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Gaza 2023: The Next Episode

Russell Jaslow said:
They absolutely are. You're too blind to see it.
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You'll have to explain how protesting against killing normal people is normalizing hamas. That's kind of their playbook. Given how they are using the public for PR reasons, it's not as if hamas really cares about the people they are trying to "protect".

Normal people just trying to survive have no real chance of stopping Hamas, as they were not *really* voted to be the ones leading the terrorist fight- they are just doing it. But putting no effort into not killing normal people certainly pushes them toward becoming hamas supporters, as what else can they do?

BTW, one more time- protesting against what Israel is doing isn't being anti-Semitic. Sure, some people are, and are using the opportunity to further their anti-Semitic stance, but many others are not. You keep bringing that up that "nobody" cares about Oct 7, which means "everyone" wants to see hamas prevail. And that protesters are part of the crowd that want to see Jews die.

Please don't post that you are not saying that, as you keep bringing it up.
 
Russell Jaslow said:
Your point and my point are not mutually exclusive.

No matter what government was in power on October 7, the response would have been pretty much what we are seeing now. I'm convinced of that. I've studied Israel my whole life. I spent a whole summer there. You don't understand the feelings (and quite frankly, some of those feelings are not nice) the common Israeli citizen has and what they expect from whatever government is in power. The retribution after October 7 would have been at a similar scale, no matter the government.

But that doesn't disprove your point either.

And speaking of destroying other countries, educate yourself. Research Black September. Research the collapse of Lebanon after Black September (and the treatment of Lebanese Christians by the PLO). There is a reason why Arab countries no longer want anything to do with Palestinians and their terrorist groups. Why do you think Egypt refuses to open their Gaza border, which could save thousands? Why do you think Saudi Arabia is still going ahead with normalizing relations with Israel? Palestine is old news for these Arab countries. They don't give a crap anymore. Yet, there is no criticism aimed at them. (And I'm not even going to get into the question of what Jordan did, or more accurately did not do, when they occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967.)
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I’ll take your word that any Israeli government, not just Netanyahu’s, would have responded in a f-cking ridiculous display of disproportionality.
As for educating myself, make sure you learn to read good and do other things good too, bro. I said “countries’ militaries”, not “countries.” Adding “military” to the end of country there means I’m saying Israel is adept at destroying militaries far bigger and stronger than Hamas, without destroying that country’s people. The rest of your sh-t about Egypt and Jordan not helping Palestinians is irrelevant to what I’m discussing with you.
 
Russell Jaslow said:
And speaking of destroying other countries, educate yourself. Research Black September. Research the collapse of Lebanon after Black September (and the treatment of Lebanese Christians by the PLO). There is a reason why Arab countries no longer want anything to do with Palestinians and their terrorist groups. Why do you think Egypt refuses to open their Gaza border, which could save thousands? Why do you think Saudi Arabia is still going ahead with normalizing relations with Israel? Palestine is old news for these Arab countries. They don't give a crap anymore. Yet, there is no criticism aimed at them. (And I'm not even going to get into the question of what Jordan did, or more accurately did not do, when they occupied the West Bank from 1948-1967.)
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BTW, a quick google search shows multiple articles about Egypt not allowing Palestinians to cross the border. So to say "no criticism" is pretty much like saying "nobody" is remembering what happened Oct 7.

It's not helpful to put blanket statements out there like that. Kind of undermines your greater point that Jews are under "total" attack. Kind of just corrects it to just Hamas and them manipulating people to defeat Israel.
 
psych said:
As for educating myself, make sure you learn to read good and do other things good too, bro. I said “countries’ militaries”, not “countries.” Adding “military” to the end of country there means I’m saying Israel is adept at destroying militaries far bigger and stronger than Hamas, without destroying that country’s people. The rest of your sh-t about Egypt and Jordan not helping Palestinians is irrelevant to what I’m discussing with you.
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Fair enough. But it is relevant to the overall discussion.
 
MichVandal said:
BTW, a quick google search shows multiple articles about Egypt not allowing Palestinians to cross the border. So to say "no criticism" is pretty much like saying "nobody" is remembering what happened Oct 7.

It's not helpful to put blanket statements out there like that. Kind of undermines your greater point that Jews are under "total" attack. Kind of just corrects it to just Hamas and them manipulating people to defeat Israel.
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Sure there are lots of articles. But where are the protests shutting down schools over it? Come one. I've enjoyed debating you, but there is a massive disproportionality between the two. And you know that.
 
