How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

[MinnFan]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The AFA simply wanted to be in the same conference as Army. You cannot fault them for wanting that. If Navy where ever able to add a D-1 Program I'm sure that AFA and Army would force Atlantic Hockey into accepting them. The service academies should always play together.

That was certianly one of the reasons, but there was a lot more to it than that. They didn't believe in the long-term viability of the conference and they thought they could be one of the top teams instead of middle of the pack in the CHA.

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The AFA simply wanted to be in the same conference as Army. You cannot fault them for wanting that. If Navy where ever able to add a D-1 Program I'm sure that AFA and Army would force Atlantic Hockey into accepting them. The service academies should always play together.

Well Army could have just permanently joined the CHA. As could Navy. And they would have played each other anyway. Are we all unaware of something called "non-conference games?"

I can't believe I'm still discussing this, as it's a moot point and not even relevant. I'll just say Bemidji sucks and ruined everything. End of story.

***Puck Swami, your yahoo account was hacked and you keep spamming me.

 

[FreddyFoyle]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The one stat in the presentation that really jumped out at me was that if you take the 16% of CHL players who get a college degree, and you add in the 5% of of CHL players who eventually see the NHL and add them together, there are still 79-80% of of CHL players who don't get to the NHL and don't get a degree, either. That's a huge number of players.

In the NCAA, 84% get a degreee and 5% get to the NHL, so there is only about 10% who don't get one or the other.

No offence intended Swami, but I love how folks on this board play with stats to suit their cause. Far less than half of the American or Canadian population graduate from university, so how can you compare NCAA student athlete graduation rates versus the CHL, whose teams are of course not academic institutions? Apples and oranges. Maybe, just maybe, many of the kids playing in the CHL are from the pool of "dumb jocks" who unfortunately wouldn't even be inclined/equipped to graduate from high school, let alone university or college. Of course, the NCAA is not going to recruit from that nonacademic crowd.

Frankly, CHL and NCAA graduate rates are not comparable. It is a misuse of statistics. Should we compare the graduation rates of NCAA baseball schools versus minor league baseball teams?

 

[MaizeRage]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Frankly, CHL and NCAA graduate rates are not comparable. It is a misuse of statistics. Should we compare the graduation rates of NCAA baseball schools versus minor league baseball teams?

I've never seen a press release from a minor league baseball team touting their "extensive scholarship program".

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Freddy:

MaizeRage is making my point. The major junior programs have really become quite good at creating "education packages" as a selling point to entice Americans (and University-capable Canadians) to choose that development route over the NCAA route. The point here is that the educational packages marketed to CHL players do not produce the kind of educational results that NCAA schools do...

The CHL is terrific system to play hockey in - that cannot be questioned. It's a great place to develop and get accustomed to the NHL lifestyle. But the educational role the CHL plays is minor in comparison with NCAA hockey.

 

[beaverhockeyfan]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Not really. Lack of a conference is a hurdle, but one that could be worked around. Title IX rules absolutely can't be worked around. There's a lot of schools very open to the idea of adding a men's team since it can be a revenue-generating sport, but no one can afford the financial black hole of a women's team necessary to comply with the law.

But, you don't have to add a womens hockey team to be in compliance with Title IX. All you have to do is add enough womens scholarships and opportunities to get you in compliance. It could be soccer, swimming, field hockey, lacrosse, track, water polo, whatever, but you don't necessarily have to add womens hockey.

Heck, take a look at UNO. They don't even offer a D-I womens sport that I know of, let alone hockey. But yet they have enough scholarships and opportunities with their womens programs to be in compliance with Title IX.

As for the CHA falling apart being a death blow for college hockey expansion, one needs to remember that the CHA was never intended to be a conference, just a scheduling alliance to help the programs schedule games. It was after they started digging a little deeper that they found if they formed a league and did their time (three years at that time?), they would receive an autobid to the NCAA Tournament. It was never intended to be a permanent solution for these teams.

 

[Rich]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

No offence intended Swami, but I love how folks on this board play with stats to suit their cause. Far less than half of the American or Canadian population graduate from university, so how can you compare NCAA student athlete graduation rates versus the CHL, whose teams are of course not academic institutions? Apples and oranges. Maybe, just maybe, many of the kids playing in the CHL are from the pool of "dumb jocks" who unfortunately wouldn't even be inclined/equipped to graduate from high school, let alone university or college. Of course, the NCAA is not going to recruit from that nonacademic crowd.

Frankly, CHL and NCAA graduate rates are not comparable. It is a misuse of statistics. Should we compare the graduation rates of NCAA baseball schools versus minor league baseball teams?

