Hobey hat trick

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Hobey hat trick

The front page article states he was a finalist.

My vote goes to Geoffrion, though.

http://www.hockeyhumanitarian.org/
Wouldn't be the first time they got something wrong. He is listed as one of the 18 nominees, not one of the 7 finalists.

 

[C-H-C]

Re: Hobey hat trick

I put this in a UNH thread but copied it in here:

My understanding is the winner has already been picked. Unless it has changed they pick the winner out of the 10 and announce the top 3 as the hat trick.

However, if I was a voter breaking down these three...

I would first eliminate Nyquist. Fantastic player but not even the player of the year in his own league, and Butler was. If the coaches in hockey east picked Butler as the best player this year how can Nyquist be the best player overall?

That leaves me Butler vs. Geoffrion

Captain - tie
Goals - Butler (29 to 27)
Assists - Butler (24 to 21)
Penalties - Butler (20 min to 56 min)
Made it further in the tournament - Geoffrion
Better team - Butler (as Wisco is clearly more talented so Butler did more with more attention)
Better League - Geoffrion (although each got 1 team to the F4, I think WCHA was better competition this year, hold Geoffrion’s number down)
Grades - No Clue call it a tie (I know Butler has done well no idea on Geoffrion or what the majors are)
PK - Both are out there in tough times - tie
All Around Play - both all around forwards 2-way players - tie
Face-offs - Geoffrion (guy is silly good in the faceoff circle)
Off Ice - Butler (Hockey Humanitarian top 10 finalist)

So with that all I can think of, I would give it to Butler.

Also against Geoffrion was Smith in the top 10. Did Smith take votes away?

Finally I wouldn't hold not getting WCHA POTY against Geoffrion, it doesn't help him but with a goalie getting it, it doesn't hurt him either. IMO. I see it as a killer for Nyquist head to head with Butler.

Butler's off ice finalist for hockey humanitarian is what in my book puts him over the top as everything else is fairly even.

A useful breakdown.

For what it's worth, since Jason Krog won the Hobey Baker in 1999, there have been only two players to win it when their team was not in the Frozen Four:
2003 Peter Sejna
2006 Matt Carle

 

[AMC]

Re: Hobey hat trick

I would first eliminate Nyquist. Fantastic player but not even the player of the year in his own league, and Butler was. If the coaches in hockey east picked Butler as the best player this year how can Nyquist be the best player overall?

That's a crap argument, as Nyquist was unanimous first team all conference and Butler was not. The general consensus is that Butler was PotY because he is a senior.

 

[slurpees]

Re: Hobey hat trick

I would first eliminate Nyquist. Fantastic player but not even the player of the year in his own league, and Butler was. If the coaches in hockey east picked Butler as the best player this year how can Nyquist be the best player overall?

And the 2009 HE player of the year was...............

NOT Matt Gilroy! I suppose you think Thiessen should've won the Hobey instead too?

You fail.

 

[thecomicbookguy]

Re: Hobey hat trick

That's a crap argument, as Nyquist was unanimous first team all conference and Butler was not. The general consensus is that Butler was PotY because he is a senior.

From people in the know, or just HE fans who wanted to see someone other than Butler?

For the record, I don't like the "Nyquist wasn't POTY, so he loses to Butler" argument, either, but to say Butler only won the award because he's a senior also sounds a little ridiculous.

 

[JB]

Re: Hobey hat trick

And the 2009 HE player of the year was...............

NOT Matt Gilroy! I suppose you think Thiessen should've won the Hobey instead too?

You fail.

You seem to lack basic reading comprehension. Look at my comment ref Geoffrion and the WCHA. Geoffrion wasn't POTY in the WCHA but in my mind it doesn't hurt him as he lost to a goalie not another forward. I clear stated that, second to last paragraph. How can you be the best forward in the country and lose POTY in your own conference to another forward? IMO there aren’t enough non-conference games to do that.

Honestly I don't think Thessen should've been POTY in hockey east last year. There were clearly better players (particularly on BU).

Also I didn't say how it would go I said how I would vote.

So let’s hear your logic, I put my argument out there what is yours.

Otherwise you are just a jack***** and in that case who really fails?

 

[Carmine Scarpaglia]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Honestly I don't think Thessen should've been POTY in hockey east last year. There were clearly better players (particularly on BU).

So...... you admit you don't agree with last year's voting, but use this year's voting on POTY awards as a reason to state that a player from YOUR team is better than someone else?

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Hobey hat trick

You seem to lack basic reading comprehension. Look at my comment ref Geoffrion and the WCHA. Geoffrion wasn't POTY in the WCHA but in my mind it doesn't hurt him as he lost to a goalie not another forward. I clear stated that, second to last paragraph. How can you be the best forward in the country and lose POTY in your own conference to another forward? IMO there aren’t enough non-conference games to do that.

Honestly I don't think Thessen should've been POTY in hockey east last year. There were clearly better players (particularly on BU).

Also I didn't say how it would go I said how I would vote.

So let’s hear your logic, I put my argument out there what is yours.

Otherwise you are just a jack***** and in that case who really fails?