MichVandal said:
You'll have to explain how protesting against killing normal people is normalizing hamas. That's kind of their playbook. Given how they are using the public for PR reasons, it's not as if hamas really cares about the people they are trying to "protect".
Click to expand...

Because terrorism works. That's the cold, hard truth people do not want to admit.

Heck, even Israel's existence was partially due to terrorism. Menachem Begin led the infamous King David Hotel bombing. He later became a Prime Minister.

The PLO (under a different name, the Palestinian Authority, but they are the same organization led by Abbas, who was Arafat's righthand man) now is the Israeli recognized governing body of the West Bank. And used to be the Gaza Strip as well, until Hamas kicked them out. Ironically, the PLO charter was also to eliminate Israel. That kind of stopped after Arafat and Sharon died.

Terrorism allows causes to be publicized. None of these protests would have occurred had Hamas not attacked Israel. That's why I keep saying Hamas knew exactly what was going to happen. And apparently, they had the plan in place to rally the campuses to their side. Because they knew how Israel was going to react.

No different than the IRA, which relied on Britain's overreaction. Or, the US overreacting to 9/11. Going into Afganistan was acceptable, going into Iraq was absurd. But countries always overreact. Heck, I just read a fascinating book on the Spartacus War. Talk about a country overreacting... (Throughout history, countries are always stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to terrrorism. They have to protect their citizens, that's their role, but they can never truly "win" a fight against terrorists. So, they go all gung ho. Kep always goes on about the Right, but he conveniently ignores how Obama increased the drone strike program by 10X! All governments are the same -- they overreact to a threat, especially a terrorists attack. Which is why I keep saying Israel would have responded similarly no matter what government was in power. Which is also why countries tend to always lost the propaganda war to "freedom fighters.")

How many of you would have ever known about the Basque separatists if it wasn't for the terrorist attacks in I think the '70s? Heck, even the Quebec separatists blew up a few mailboxes to get attention. How many people really paid attention to the Houthis which Saudia Arabia was trying to wipe out, until the Houthis started firing missiles at civilian ships and U.S. military bases?

How many would have paid much attention over the decades to the Palestinian cause had it not been for the attacks over the years by the PLO, Hamas, etc.? Even an attack on the Olympics wasn't enough for the world to say enough. Heck, Arafat instructed the PLO to increase attacks after 9/11. He was afraid the world would forget about the Palestinians and figured the U.S. was too busy to worry about Isreal.

You keep harping on the "protesting against killing normal people" mantra. You can't argue against that. But that's not what is going on here at a higher level. Again, Hamas knew what the chain of events was going to be. And as you say, they don't care about their own people. They only cared about getting their word out. It's a marketing campaign. The world was forgetting about the Palestinian cause, they attacked Israel, people started paying attention, before Hamas could be completely crucified by the world, Isreal reacted, and the world turned against Israel. And apparently Hamas had these college campus protests all planned out and funded.

The people protesting against killing normal people are doing the right thing. And that's what Hamas banked on. Because it's also causing the world to turn more and more against Israel (like demands to divest) making Hamas hope there is a weak spot to wipe it out. There were people in this thread who said they are getting sick and tired of Isreal and feel they can no longer support them. Exactly what Hamas wants. So all these protestors, even if they are doing the morally, ethical thing, are only doing it because of a terrorist attack. This is the "normalizing" I'm talking about.

Terrorism works. The protests are proving that.

BTW, one more time- protesting against what Israel is doing isn't being anti-Semitic. Sure, some people are, and are using the opportunity to further their anti-Semitic stance, but many others are not. You keep bringing that up that "nobody" cares about Oct 7, which means "everyone" wants to see hamas prevail. And that protesters are part of the crowd that want to see Jews die.

Please don't post that you are not saying that, as you keep bringing it up.
Click to expand...

The two don't correlate. I may have said nobody cares about October 7, but that doesn't imply I mean everybody cares about Hamas. It means they are losing sight of the real issue -- terrorism works. And they are playing into those hands by getting people to hate on Isreal (which is true, not necessarily antisemitic, though it is if you think Israel should not exist).

I know this was long. We need to get back to watching the Miami GP.
 
MichVandal said:
Can't there be a position where you are pro Jewish, even pro Jewish state, but against how this is being handled and against the current leaders of Israel?
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No because the far-right wants clear battle lines. No gray areas, no compromises, just straight up 'here's the line' and it never changes. Unless they want it to change.

