Gaza 2023: The Next Episode

[Russell Jaslow]

The chasm in the logics steps here is enough to make the Grand Canyon blush.

Again, prove me wrong. You haven't laid out any proof to refute me.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...er/ar-AA1o3v9X

"It alleges that after the terrorist strikes in Israel, the US-based radical groups released a “toolkit” to students groups to “justify the terrorism of Hamas and its affiliates in Gaza.”"

"This was the aftermath of the Hamas attack on the Nova festival. But survivors of the Oct. 7 atrocity allege that the very next day, SJP told its campus chapters that Hamas’s “resistance” was justified."

"Jason Torchinsky, of law firm Holtzman Vogel, who is one of the lawyers bringing the suit, said, “Chaos we are seeing at American colleges and universities has been well planned and organized, and National SJP’s work to support the end goals of Hamas needs to be exposed and stopped.”"

 

[Kepler]

The fantasy there are large and effective astro-turfed protests against Israel in a country where the political class is in abject terror of AIPAC shows a complete disconnect from the way politics works in the US.

There are definitely anti-Israeli and even anti-Jewish organizations that operate around the world. Some of them even have tendrils in the US. But for the last 50 years, criticizing Israel in public has been a political death sentence, and challenging their unending gravy-train of taxpayer-funded death toys has been a way to get both the Democrats (donors) and Republicans (weapons manufacturers) going through your trash for evidence of communism, terrorism, pedophilia, or whatever else sells that week.

Likud has DC in a headlock. Principled protest against the Likud genocide of Palestinians is just a normal response by human beings who don't like child murder. The same human beings who were appalled at the same cynical strategy of Hamas: "nobody on the other side is innocent; everyone under the wrong flag must be killed."

It is not Israel vs Palestine. It is Likud and Hamas vs the people of Israel and Palestine.

 

[MichVandal]

Can't there be a position where you are pro Jewish, even pro Jewish state, but against how this is being handled and against the current leaders of Israel?

The opposite is very much true in this country, and it rarely gets much coverage- the right are very, very much anti Jew- they are some of the most anti-Semites around. But they will support Israel pretty blindly. Probably because the leaders make a ton of money selling arms to Israel....

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Israel's intel group had multiple signs that the original assault was going to happen, but did nothing about it. It's not as if Israel hasn't pre-empted anything with violence or other attacks before.

Is the assumption that anyone who isn't Jewish and is caught behind the lines and are suffering are automatically Hamas?

 

[MichVandal]

Again, prove me wrong. You haven't laid out any proof to refute me.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...er/ar-AA1o3v9X

"It alleges that after the terrorist strikes in Israel, the US-based radical groups released a “toolkit” to students groups to “justify the terrorism of Hamas and its affiliates in Gaza.”"

"This was the aftermath of the Hamas attack on the Nova festival. But survivors of the Oct. 7 atrocity allege that the very next day, SJP told its campus chapters that Hamas’s “resistance” was justified."

"Jason Torchinsky, of law firm Holtzman Vogel, who is one of the lawyers bringing the suit, said, “Chaos we are seeing at American colleges and universities has been well planned and organized, and National SJP’s work to support the end goals of Hamas needs to be exposed and stopped.”"

I'm sorry, but that's a pretty massive jump from Hamas trying to organize some protests to assume that every single protester is pro Hamas.

Again, the largest anti-Semite groups in the US are some of the most ardent supporters of Israel.

 

[Drew S.]

Can't there be a position where you are pro Jewish, even pro Jewish state, but against how this is being handled and against the current leaders of Israel?

The opposite is very much true in this country, and it rarely gets much coverage- the right are very, very much anti Jew- they are some of the most anti-Semites around. But they will support Israel pretty blindly. Probably because the leaders make a ton of money selling arms to Israel....

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Israel's intel group had multiple signs that the original assault was going to happen, but did nothing about it. It's not as if Israel hasn't pre-empted anything with violence or other attacks before.

Is the assumption that anyone who isn't Jewish and is caught behind the lines and are suffering are automatically Hamas?

100% this. I support the regular people on each side and loath the rulers/government/whatever you want to call it.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Can't there be a position where you are pro Jewish, even pro Jewish state, but against how this is being handled and against the current leaders of Israel?

Yes. But I also maintain that no matter the Israeli government, the reaction would be the same. And that's my main point. Using the current Israeli government as a "excuse" (whch Kep does all the time) to be okay with anti-israel and antisemitism is just a way to justify many closet antisemites.

The opposite is very much true in this country, and it rarely gets much coverage- the right are very, very much anti Jew- they are some of the most anti-Semites around. But they will support Israel pretty blindly. Probably because the leaders make a ton of money selling arms to Israel....

No. It has to do with belief of the rapture. Seriously. Look up why evangelicals support Israel. BTW, they are the second biggest donor base to Israel (behind U.S. reform Jews).

