How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

[MinnesotaNorthStar]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Huh? I don't remember bringing it up - quote please?

Didn't you? I know someone did and it wasn't jnacc. Must have misread something somewhere...

 

[Rich]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Didn't you? I know someone did and it wasn't jnacc. Must have misread something somewhere...

Nope.

 

[Hokydad]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

So in essence, a player could play in the OHL, gather his scholarship once his career is over, go to Notre Dame and tap into need or merit based money thus drastically reducing his tuition to an almost free ride. O.K I suppose it is relevant after all but it does very little to buttress your point of view.

exactly

not condoning going to major junior but these people who throw out the 250K to 450K for a 4 year degree are out of touch with reality. Most kids who get th schollys come from honest hard working families and would have paid probably between 10-15K per year, tops. At the same time, the vast, vast majority getb 2 years or less, not 4/4. Absurd to try and pretend that you would compare OHL package to a 4/4. Not close to apples to apples


Get an education, it will always be there.
If you are a top 35-40 nhl pick type, play hockey, go to school after

 

[CHFAN222]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

exactly

not condoning going to major junior but these people who throw out the 250K to 450K for a 4 year degree are out of touch with reality. Most kids who get th schollys come from honest hard working families and would have paid probably between 10-15K per year, tops. At the same time, the vast, vast majority getb 2 years or less, not 4/4. Absurd to try and pretend that you would compare OHL package to a 4/4. Not close to apples to apples


Get an education, it will always be there.
If you are a top 35-40 nhl pick type, play hockey, go to school after

That depends on the school. I know BU, Northeastern, and BC would each be at least 40K+ to anyone when you include room and board and meal plan and BU is probably closer to 45K+ and gives very little financial aid. Compare this to say a MN school with in state and the numbers you gave would be more accurate.

 

[moose97]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Bemidji State is currently ~ $15,000 a year. My wife graduated from NMU 13 years ago with > $20,000 in student loans, and my sister paid ~ $25,000 a year to attend Vanderbilt over 15 years ago (add in tuition + room & board increases and Vandy is now over $52,000 a year ).

All this said, I don't understand how it's even a discussion. Get (even a partial) NCAA scholarship, go to school and get an education and try to play in the NHL. Hey, look at it this way:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=3994262

(I know this is ~ 5 year old, but look at this data) 5% chance of making the NHL? Get an education!

 

[Craig P.]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Perhaps one of these schools would be willing to get a team together, especially if there is a college in Tampa; there's already the Lightning Classic tournament there.

Didn't that tournament go by the wayside when the Lightning management reneged, forcing ND to relocate to the arena in Hoffman Estates IL?

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Didn't that tournament go by the wayside when the Lightning management reneged, forcing ND to relocate to the arena in Hoffman Estates IL?

I'm not sure; alls I know is that RPI participated in the 2007-08 season. I have no recollection as to whether or not the tournament is still being played.

 

[Runninwiththedogs]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Didn't that tournament go by the wayside when the Lightning management reneged, forcing ND to relocate to the arena in Hoffman Estates IL?

I can't remember if it was TB or FLA that effed that up. However, it resulted in me being able to attend, and the players getting to attend the Winter Classic at Wrigley!

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Bemidji State is currently ~ All this said, I don't understand how it's even a discussion. Get (even a partial) NCAA scholarship, go to school and get an education and try to play in the NHL. Hey, look at it this way:

[url]http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=3994262

(I know this is ~ 5 year old, but look at this data) 5% chance of making the NHL? Get an education!

So what is the difference between a "partial" NCAA scholarship and one offered by the CHL??? None really as both routes will require you to pay for a substantial amount of your schooling if you are intent on attending a Notre Dame or a Boston University.

The elite players of course will receive a full ride, whether or not they choose to attend the NCAA or opt for the CHL route. If you or so concerned about a player’s "education" then it should be directed at the minor pro leagues who actively recruit CHL players in order to stock their rosters. You should be saying, stay in school, use your CHL education package, play in the CIS and then go on to the pros if so desired.

Instead you simply bash the CHL...for what? For giving players an opportunity of receiving a paid education if they so desire. For increasing scholarships (and the numbers using them) year after year? For being much more flexible than the NCAA and at least allowing their players to sign minor pro contracts and play for up to 18 months (to experience the life) and then being able to go back to school.

Of course we know the real issue here isn't about "education" but rather the growing number of high end Americans who are choosing the CHL route over the NCAA and the dwindling number of Canadians who are even bothering to look at the NCAA option.

