be more of a success because he chose a field more in tuned with his aptitudes and one more relevant to the modern job market. Tell me,(or ask Paul Kelly for me), how many current NCAA players are enrolled in health related programs(not including exercise Science and the like), Engineering majors, Computer Sciences or the hard core Sciences? I'll bet you that the number is very very low!

How many CIS students that are former hockey players are in those programs? How does the breakdown of NCAA D-1 hockey players' majors compare with other NCAA teams' majors? With institutions as a whole? Provide me with this information so it will actually be a relevant discussion.

EVEN THOUGH IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION, here's a little data: at tUMD, of the people not listed as "undecided" (and I *know* they are not undecided, just don't know their major as the SID didn't do their research), we have 5 accounting majors, 1 actuarial science major, 1 pre-dentistry, 1 mechanical engineer, and 1 finance major. That's 35% of the team in challenging majors. And all of them (except freshmen who were ineligible for the honor) were All-Academic Team members, and all but one were regular everyday players. One now has an NHL contract, two are goalies, and one is probably our best-known player (possibly 2nd best).

Additionally, many schools that have D-1 hockey are ELITE schools where ANY degree is going to cut it. Are you honestly turning up your nose at a Harvard, Yale or DU "general business" degree?

THE WHOLE PREMISE OF THIS CONVERSATION IS THAT THE HOCKEY PLAYERS IN QUESTION ARE WEIGHING EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES. IF THEY WANT TO GO TO A TECH SCHOOL THEN THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE CONSIDERING D-1 HOCKEY. STOP MAKING STUPID ARGUMENTS THAT ARE IRRELEVANT.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

American kids are going to want to go to American schools with American prices.
.

And American kids are being given scholarship packages in American dollars so they can pay American prices.

John Moore would have gone to CC had he not gone to the O. John Moore would have gotten a CC education, which is expensive. Now the best he can get is the cost of the school closest to his home, which is National-Louis University. It costs $18315 per year to go there. Tuition for CC is $38748. The OHL cannot offer a comparable package to what CC offered.

False, John Moore was offered a package that would have covered his expenses to a school like CC. Just as Fowler was given a package that would cover his expenses to go to Notre Dame....please follow along here dogs as it is getting rather tiring have to always repeat the same info.

How many CIS students that are former hockey players are in those programs? How does the breakdown of NCAA D-1 hockey players' majors compare with other NCAA teams' majors? With institutions as a whole? Provide me with this information so it will actually be a relevant discussion.

That info would have to be provided by you and other NCAA supporters as it is you who are making the claim that an education cannot be attained by going the CHL route. All you have provided so far is that a 1/3rd of players at UMD are in challenging programs....we can assume what the rest are in.

THE WHOLE PREMISE OF THIS CONVERSATION IS THAT THE HOCKEY PLAYERS IN QUESTION ARE WEIGHING EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES. IF THEY WANT TO GO TO A TECH SCHOOL THEN THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE CONSIDERING D-1 HOCKEY. STOP MAKING STUPID ARGUMENTS THAT ARE IRRELEVANT.

Sorry dog but you can't have it both ways. You cannot say that on the one hand the CHL is not successful in providing education opportunities for their players (since some do not want to go to college) while on the other hand state, well we shouldn't even be discussing players who want to go to Tech schools. Paul Kelly and his ilk made no differentiation between the two, thus they are included and are RELEVENT!!!

In fact, it's a rout. The NCAA graduates 84% it players with a degree vs. 16% for Major Junior. The educational expenditures are not in the same ballpark.The CHL can talk about education, but they are not at the NCAA's level when it comes to education, and given the business of junior hockey, I doubt they ever could be...

Swami, are you aware where this 16% figure came from? It was derived from a fired and failed OHL scout (who I know personally by the way) who went on to become the director of scouting for the USHL (before they too nudged him aside). He merely looked at a hockey data base to come to his 16% figure. It was widely laughed at in OHL circles

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

And American kids are being given scholarship packages in American dollars so they can pay American prices.

Of the school CLOSEST TO THEIR HOME.

False, John Moore was offered a package that would have covered his expenses to a school like CC. Just as Fowler was given a package that would cover his expenses to go to Notre Dame....please follow along here dogs as it is getting rather tiring have to always repeat the same info.