Is the assumption that anyone who isn't Jewish and is caught behind the lines and are suffering are automatically Hamas?

Of course not. But Hamas doesn't care about their own people. That's something the world has to understand.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

I'm sorry, but that's a pretty massive jump from Hamas trying to organize some protests to assume that every single protester is pro Hamas.

I didn't mean to make that assumption. What I originally said is the protesters are "duped" into being proxy Hamas soldiers. Sure, they may not actually support Hamas, but it appears from those allegations that Hamas was very involved in getting those protests up and running. Just look at the bit about Columbia -- ground zero for the SPJ's (with Hamas money) support of starting protests and the first and most radical protests to occur at any school. Anyone who was roped into supporting these protests, obviously not knowing Hamas was behind them, was duped into doing Hamas' bidding. So, I stand behind what I keep saying.

 

[MichVandal]

No. It has to do with belief of the rapture. Seriously. Look up why evangelicals support Israel. BTW, they are the second biggest donor base to Israel (behind U.S. reform Jews).

Again, look who the biggest anti-Semites in the US generally vote for. And as far as I can see, being anti-Semitic AND pro Israel is exactly what happens in the US. I absolutely and utterly don't trust evangelicals. Just look at what they worship in people who are just humans. Sorry.

At this point, I would not even think that evangelicals are even Christian anymore, as a whole. They use Christianity as a weapon.

Maybe I'm missing something. But people like the KKK do actually vote for the right, and they are anti-Semites. As far as I can tell, they support Israel because they are on the front line in suppressing people they hate even more. Or at least they are told they do.

 

[MichVandal]

I didn't mean to make that assumption. What I originally said is the protesters are "duped" into being proxy Hamas soldiers. Sure, they may not actually support Hamas, but it appears from those allegations that Hamas was very involved in getting those protests up and running. Just look at the bit about Columbia -- ground zero for the SPJ's (with Hamas money) support of starting protests and the first and most radical protests to occur at any school. Anyone who was roped into supporting these protests, obviously not knowing Hamas was behind them, was duped into doing Hamas' bidding. So, I stand behind what I keep saying.

So people who actually want other people to be treated like humans are being duped into thinking that way?

I'm fine with going after Hamas and actually trying to get them. But much of the protest is how people who just want to have a job, kids, and a reasonably secure life are being caught in the middle in the worst way.

I tire of anyone who calls people critical of Israel as anti-Semite. As far as I'm concerned, that's just being lazy and not wanting to address people's concerns. And given how they are being labeled as such, it makes sense to me that they got tired of it.

Sure, Hamas wants to continue what Hitler did. But does that make all of Israel's reactions justified? Especially if they had intel about the original attack, and just let it happen. 79 years ago about now, Hitler committed suicide after slaughtering MILLIONS of Jews for the sake of who they were. And when you examine how he ran the war, it was 1000% about murdering Jews first, russians second, and many many others. We don't need more of that regardless of the group.

 

[psych]

Yes. But I also maintain that no matter the Israeli government, the reaction would be the same. And that's my main point. Using the current Israeli government as a "excuse" (whch Kep does all the time) to be okay with anti-israel and antisemitism is just a way to justify many closet antisemites.



No. It has to do with belief of the rapture. Seriously. Look up why evangelicals support Israel. BTW, they are the second biggest donor base to Israel (behind U.S. reform Jews).



Of course not. But Hamas doesn't care about their own people. That's something the world has to understand.

Your main point is crap. Netanyahu obviously never watched The West Wing, otherwise he would have learned that ordering his military to carpet-bomb and starve millions of innocent people isn’t a “proportional response” to Hamas’ initial atrocities. The IDF has been destroying entire countries’ militaries, often at the same time, for decades now. There were other ways to eliminate Hamas. Netanyahu and his government chose this option, knowing full well the consequences…

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Again, look who the biggest anti-Semites in the US generally vote for. And as far as I can see, being anti-Semitic AND pro Israel is exactly what happens in the US. I absolutely and utterly don't trust evangelicals. Just look at what they worship in people who are just humans. Sorry.

I think we kind of saying the same thing. Evangelicals don't support Israel because they like Jews, they support Israel because they believe Israel has to exist as a precondition for the rapture.

Maybe I'm missing something. But people like the KKK do actually vote for the right, and they are anti-Semites. As far as I can tell, they support Israel because they are on the front line in suppressing people they hate even more. Or at least they are told they do.

I really doubt that's why anti-semites support Israel. And people accuse me of stretching my point...

 

[Russell Jaslow]

Your main point is crap. Netanyahu obviously never watched The West Wing, otherwise he would have learned that ordering his military to carpet-bomb and starve millions of innocent people isn’t a “proportional response” to Hamas’ initial atrocities. The IDF has been destroying entire countries’ militaries, often at the same time, for decades now. There were other ways to eliminate Hamas. Netanyahu and his government chose this option, knowing full well the consequences…

Your point and my point are not mutually exclusive.