Paul Kelly can beat his chest all he wants, but his impact will be negligible.

 

[Hokydad]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

That depends on the school. I know BU, Northeastern, and BC would each be at least 40K+ to anyone when you include room and board and meal plan and BU is probably closer to 45K+ and gives very little financial aid. Compare this to say a MN school with in state and the numbers you gave would be more accurate.

This is for BU, 09/10
They meet 91% of need, les then 65% apply for thus numbers off.
This is no top of scholarships and awards based on performance. Which is also very high

no one is paying 40K+ to go to BU if they need aid.


Financial Aid Statistics
Full-time freshman enrollment: 4,130
Number who applied for need-based aid: 2,497
Number who were judged to have need: 2,065
Number who were offered aid: 2,063
Number who had full need met: 1,171
Average percent of need met: 91%
Average financial aid package: $35,431
Average need-based loan: $6,331
Average need-based scholarship or grant award: $24,183
Average non-need based aid: $18,862
Average indebtedness at graduation: $30,998

 

[CHFAN222]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

This is for BU, 09/10
They meet 91% of need, les then 65% apply for thus numbers off.
This is no top of scholarships and awards based on performance. Which is also very high

no one is paying 40K+ to go to BU if they need aid.

That is not true. I know plenty of people that are paying 40K+ at BU and need aid. I know some people there right now only in Sophomore year and owe over 30K+ in loans already. Pretty much every private school in the Boston area has students deeply in debt except for Harvard which gives out a ton of aid.

 

[Hokydad]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

That is not true. I know plenty of people that are paying 40K+ at BU and need aid. I know some people there right now only in Sophomore year and owe over 30K+ in loans already. Pretty much every private school in the Boston area has students deeply in debt except for Harvard which gives out a ton of aid.

well call us news first, boston globe second and tell they they are lying.

problem is many parents making combined income of over 200K, 300 to 500K in equity in house etc and want to go for free.

Tough, they are not and have to pay. If they need aid, they are full of crap

Thats why the schools have agencies outside the schools calculate it

"needing" aid is arelative phrase.

Show one article that is unbiased that backs your point. None exist because it is not true. Problem is eevryone, regardless of situation wants free money

 

[Rich]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Instead you simply bash the CHL...for what? For giving players an opportunity of receiving a paid education if they so desire. For increasing scholarships (and the numbers using them) year after year? For being much more flexible than the NCAA and at least allowing their players to sign minor pro contracts and play for up to 18 months (to experience the life) and then being able to go back to school.

Of course we know the real issue here isn't about "education" but rather the growing number of high end Americans who are choosing the CHL route over the NCAA and the dwindling number of Canadians who are even bothering to look at the NCAA option.

jnacc, I'm not sure I understand why you continue to build strawman arguments. No one is bashing the CHL. The arguments that most people here seem to be making is that in reality, very few CHL players take advantage of the education package. Even fewer graduate. Essentially all NCAA players "take advantage" of the opportunity to get an education, and a majority (over 90%, I think) graduate with a Bachelor's degree. The real issue here absolutely is education. NCAA kids get an education. CHL players don't, in general. The payout rate is around 18% in the CHL, while it's close to 100% in college. The Kitchener Rangers expect to pay out about $72k this year. CC (the school I follow) will pay out somewhere in the neighborhood of $45k*18=$810k. Even a state school that charges $15k a year would pay out about $270k per year.

But the money is secondary. The hoops that each organization makes players jump through is irrelevent. The absolute bottom line, as I see it, is that the CHL is making a big deal of convincing kids that they can get the best of both worlds - hockey that will prepare them for the NHL and a college degree if they don't make it. That's their story. The absolute reality, no matter how you want to spin it, is that simply doesn't happen for the majority of CHL players. If you want great hockey AND you want an education, NCAA hockey is the right choice.

That's not to say that the CHL is a bad choice or to bash the CHL. For the first-round NHL draft picks - the CHL may be the best choice. For guys who don't want to go to college - the CHL may be the best choice. However, for a kid who really wants to play hockey at the highest level AND ALSO wants an education, just look at the number of players who earn their degree playing in the NCAA vs. the number who earn their degree after playing in the CHL.