I am sorry that I can't keep up with your lies. Rich is much nicer than I am, but he is right. You jump from point to point, backpedal, backtrack, fill your comments with red herrings that deliberately throw this thread off-topic, and invent information you cannot substantiate.

So you are saying that the OHL breaks their own rules for the likes of John Moore? Prove it to me. Show me his offer. You're so well-connected, this should be simple for you.

That info would have to be provided by you and other NCAA supporters as it is you who are making the claim that an education cannot be attained by going the CHL route. All you have provided so far is that a 1/3rd of players at UMD are in challenging programs....we can assume what the rest are in.

I don't have to provide those statistics to you because YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE TOPIC, YOU SHOULD BRING STATISTICS. You want me to provide the information, but you never have to? You make baseless claims and want me to go look things up?

I'm not discussing the majors situation anymore. I wrote about a paragraph on it but it is a red herring and not germane to the discussion.

Sorry dog but you can't have it both ways. You cannot say that on the one hand the CHL is not successful in providing education opportunities for their players (since some do not want to go to college) while on the other hand state, well we shouldn't even be discussing players who want to go to Tech schools. Paul Kelly and his ilk made no differentiation between the two, thus they are included and are RELEVENT!!!

1. I am a human, not a dog.
2. It's spelled 'relevant'
3. I am not having it both ways. You are not even making a real argument here. You do not understand the argument here. You do not understand what anyone is saying. Discuss the topic at hand: when a player is deciding between NCAA hockey and MJs, and values education as well as development, who provides the best educational value? If a player is thinking about becoming a network administrator, a pipefitter or an electrician, he is not even going to be considering the NCAAs unless he also wants a university education. Players who have no interest in a university education are not considering the NCAA. No one is asking them to. Stop being stupid and grasp this simple concept.

 

[Hokydad]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

You are the one who is wrong here pal...

Have you ever heard of the Patrick Kane deal? Where they gave his sister a free education?

Why don't you post the supposed rules? You are the one who keeps saying they are breaking them. Show us the exact rule out of a rule book you are talking about.

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Yeah! RWD, YOU'RE wrong. You don't know anything, so stop acting like you do, Mr. Bub.

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

RE: John Moore

The standard player deal, which is school closest to the home, one year of school for every year of service, etc. is negotiable. For every kid good enough to have the NCAA be an option, the deal is pretty standard that once they give up their NCAA eligibility, they get four years of schooling--albeit with the standard out-clauses that ensure the CHL only has to pay on about a third of the deals, and of that third, I'm willing to bet the large majority come from the standard deal group, and not the automatic four-year group.

The thing with John Moore is that he had already signed with Columbus and was then assigned to Kitchener, so since he had signed an NHL contract, all that educational money is no longer available to him, unless he wanted to take a class or two last year while in the OHL.

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The thing with John Moore is that he had already signed with Columbus and was then assigned to Kitchener, so since he had signed an NHL contract, all that educational money is no longer available to him, unless he wanted to take a class or two last year while in the OHL.

I wasn't really thinking of that so yes, you are right, but he was an easy example. I guess I could have used Campbell or something. The point is the same though.

I erased the first because I wasn't going to respond to it, but offering a guaranteed 4 years of education to a first-rounder is hilarious, as they're offering a package they're almost surely never going to have to pay. Of course, offering a 4 year scholarship to a first round player is slightly less hilarious, as they are only on the hook for one year, maybe two, occasionally 3 (Oshie, Finley [thanks Dirty]) so of course the school knows they are not on the hook for the full amount.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Of the school CLOSEST TO THEIR HOME.
.

Please educate yourself on this issue....the standard OHL education package is merely the floor in terms of negotiations. Elite level players, especially Americans, are given much more than just tuition based on prices closest to their homes.

I am sorry that I can't keep up with your lies. Rich is much nicer than I am, but he is right. You jump from point to point, backpedal, backtrack, fill your comments with red herrings that deliberately throw this thread off-topic, and invent information you cannot substantiate.

So you are saying that the OHL breaks their own rules for the likes of John Moore? Prove it to me. Show me his offer. You're so well-connected, this should be simple for you.

Yes sometimes the truth hurts doesn't it dog? It’s much easier to yell and scream and call someone a liar. Where have I backpedalled? Where have I gone off on a tangent? I have stuck to the facts, you simply need to accept them. Are you sure you know the OHL rules? Can you prove that they only offer all players tuition based on prices close to their homes??