First off let's remember this technically is not the Heiseman Trophy of Hockey...it supposedly takes into account more than just the on ice aspects...POTY awards and All-Conference teams are suppose to be about the conference games...not the whole season. Just sayin'

 

[UWBadgerHockey]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Probably biased, but I think Geoffrion should win as well. He is the captain and leader on this team, great at winning faceoffs, solid on the PP, he really does it all.

I also agree with whoever said Smith isn't the best defenseman on the Badgers. I really like him and he has been huge for us, but McDonagh has been extremely solid, but since he doesn't score nearly as much as Smith he isn't talked about like Brendan is.

 

[JB]

Re: Hobey hat trick

So...... you admit you don't agree with last year's voting, but use this year's voting on POTY awards as a reason to state that a player from YOUR team is better than someone else?

Apparently you can't read either. I am not sure if I should be surprised by that or not.

If I had a vote and it was between these 3 this is the logic I would use. I didn't say this is how the vote would go.

If like years past it was 10 then 1 but they just announced the final 3 to have them there for the presentation and I really did vote, I would have needed to do more research on players like Oliver who I never saw play. I saw all these guys play several times.

Last year I didn't look as deeply into it as this year because there wasn't a UNH guy in it. When I heard who the final 3 were I would have picked Wilson for no reason other than I liked his play and impact.

 

[slurpees]

Re: Hobey hat trick

You seem to lack basic reading comprehension. Look at my comment ref Geoffrion and the WCHA. Geoffrion wasn't POTY in the WCHA but in my mind it doesn't hurt him as he lost to a goalie not another forward. I clear stated that, second to last paragraph. How can you be the best forward in the country and lose POTY in your own conference to another forward? IMO there aren’t enough non-conference games to do that.

Honestly I don't think Thessen should've been POTY in hockey east last year. There were clearly better players (particularly on BU).

Also I didn't say how it would go I said how I would vote.

So let’s hear your logic, I put my argument out there what is yours.

Otherwise you are just a jack***** and in that case who really fails?

No, there's no reading comprehension problems here.

First, you say Nyqvist shouldn't win b/c he's not the best "player" in his league, how can he be the best overall "player" - you made no distinction of position.

Next, yet you don't hold the same standard to the Wisc player who lost out to a goalie (who is not in the hat trick).

Then, you claim to me that he's not the best forward in his own conference, and therefore can't be best forward in the country.

Now you're arguing about positions. By the same logic, how can you be the best player in the country if you lose conference POY to a guy not in the hat trick? I don't necessarily believe that, but the logic is the same.

Finally, you purport that you disagree with last year's voting, but then use that same vote one year later to disqualify one player. When called out on this, you respond by compounding carmine's point, saying this is merely your logic for this year's vote. But apparently, your logic would be the opposite last year because you disagreed with that vote for HE POY. Then finally you plead ignorance on last year because there wasn't a UNH guy in it.

Cliff Notes:
Logic for 2010, POY vote disqualifies Player #1 because he lost that award to Player #2. But POY vote in another conference doesn't disqualify Player #3, even thought he lost it to Player #NotInHatTrick because they're different positions. But in 2009, the POY was not a valid merit to compare those 3 players because you disagree with it.

Nope.

 

[Carmine Scarpaglia]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Apparently you can't read either. I am not sure if I should be surprised by that or not.

If I had a vote and it was between these 3 this is the logic I would use. I didn't say this is how the vote would go.

It's got nothing to do with reading, hillbilly. I read the whole thing perfectly.

It's got to do with the flawed logic.

In this imaginary world where you are a Hobey voter, you use conference POTY as a criterion for comparison. Do you not? And you also indicate that since you are close to the HE action, you don't agree with how the voting turned out last year and have an opinion of your own on this award. So if you don't agree with what others are doing in regards to conference POTY honors, wouldn't you prefer to use who you think is the POTY rather than who everyone else voted as POTY?

It's like saying your math teacher told you that 2+2=5 but you have your own opinion and think that teacher is wrong. But when that same teacher told me that 3+3=7, you believed that person because the teacher was very credible in your prior dealings with them.

Nice hillbilly logic!!!

 

[Terrier520]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Congrats to all three. Class acts!

 

[thecomicbookguy]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Probably biased, but I think Geoffrion should win as well. He is the captain and leader on this team, great at winning faceoffs, solid on the PP, he really does it all.

Let's try a couple of experiments.

Experiment 1:
Probably biased, but I think Butler should win as well. He is the captain and leader on this team, great at winning faceoffs, solid on the PP, he really does it all.

Experiment 2:
Probably biased, but I think Nyquist should win as well. He is <strike>the captain and</strike> a leader on this team, great at winning faceoffs, solid on the PP, he really does it all.

Experiment 1 works fine. Experiment 2 seems to work with a minor modification.

Three-way tie?

I'm just happy that after all of the "how can you put Butler in the HHT ahead of Nyquist???" talk around here, the voters simply put them both in there.

 

[Zudnic]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Congratulations in advance to Geoffrion.