The CHL has created and advertized an education package in an attempt to convince players and their parents that if their professional hockey dreams don't materialize, they can still have their degree paid for by the hockey team. They are doing this specifically in response to more top (first, second round) players choosing the NCAA route. If it turns out that the education package they're selling has all sorts of strings attached that prevent people from using it, then it is definitely a valid topic of discussion. Graduation rates are one metric that can help to illuminate how real the education package is.

The only way your point would be valid is if the CHL didn't actively try to sell kids who would otherwise go to college on their education package. But they do. If they just said that the CHL is the best way to get to the NHL but if you don't make it you'll likely be stuck without a degree to fall back on, then you would be right - it wouldn't be a fair comparison. But that's not how they sell it to the 15 year old kids and their parents who want to give their kid the best chance to realize their dream.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The CHL has created and advertized an education package in an attempt to convince players and their parents that if their professional hockey dreams don't materialize, they can still have their degree paid for by the hockey team. They are doing this specifically in response to more top (first, second round) players choosing the NCAA route. If it turns out that the education package they're selling has all sorts of strings attached that prevent people from using it, then it is definitely a valid topic of discussion. Graduation rates are one metric that can help to illuminate how real the education package is.
.

Strings attached?? There are far fewer strings attached than what is found on your typical NCAA D-1 team. You must be in good academic standing. If you are not then pray tell how could that possibly preclude any D-1 scholarship offer. You must remain a member of the team, meaning you cannot pack your bags and call it a day. Do D-1 team honor scholarhips to those players who have left the team? Scholarships are given out on a year by year basis...the same exact way NCAA packages are distributed.

Yes you lose your scholarship package if you sign a NHL/AHL contract but explain the difference if a undergrad NCAA player signs. Unlike the NCAA, however,the CHL will allow you to play minor pro hockey for up to 18 months before the scholarship package becomes void.

There are several resaons as to why more an more top end Americans are choosing the CHL route over the NCAA every year, the educational scholarship packages is merely one of them.

 

[Puck Swami]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Strings attached?? There are far fewer strings attached than what is found on your typical NCAA D-1 team. .

The Biggest String:

The amount of the CHL package can be limited to the tuition of the college closest to their home.

From a recent article:

“Those education packages have numerous flaws,” (College Hockey Inc President Paul) Kelly said. “If I’m an American kid and I’m done playing up there [CHL] after two years, I want to get an education. I want to go to Notre Dame. Even if you do live in South Bend by chance, they’ll give you only $7,000 a year for two years. If you did that and forewent a full or a half scholarship, you made a bad decision.” [Notre Dame is $50,000 per year or so]

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

jnacc is right. CHL is better than the NCAA in every single way. Only giant ****ing retards play NCAA because the CHL rules! You are all ****tards for not understanding this. Why are you even questioning the CHL? It's so awesome and perfect. It does everything better than the NCAA.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The Biggest String:

The amount of the CHL package can be limited to the tuition of the college closest to their home.

From a recent article:

“Those education packages have numerous flaws,” (College Hockey Inc President Paul) Kelly said. “If I’m an American kid and I’m done playing up there [CHL] after two years, I want to get an education. I want to go to Notre Dame. Even if you do live in South Bend by chance, they’ll give you only $7,000 a year for two years. If you did that and forewent a full or a half scholarship, you made a bad decision.” [Notre Dame is $50,000 per year or so]

Would Paul Kelly care to explain how many of Notre Dame's 12 incoming freshmen are receiving a full scholarship? I doubt he would as only 4 (maybe 5) are. The rest will pay significantly to play there.

A high end player (like say a Cam Fowler or a Tinordi) will be able to negotiate a package that would fairly compensate them for any "loss" of scholarship benefits by choosing to play in the O. Lesser valued players would only be able to gain what their market price is worth. A Garrett Peterson would certainly not be able to claim what Windsor gave to Fowler but he could at least try and negotiate a return of the partial scholarship he would lose by not playing for Notre Dame.

jnacc is right. CHL is better than the NCAA in every single way. Only giant ****ing retards play NCAA because the CHL rules! You are all ****tards for not understanding this. Why are you even questioning the CHL? It's so awesome and perfect. It does everything better than the NCAA.

Hey looks like we have our new resident retard that can't articulate a view point or hold a meaningful conversation....whoops sorry, it's only the well known dirty.

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

I'm on your side. Why are you being mean? The CHL is the best. The NCAA can't compete with its' awesomeness.

 

[moose97]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Would Paul Kelly care to explain how many of Notre Dame's 12 incoming freshmen are receiving a full scholarship? I doubt he would as only 4 (maybe 5) are. The rest will pay significantly to play there.