Here is a quote from your favorite article, answered by Joe Birch, the director of education for the OHL...

The “domicile rule,” if applied, could cap Fowler’s annual OHL education fund at about $18,000 based on the top rates at the closet colleges to the family home. That includes Wayne State and Eastern Michigan.

But, according to Birch, the rule doesn’t appear to apply to Fowler. “Cam could have received a full-ride from the Windsor Spitfires, no different than he received a full-ride from Notre Dame,” Birch said.

Worth $50,000, if he accesses it? “Yes,” Birch said.

Good enough for you dog?

don't have to provide those statistics to you because YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE TOPIC, YOU SHOULD BRING STATISTICS. You want me to provide the information, but you never have to? You make baseless claims and want me to go look things up?

It is you who is making allegations that the CHL education fund is a fraud, so yes you need to back it up.

I am a human, not a dog.

Perhaps try acting like one...dog.

I am not having it both ways. You are not even making a real argument here. You do not understand the argument here. You do not understand what anyone is saying. Discuss the topic at hand: when a player is deciding between NCAA hockey and MJs, and values education as well as development, who provides the best educational value? If a player is thinking about becoming a network administrator, a pipefitter or an electrician, he is not even going to be considering the NCAAs unless he also wants a university education. Players who have no interest in a university education are not considering the NCAA. No one is asking them to.

The whole premise here is that posters such as yourself claim that the CHL is not a viable alternative to a quality education. You are quick to jump on any story or statement that attempts to paint the CHL in the most negative light possible. You scream and jump and say "LOOK LOOK, THE BAD CHL ONLY HAS A 20% GRADUATION RATE!!!" yet cannot in no way shape or form back up that claim. When one points out that many CHL players do in fact take advantage of their scholarships, you proclaim "NOT ALL...NOT EVEN THE MAJORITY" When sound reasons are given as to why some do not go on to colleges, suddenly they are no longer relevant.

Stop being stupid and grasp this simple concept.

You have done a fine job of sounding stupid. Sadly, I think it may be too much for you to grasp anything

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Jnacc, respond to the topic at hand. No more red herrings. I won't respond to any more of your posts that are off topic. Similar to how I told Hokydad I won't respond to him until he spell-checks.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Jnacc, respond to the topic at hand. No more red herrings. I won't respond to any more of your posts that are off topic. Similar to how I told Hokydad I won't respond to him until he spell-checks.

Please! I understand it is much easier to yell and make claims of "red herrings" when one is being thrashed (as you have been) in an arguement but I could care less if someone like you ever repsonds to myself or anyone else ever again......CYA and glad I aint ya!

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

You tell him jnacc!

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

You tell him jnacc!

Umm lessons in differentiating between genders of the same species will have to wait for another day dirty....now be a good boy and go lay down.

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

I bet you're as good at teaching differentiating between genders as you are at teaching us all about the CHL's superiority in every way. I can't wait!

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

I bet you're as good at teaching differentiating between genders as you are at teaching us all about the CHL's superiority in every way. I can't wait!

Well its really a given for most normal people there dirty and no lessons are required but I'm going to try and reach way down to help a little "dirty" mind like yours....now don't go wetting yourself there boy...just relax and wait for the lesson to start.

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight in anticipation of your undoubtedly brilliant lesson plan.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

I don't think I'll be able to sleep tonight in anticipation of your undoubtedly brilliant lesson plan.

Well if your that excited and can't sleep, do what you normally do and are good at....just try a different hand this time...you know for fun....now be a good boy and go "play"

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

I don't see how playing HiHo Cherry-O left handed will help. Will you be covering this in the lesson tomorrow as well?

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

I don't see how playing HiHo Cherry-O left handed will help. Will you be covering this in the lesson tomorrow as well?

Nope! Can't and won't help you with that there dirty....I suppose you will just have to walk the lonely streets at night again looking for you know what.....hey gotta great idea though, I'm sure your lady friend "the dog" can give you some real solid referrals though

Good luck buddy.

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Nope! Can't and won't help you with that there dirty....I suppose you will just have to walk the lonely streets at night again looking for you know what

The jade monkey? I found it. It was in the glove compartment.