 

[moose97]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

jnacc, I'm not sure I understand why you continue to build strawman arguments. No one is bashing the CHL. The arguments that most people here seem to be making is that in reality, very few CHL players take advantage of the education package. Even fewer graduate. Essentially all NCAA players "take advantage" of the opportunity to get an education, and a majority (over 90%, I think) graduate with a Bachelor's degree. The real issue here absolutely is education. NCAA kids get an education. CHL players don't, in general. The payout rate is around 18% in the CHL, while it's close to 100% in college. The Kitchener Rangers expect to pay out about $72k this year. CC (the school I follow) will pay out somewhere in the neighborhood of $45k*18=$810k. Even a state school that charges $15k a year would pay out about $270k per year.

But the money is secondary. The hoops that each organization makes players jump through is irrelevent. The absolute bottom line, as I see it, is that the CHL is making a big deal of convincing kids that they can get the best of both worlds - hockey that will prepare them for the NHL and a college degree if they don't make it. That's their story. The absolute reality, no matter how you want to spin it, is that simply doesn't happen for the majority of CHL players. If you want great hockey AND you want an education, NCAA hockey is the right choice.

That's not to say that the CHL is a bad choice or to bash the CHL. For the first-round NHL draft picks - the CHL may be the best choice. For guys who don't want to go to college - the CHL may be the best choice. However, for a kid who really wants to play hockey at the highest level AND ALSO wants an education, just look at the number of players who earn their degree playing in the NCAA vs. the number who earn their degree after playing in the CHL.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

jnacc, I'm not sure I understand why you continue to build strawman arguments. No one is bashing the CHL. The arguments that most people here seem to be making is that in reality, very few CHL players take advantage of the education package. Even fewer graduate.

There were hundreds of former CHL players in the CIS last year, having their school paid for by their former CHL clubs. So please stop saying very few take advantage of the packages. Secondly, how do you know "even fewer" graduate? Where are your sources?

The Kitchener Rangers expect to pay out about $72k this year. CC (the school I follow) will pay out somewhere in the neighborhood of $45k*18=$810k. Even a state school that charges $15k a year would pay out about $270k per year.

All the more pity for us that we are being fleeced by our higher Ed institutions for increasingly less relevant degrees. Props to the Canadians for keeping their costs down, where 7000k is more than enough to cover a year of schooling. What would you have Kitchener say...."hey I know they are being over charged in Colorado so here's an extra 10K to make you feel better"...PLEASE!

The absolute bottom line, as I see it, is that the CHL is making a big deal of convincing kids that they can get the best of both worlds - hockey that will prepare them for the NHL and a college degree if they don't make it. That's their story. The absolute reality, no matter how you want to spin it, is that simply doesn't happen for the majority of CHL players. If you want great hockey AND you want an education, NCAA hockey is the right choice

First off you place far too much importance on a general degree. Tell me, who will earn more over a life time...sociology major (or English, History, General Business, General Studies...you get the point here) or a person who goes to a tech school to become vocationally certified? The reality is that simply having an "education" is not enough anymore. It is about having the right education. One is not a failure because he does not go to a 4 year degree granting institution to collect a liberal arts degree, one may be more of a success because he chose a field more in tuned with his aptitudes and one more relevant to the modern job market. Tell me,(or ask Paul Kelly for me), how many current NCAA players are enrolled in health related programs(not including exercise Science and the like), Engineering majors, Computer Sciences or the hard core Sciences? I'll bet you that the number is very very low!

The reality is that the CHL does indeed offer educational packages. The fact of the matter is that more and more CHL players are tapping into them. This is having a very detrimental impact on the recruiting practices of the NCAA. Sure the NCAA can jump and scream and speculate that the CHL education practices are a scam but it will not change the reality nor will it help in an increasingly losing battle against the CHL.

 

[Dirty]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The CHL will soon take over the NHL as the best league(s) in the world. Not only are the players better, but they get a real education not just some silly degree from an American University.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

The CHL will soon take over the NHL as the best league(s) in the world. Not only are the players better, but they get a real education not just some silly degree from an American University.

Now now little dirty....North Dakota is not a silly little school in the middle of a prairie!

 

[GreatLakerMohawk]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

Didn't that tournament go by the wayside when the Lightning management reneged, forcing ND to relocate to the arena in Hoffman Estates IL?

I can't remember if it was TB or FLA that effed that up. However, it resulted in me being able to attend, and the players getting to attend the Winter Classic at Wrigley!

It was then Lightning owners Oren Koules and Len Barrie that scuttled that tournament.

 

[Rich]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

There were hundreds of former CHL players in the CIS last year, having their school paid for by their former CHL clubs. So please stop saying very few take advantage of the packages. Secondly, how do you know "even fewer" graduate? Where are your sources?



