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Gaza 2023: The Next Episode

what happened in Hamburg this week is the kind of stuff that will make people lose a lot of sympathy for the cause, too. And not just because Germany doesn’t fuck around with anti semitism
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
it sounds like brown voted to divest and the kids dispersed quietly. I wonder that actually means to your point
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They didn't even vote to divest. The kids asked for a hearing and got one, and then they dispersed.

The cops in their riot gear with pepper spray break heads. Somebody fights back and then the cops break faces, and it's "justified." Tale as old as time. And the news and the looky-loos fall for it and tut tut about "what those protesters need is to get a job."

Every protest in history has gone this way. Even with Gandhi and MLK when the authorities couldn't goad people into defending themselves, they just fabricated it.

It's always the same, and the worry-beaders are always the same, and then after the fight is won and change is made they all claim to have been with the protesters all along.
 
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How brown handled it is ideal. And notice it’s not on tv 24/7 either.

given that adams is who he is, I have no doubt Columbia was always gonna end with jackboots. But the students breaking into the building and smashing windows, etc was also asking for trouble.

im sure ucla is headed to a great path. Both sets of opposing students were apparently changing F Joe Biden today so they found common ground
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
How brown handled it is ideal. And notice it’s not on tv 24/7 either.

given that adams is who he is, I have no doubt Columbia was always gonna end with jackboots. But the students breaking into the building and smashing windows, etc was also asking for trouble.

im sure ucla is headed to a great path. Both sets of opposing students were apparently changing F Joe Biden today so they found common ground
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My bet is the first student gets murdered at either UTA or some slave state school with a derp President looking to get on Fox.
 
walrus said:
I don't remember students against students back in Vietnam protest days, it was them against establishment. But I was in Orono not near any large campus and probably not old enough to pay to close attention. at least until my brother went to vietnam.
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At MTU, Dow quietly funded protests in favor of the war. Or at least, that's what my crazy anarcho-commie sociology prof claimed. Given the long and extensive relationship between Tech and Dow, that's one of his claims I do tend to believe.
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
Can anyone a little older than me answer this?

how is anything happening on campuses right now drastically different than prior campus protests? Didn’t the anti war protests get pretty big back in the day?

im guessing social media, a corrupt media and schools calling in the riot police are the big differences?

sure, the girls in the hijabs last night at Minnesota shouting “go home to Germany and Poland” suck seem to want to be little terrorists. But I also think both sides are instigating crap for outrage videos, plus outside instigators happily jumping in
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I'm 68, soon to be 69 so, yes, I do remember.

Mark Rudd and the the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) occupied Columbia buildings in protest of the Vietnam War. The difference was they were not masked and, as others have said, accepted the consequences of their actions. I don't recall campus buildings being defaced.

Then there were the activist militants like Weather Underground members Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn who liked to build bombs and blow up things.

But the highlight (lowlight?) was the 1968 Democrat National Convention in Chicago. That was a mess with the confrontations between the protesters and the Chicago Police Department (televised by the major networks). The reaction inside the convention against Chicago mayor Dick Daley cost Humphrey the election.

Nowadays it seems there are professional agitators/organizers who are spreading gasoline on the flames and are manipulating the mob. For example, where did all those identical tents come from and who is paying for them?

Those pros are not the ones getting arrested or clobbered.

Kep is close to my age and invariably will have a different perspective.
 
There seem to be two tacts in these protests, by school administration and police:

1. Work with the protesters and attempt to find some common ground. Maybe you can achieve something together, maybe you can't, but at least come at them on the level.
2. OMG CALL THE POLICE!!!1!!11!


One of those tacts has had a pretty smooth run of it, so far. And the other... less so. Can we all guess which tact leads to which outcome?
 
Swansong said:
There seem to be two tacts in these protests, by school administration and police:

1. Work with the protesters and attempt to find some common ground. Maybe you can achieve something together, maybe you can't, but at least come at them on the level.
2. OMG CALL THE POLICE!!!1!!11!


One of those tacts has had a pretty smooth run of it, so far. And the other... less so. Can we all guess which tact leads to which outcome?
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Yes, they need to work with them. However, there are rules to peaceful protests and that rule was broken at UCLA. What seems to work in that context is if the students are warned ahead of time that if they cross any of the lines they will be expelled immediately. Where that rule has been put down things have not gotten out of hand.
 