The calculus here is simple. Nyquist is great but not so great that he can win as a sophomore. Butler did OK in the postseason, but in the end his team tanked in the HE quarters vs Vermont and again to RIT. Geoffrion is a senior on a team that is peaking at the right time, and is 2nd in the country in goals, just two behind Butler. That Cheverie won POTY isn't relevant; DU tanked. Also, if the old adage holds true, Nyquist and Butler will split the eastern vote.

Although I am pulling for Butler since he is a public school kid and a Humanitarian finalist, I'd be shocked if Geoffrion didn't get it.

Disclaimer: the above is my thought on what I think WILL happen. Not necessarily what I think SHOULD happen.

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Hobey hat trick

When did they hold the vote? If it was before the hat trick was announced, is vote splitting really an issue?

 

[Carmine Scarpaglia]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Also, if the old adage holds true, Nyquist and Butler will split the eastern vote.

Although I am pulling for Butler since he is a public school kid and a Humanitarian finalist, I'd be shocked if Geoffrion didn't get it.

While they could split the eastern vote, they were the only two eastern candidates. The rest of the entire field that was a legit contender was from the west. So they were really splitting the votes more I'd say. I don't know how it breaks down east vs. west for # of voters, or even if every voter on average votes for someone in their region, but assuming all that, you'd have to think the eastern kids are in good shape.

All that being said, I think voters have been burned too many times by not picking a guy in the FF and then having him kick tail (Gerbe, Collins). Additionally, last year they had a guy in the FF and he did well. Maybe they are keeping an eye on that and put a bit greater value on that recently, which could give Geoffrion the edge.

I think Nyquist is at a big disadvantage right or wrong because he's a sophomore.

Would love to see Butler get it. As you said public HS kid from Mass. Tough not to root for. Plus a few guys on my team played with him in HS and they can vouch for the kid being top notch.

 

[HCSmooth]

Re: Hobey hat trick

Although I am pulling for Butler since he is a public school kid and a Humanitarian finalist, I'd be shocked if Geoffrion didn't get it.

Disclaimer: the above is my thought on what I think WILL happen. Not necessarily what I think SHOULD happen.

It's hard to say that something should happen in this case. Really, aren't we just splitting hairs between the 3 at this point?? It's not like making a case for a goalie vs. a D-man vs. a Forward.

We all have our biases, but you can't make an unbiased or compelling argument that one of these guys shouldn't win it, or that one should win it over another. My bias is clear...I'm a Badgers fan and hope Blake wins it because I see each game what he brings to the table. I stand by the opinion that he's probably the best all-around player of the trio. But to each their own.

 

[get a grip]

Re: Hobey hat trick

I put this in a UNH thread but copied it in here:

My understanding is the winner has already been picked. Unless it has changed they pick the winner out of the 10 and announce the top 3 as the hat trick.

However, if I was a voter breaking down these three...

I would first eliminate Nyquist. Fantastic player but not even the player of the year in his own league, and Butler was. If the coaches in hockey east picked Butler as the best player this year how can Nyquist be the best player overall?

That leaves me Butler vs. Geoffrion

Captain - tie
Goals - Butler (29 to 27)
Assists - Butler (24 to 21)
Penalties - Butler (20 min to 56 min)
Made it further in the tournament - Geoffrion
Better team - Butler (as Wisco is clearly more talented so Butler did more with more attention)
Better League - Geoffrion (although each got 1 team to the F4, I think WCHA was better competition this year, hold Geoffrion’s number down)
Grades - No Clue call it a tie (I know Butler has done well no idea on Geoffrion or what the majors are)
PK - Both are out there in tough times - tie
All Around Play - both all around forwards 2-way players - tie
Face-offs - Geoffrion (guy is silly good in the faceoff circle)
Off Ice - Butler (Hockey Humanitarian top 10 finalist)

So with that all I can think of, I would give it to Butler.

Also against Geoffrion was Smith in the top 10. Did Smith take votes away?

Finally I wouldn't hold not getting WCHA POTY against Geoffrion, it doesn't help him but with a goalie getting it, it doesn't hurt him either. IMO. I see it as a killer for Nyquist head to head with Butler.

Butler's off ice finalist for hockey humanitarian is what in my book puts him over the top as everything else is fairly even.

I don't post often but am around the game enough to know what is going on, and from what I am reading, you have no idea what is going on. you are all stats in your comparison. When is the last time you saw Wisco Play? Interesting, not this year(live) I bet. Some other comments about Smith being a better player, well some games he is but the fact of the matter is that Wisco lives and dies with BG. He is a great all round player that can hurt you in many different ways. Dirty at times, but very smart about it. If I were to build a program, besides a goalie, he would be my next ingredient.

I lived in New England for 9 years and now have the opportunity to watch the best league from top to bottom in the country. There is no comparison. It probably should be St. Cloud and Wisco in the Frozen Four, but the committee doesn't want the rest of the country to be left out.

Although, I do have to give a shout out to the Tigers. Wills, Hillsy, great job, looking forward to the games.

 

[JB]

Re: Hobey hat trick

No, there's no reading comprehension problems here.

Yup you clearly read the entire thing and understood.


Lets try this who would you vote for and WHY! I am still waiting.