No matter what government was in power on October 7, the response would have been pretty much what we are seeing now. I'm convinced of that. I've studied Israel my whole life. I spent a whole summer there. You don't understand the feelings (and quite frankly, some of those feelings are not nice) the common Israeli citizen has and what they expect from whatever government is in power. The retribution after October 7 would have been at a similar scale, no matter the government.

But that doesn't disprove your point either.

And speaking of destroying other countries, educate yourself. Research Black September. Research the collapse of Lebanon after Black September (and the treatment of Lebanese Christians by the PLO). There is a reason why Arab countries no longer want anything to do with Palestinians and their terrorist groups. Why do you think Egypt refuses to open their Gaza border, which could save thousands? Why do you think Saudi Arabia is still going ahead with normalizing relations with Israel? Palestine is old news for these Arab countries. They don't give a crap anymore. Yet, there is no criticism aimed at them. (And I'm not even going to get into the question of what Jordan did, or more accurately did not do, when they occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967.)

 

[Russell Jaslow]

So people who actually want other people to be treated like humans are being duped into thinking that way?

And what I'm saying is this all plays into Hamas' hands. No matter how right some of those protestors are.

 

[MichVandal]

And what I'm saying is this all plays into Hamas' hands. No matter how right some of those protestors are.

So damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'll accept protesters who want humans to be treated humanely.

And, IMHO, Hamas is just saying that for effect. Has it actually helped them? If people get their way, Israel will leave ordinary people more alone and then focus on Hamas. One thing for sure, labeling all protesters anti-Semite is pretty pointless. And also falls into Hamas' hands in the attempt to pull people apart.

Having watched WWII in real time for the past 6 years, one thing I've learned for sure- it RARELY helps you effort to attack and kill normal people. Almost never. Didn't help Germany during the blitz, didn't help the Allies when they firebombed Dresden. For the most part, it's incredibly counter productive.

 

[Slap Shot]

My kids witnessed the protests at UM up close. I asked them about the "pro-Hamas" contingent and both said it was non-exustent. I am sure it's out there but it's fringe.

I mean does protesting the protestors make someone a Muslim hater? Can't have it both ways.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

So damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'll accept protesters who want humans to be treated humanely.

Fair enough. But I'll also go back to one of my original points. Why didn't we see any of these types of protests for any other conflict who want humans to be treated humanly?

And, IMHO, Hamas is just saying that for effect. Has it actually helped them? If people get their way, Israel will leave ordinary people more alone and then focus on Hamas. One thing for sure, labeling all protesters anti-Semite is pretty pointless. And also falls into Hamas' hands in the attempt to pull people apart.

It helps them politically. Sure Hamas is saying stuff for effect. But the overall attitude against Jews in general definitely helps Hamas. And like I've said repeatedly, which nobody has responded to, this has allowed the world to forget the atrocities of October 7. It all falls into proof of Dana Horn's book, People Love Dead Jews.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

My kids witnessed the protests at UM up close. I asked them about the "pro-Hamas" contingent and both said it was non-exustent. I am sure it's out there but it's fringe.

I mean does protesting the protestors make someone a Muslim hater? Can't have it both ways.

For crying out loud, I never said most of these protestors are openly pro-Hamas. I've said these protests are doing Hamas' bidding by "normalizing" Hamas.

 

[MichVandal]

Fair enough.



It helps them politically. Sure Hamas is saying stuff for effect. But the overall attitude against Jews in general definitely helps Hamas. And like I've said repeatedly, which nobody has responded to, this has allowed the world to forget the atrocities of October 7. It all falls into proof of Dana Horn's book, People Love Dead Jews.

Attitude against Jews, sure, but that forwards anyone who hates Jews. But to blanket everyone (as in saying nobody) is also lazy. People haven't forgotten, what they are seeing is a response that may not be the right one. People have been giving Israel more the benefit of the doubt for a long time- which is why it's now May and not camping in October/November.

By saying "nobody" that suggests that a vast majority of people do love dead Jews, and I just don't accept that premise. Most people like live people.

Hamas was horribly evil on Oct 7. Punish them. There's little point in punishing normal people for just living in an area. Punishing people for the sake of it (two eyes for an eye theory) is more counter productive than useful. History has pointed that out repeatedly. If Bibi isn't aware of that, then he's really not qualified to lead this. Especially when his people have been the target of that so very many times over history.

 

[Slap Shot]

For crying out loud, I never said most of these protestors are openly pro-Hamas. I've said these protests are doing Hamas' bidding by "normalizing" Hamas.

They are normalizing Hamas?

jfc never mind - that's an even more insipid argument.

 

[Russell Jaslow]

They are normalizing Hamas?

jfc never mind - that's an even more insipid argument.

They absolutely are. You're too blind to see it.