It is difficult to fully understand the campus protests and violence in the late 60s outside of the context of the times, particularly the 5-8 years leading up to them. Cities burned in the race riots of the mid 60s. Bobby Kennedy and MLK were both assassinated in '68. The war was deeply unpopular by '68, and the marches and protests were often angry scenes. Right or wrong, young people faulted the establishment (prior generation) for the Vietnam War, suppressive policies on racial and gender rights, widespread pollution of the country's lakes and waterways, etc. Distrust was deep--on both sides. Campus occupations were not only in NYC and Berkely. Students occupied the building used by Dow Chemical to interview students at UW Madison, and in 1970, four former and current students bombed a building used for research with military implications, resulting in near total destruction of the building, the death of one researcher and a number of nonfatal injuries. It was a violent time, and campus occupations and protests reflected that. I do not recall (I'm 71) students being more or less responsible in the way they dealt with administrative responses. I can tell you that a very large percentage of the "younger" generation did not trust establishment authority of any kind. For many, the Kent State murders were a f ck you moment.
 
I'll add that some of the demands I've seen regarding divestment are ridiculous. Apple? Microsoft? Really, kids? Come on.


It's also incredibly typical of our country that the discussion is no longer "can we stop the IDF from murdering even more Gazans", but instead is "OMG look at these violent college kids!!!"
 
Swansong said:
I'll add that some of the demands I've seen regarding divestment are ridiculous. Apple? Microsoft? Really, kids? Come on.


It's also incredibly typical of our country that the discussion is no longer "can we stop the IDF from murdering even more Gazans", but instead is "OMG look at these violent college kids!!!"
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Because these college kids are giving the corporate controlled media exactly what they want.

That’s all these protesters are really accomplishing. They’re creating the exact kind of chaos that fuels the fascist agenda. Dump, Bibi, and Putin are absolutely laughing about this right now.

And sadly, most of the young people are happy with it too. Dump being elected fuels their accelerationist fantasies.
 
joecct said:
Kep is close to my age and invariably will have a different perspective.
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Not entirely different TBH. Just a difference in emphasis. I remember the agitprop of the FBI and law enforcement working hand in hand with rightwing nuts and rich as-sholes to slander protesters. If you are defending wrong by any reasonable definition, you need some other distraction or factor. You can't fight on the merits in a fair democratic marketplace of ideas. So, you cheat: push your biased narrative on corporate-owned media that has no interest in change; emphasize racist, xenophobic, and radical Christian derp to turn the majority's brains off. Or you just pay a guy to throw a bomb while dressed in the protesters' clothing cuz hey the victim dies in a good cause and will get pie in the sky when they die.

Think Putin and now imagine it in a Brooks Brothers suit.

It's how the game has always been played, and the folks with the money and power have an enormous homefield advantage.
 
Kepler said:
Jews who "fight back."
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There are assholes within both protestor groups. But thanks for totally missing the point.

Anyone happen to remember October 7? Didn't think so. That's a key part of my point.

But let those pro Palestinian Americans continue to play patsy proxy Hamas soldiers. They must be so proud of themselves to be roped in by a terrorist organization out to eliminate an entire ethnic group.
 
burd said:
It is difficult to fully understand the campus protests and violence in the late 60s outside of the context of the times, particularly the 5-8 years leading up to them. Cities burned in the race riots of the mid 60s. Bobby Kennedy and MLK were both assassinated in '68. The war was deeply unpopular by '68, and the marches and protests were often angry scenes. Right or wrong, young people faulted the establishment (prior generation) for the Vietnam War, suppressive policies on racial and gender rights, widespread pollution of the country's lakes and waterways, etc. Distrust was deep--on both sides. Campus occupations were not only in NYC and Berkely. Students occupied the building used by Dow Chemical to interview students at UW Madison, and in 1970, four former and current students bombed a building used for research with military implications, resulting in near total destruction of the building, the death of one researcher and a number of nonfatal injuries. It was a violent time, and campus occupations and protests reflected that. I do not recall (I'm 71) students being more or less responsible in the way they dealt with administrative responses. I can tell you that a very large percentage of the "younger" generation did not trust establishment authority of any kind. For many, the Kent State murders were a f ck you moment.
Click to expand...

As an undergrad, I had a job coordinating visiting lectures. When I met Dr. Merzenich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Merzenich he told me he lost all of the progress of his post-doc animal work as all of the rats he was studying went deaf with the explosion/bombing.
 
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