Simple math ©:

25 roster spots, 18 scholarships. Divide and that's .72 scholarships per kid. Further simple math © - $50,000 x .72 scholarship = $36,000 on average per year.

That doesn't include any merit or need based aid either.

 

[Rich]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Strings attached?? There are far fewer strings attached than what is found on your typical NCAA D-1 team. You must be in good academic standing. If you are not then pray tell how could that possibly preclude any D-1 scholarship offer. You must remain a member of the team, meaning you cannot pack your bags and call it a day.

I don't want to argue the definition of "strings attached", so I'll try to state my point more clearly. The majority of players in the NCAA recieve substantial funding in the form of an academic scholarship. Roughly 75% of the education expenses for the players on each team is paid out. A very high percentage of those players earn a degree that will provide value to them in their careers if they do not make a lifetime living playing hockey. The CHL is trying to promote itself as a league that is not only better for perparing players for the NHL, but is also able to provide comparable education benefits. However, the details do not support that claim. The amounts per year, the number of years, and ability of the benefits to be pulled are what I meant by "strings". Whatever word you want to use it's clear that the benefit that's claimed simply isn't being realized. These kids are being lured in with the promise of an education, and they're not getting that education. NCAA kids are. I'm not worried about the kids who will make the NHL either way - there are very few of them and I'm not debating which way is better to develop a hockey player. The topic here is that for the 9x% of players who won't make a lifetime's worth of money playing hockey, the NCAA is right to tout the benefit of an education.

Even if you leave the money out of it, kids who pay their own way through school still finish with a college degree at the age of 22-25. That's a significant plus to playing college hockey, and one that the NCAA should sell.

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Simple math ©:

25 roster spots, 18 scholarships. Divide and that's .72 scholarships per kid. Further simple math © - $50,000 x .72 scholarship = $36,000 on average per year.

That doesn't include any merit or need based aid either.

Indeed. $7000 for a kid from South Bend is 14% of $50000. Cam Fowler is not getting only a 14% scholarship anywhere.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Simple math ©:

25 roster spots, 18 scholarships. Divide and that's .72 scholarships per kid. Further simple math © - $50,000 x .72 scholarship = $36,000 on average per year.

That doesn't include any merit or need based aid either.

Need based scholarships are irrelevant to this discussion as you do not need to be a hockey player in order to acquire them.

Do you really believe Notre Dame splits it scholarship evenly amongst its players??? Do any D-1 teams? Highly unlikely. BTW, Notre Dame had 27 listed players on their roster last year. 12 incoming freshmen would suggest a high number of listed players for the 10-11 season.

I'm on your side. Why are you being mean? The CHL is the best. The NCAA can't compete with its' awesomeness

Side?...oh no no dirty you are confused. You must step aside as this conversation is beyond your reach or capacity.

 

[moose97]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

These (CHL) kids are being lured in with the promise of an education, and they're not getting that education. NCAA kids are.

That's all you really needed to say.

Need based scholarships are irrelevant to this discussion as you do not need to be a hockey player in order to acquire them.

Typically, I'd agree with you on this point However, since you said:

The rest will pay significantly to play there.

Since most of them will get need or merit based money, it is 100% relevant to this discussion. Especially since, you know, they won't have to pay significantly to play there.

Do you really believe Notre Dame splits it scholarship evenly amongst its players??? Do any D-1 teams? Highly unlikely. BTW, Notre Dame had 27 listed players on their roster last year. 12 incoming freshmen would suggest a high number of listed players for the 10-11 season.

Um, no. That's why I said average scholarship $. You know what an average is, right?

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

That's all you really needed to say.




Since most of them will get need or merit based money, it is 100% relevant to this discussion. Especially since, you know, they won't have to pay significantly to play there.

So in essence, a player could play in the OHL, gather his scholarship once his career is over, go to Notre Dame and tap into need or merit based money thus drastically reducing his tuition to an almost free ride. O.K I suppose it is relevant after all but it does very little to buttress your point of view.

 

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

So in essence, a player could play in the OHL, gather his scholarship once his career is over, go to Notre Dame and tap into need or merit based money thus drastically reducing his tuition to an almost free ride. O.K I suppose it is relevant after all but it does very little to buttress your point of view.

Yes. But if you took out need and merit based aid (yes, I know Rich brought it up), they are still more than likely getting more than $7000 a year...

 

[Rich]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Yes. But if you took out need and merit based aid (yes, I know Rich brought it up), they are still more than likely getting more than $7000 a year...

Huh? I don't remember bringing it up - quote please?