All the more pity for us that we are being fleeced by our higher Ed institutions for increasingly less relevant degrees. Props to the Canadians for keeping their costs down, where 7000k is more than enough to cover a year of schooling. What would you have Kitchener say...."hey I know they are being over charged in Colorado so here's an extra 10K to make you feel better"...PLEASE!



First off you place far too much importance on a general degree. Tell me, who will earn more over a life time...sociology major (or English, History, General Business, General Studies...you get the point here) or a person who goes to a tech school to become vocationally certified? The reality is that simply having an "education" is not enough anymore. It is about having the right education. One is not a failure because he does not go to a 4 year degree granting institution to collect a liberal arts degree, one may be more of a success because he chose a field more in tuned with his aptitudes and one more relevant to the modern job market. Tell me,(or ask Paul Kelly for me), how many current NCAA players are enrolled in health related programs(not including exercise Science and the like), Engineering majors, Computer Sciences or the hard core Sciences? I'll bet you that the number is very very low!

The reality is that the CHL does indeed offer educational packages. The fact of the matter is that more and more CHL players are tapping into them. This is having a very detrimental impact on the recruiting practices of the NCAA. Sure the NCAA can jump and scream and speculate that the CHL education practices are a scam but it will not change the reality nor will it help in an increasingly losing battle against the CHL.

You're making strawman arguments again. Where in the world did I place an emphasis on a general degree or anything else? That's totally irrelevent in this discussion. The point is simple, and one that you have yet to address. The CHL is advertizing itself as a place to play hockey and get a degree. However, that doesn't happen. You're also putting together a strawman argument about the costs. I have no idea where you got your 7,000k number. CC has consistently been ranked as one of the "best value" colleges in the U.S. despite its high cost. But again, the issue isn't whether or not it's worth it. That's totally irrelevent. The issue is that NCAA players get a degree, CHL players generally do not. Source? http://news.therecord.com/article/645999
You again bring up a "losing" battle. What started the battle? I don't remember exactly when it was so don't get all upset about the dates - but a few decades ago the CHL absolutely was the path to the NHL - period. The growth of Europeans changed that a bit, and then around a decade ago the NCAA path became much more viable. A surge in first and second round draft picks put the NCAA close to on par with the CHL as a path to a high draft selection. The CHL countered with the education packages. We now are seeing the results - the education packages are not being used by a majority of players but they are drawing hockey players away from the NCAA. The NCAA is pointing out - correctly - that if you really want an education and to develop as a hockey player, the NCAA is the right place to do so.

But again, the origin of this is irrelevent. NCAA kids get an education. You can say that education is worthless, that's irrelevent to the discussion. The CHL is making a claim. That claim isn't supported by the facts. Your refusal to even discuss the issue is telling.

 

[jnacc]

Re: How College Hockey Inc. sells our game vs Major Junior...

You're making strawman arguments again. Where in the world did I place an emphasis on a general degree or anything else? That's totally irrelevent in this discussion. The point is simple, and one that you have yet to address. The CHL is advertizing itself as a place to play hockey and get a degree. However, that doesn't happen. .

Your source is dubious at best....where did this reporter gather his sources? Answer...he had none. Yes, the mere fact (no straw here just fact) is that the OHL gave out hundreds of scholarships last year alone so yes, you can play in the CHL and earn a degree....it can and does happen and the CHL has every right to advertise as such. Do the majority of players take advantage of the scholarship packages? Not yet, but the trend line is going up and soon you will probably see almost half of the players accept them. The CHL of course is not the NCAA, as it is one of the premier feeders of players to the NHL and other higher pro leagues. So it cannot be viewed as a failure simply because 80% of their players do not earn degrees (allegedly of course as there are no real sources)

Here's a breakdown of the 2005 Kitchener Rangers Team

Players that went on to taste the NHL (and certainly earn enough money just from signing bonuses alone to pay for an education at Notre Dame if they so desired) - 7

Players that signed AHL/European Contracts (salaries of 60-100K per year...more than enough to save for an education...even at Notre Dame) - 5

Players that went on to play in the CIS and continued with their education - 8

Players who only played in the ECHL and left walked away from their scholarship packages - 4

Players who did not play after their OHL careers but still had a scholarship package - 5

So out of 29 players who drifted in and out of the Kitchener Rangers organization in 2005, only 4 walked away with very little. The rest either were able to earn enough money to secure their education or tapped into their scholarship packages.

This is why Paul Kelly will have a negligible effect.