So, being pro-Jewish, pro-Jewish state, but against Bibi and his goon squad means you're anti-semetic. Pro-Palestinian people but anti-Hamas? Might as well fly an ISIS flag you freak.
 
aparch said:
No because the far-right wants clear battle lines. No gray areas, no compromises, just straight up 'here's the line' and it never changes. Unless they want it to change.

So, being pro-Jewish, pro-Jewish state, but against Bibi and his goon squad means you're anti-semetic. Pro-Palestinian people but anti-Hamas? Might as well fly an ISIS flag you freak.
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I think we all need to call a truce on this discussion. :-)
 
Russell Jaslow said:
Sure there are lots of articles. But where are the protests shutting down schools over it? Come one. I've enjoyed debating you, but there is a massive disproportionality between the two. And you know that.
Click to expand...

Well, that's easy. Egypt isn't killing anyone. Nobody is protesting Israel not allowing Palestinians being allowed into Israel en-masse. Heck, not many are even protesting the continued oppression of Palestinians that has been going on for decades. So what Egypt is not doing is pretty much the same thing Israel does every single day.

What's happened now is the rater disproportional response, taken out on people who are just trying to get along. Unless I missed some massive college protests before Hamas attacked and the response happened.

Still, questioning the response that isn't as targeted as Israel has shown in past fights isn't anti-Semitic, it's not anti Israel, it's not pro Hamas. You are reading that, which is fine, but lets not use words like "everyone", "nobody", "all the time"- as that's totally inaccurate.
 
Russell Jaslow said:
Because terrorism works. That's the cold, hard truth people do not want to admit.

Heck, even Israel's existence was partially due to terrorism. Menachem Begin led the infamous King David Hotel bombing. He later became a Prime Minister.

The PLO (under a different name, the Palestinian Authority, but they are the same organization led by Abbas, who was Arafat's righthand man) now is the Israeli recognized governing body of the West Bank. And used to be the Gaza Strip as well, until Hamas kicked them out. Ironically, the PLO charter was also to eliminate Israel. That kind of stopped after Arafat and Sharon died.

Terrorism allows causes to be publicized. None of these protests would have occurred had Hamas not attacked Israel. That's why I keep saying Hamas knew exactly what was going to happen. And apparently, they had the plan in place to rally the campuses to their side. Because they knew how Israel was going to react.

No different than the IRA, which relied on Britain's overreaction. Or, the US overreacting to 9/11. Going into Afganistan was acceptable, going into Iraq was absurd. But countries always overreact. Heck, I just read a fascinating book on the Spartacus War. Talk about a country overreacting... (Throughout history, countries are always stuck between a rock and a hard place when it comes to terrrorism. They have to protect their citizens, that's their role, but they can never truly "win" a fight against terrorists. So, they go all gung ho. Kep always goes on about the Right, but he conveniently ignores how Obama increased the drone strike program by 10X! All governments are the same -- they overreact to a threat, especially a terrorists attack. Which is why I keep saying Israel would have responded similarly no matter what government was in power. Which is also why countries tend to always lost the propaganda war to "freedom fighters.")

How many of you would have ever known about the Basque separatists if it wasn't for the terrorist attacks in I think the '70s? Heck, even the Quebec separatists blew up a few mailboxes to get attention. How many people really paid attention to the Houthis which Saudia Arabia was trying to wipe out, until the Houthis started firing missiles at civilian ships and U.S. military bases?

How many would have paid much attention over the decades to the Palestinian cause had it not been for the attacks over the years by the PLO, Hamas, etc.? Even an attack on the Olympics wasn't enough for the world to say enough. Heck, Arafat instructed the PLO to increase attacks after 9/11. He was afraid the world would forget about the Palestinians and figured the U.S. was too busy to worry about Isreal.

You keep harping on the "protesting against killing normal people" mantra. You can't argue against that. But that's not what is going on here at a higher level. Again, Hamas knew what the chain of events was going to be. And as you say, they don't care about their own people. They only cared about getting their word out. It's a marketing campaign. The world was forgetting about the Palestinian cause, they attacked Israel, people started paying attention, before Hamas could be completely crucified by the world, Isreal reacted, and the world turned against Israel. And apparently Hamas had these college campus protests all planned out and funded.

The people protesting against killing normal people are doing the right thing. And that's what Hamas banked on. Because it's also causing the world to turn more and more against Israel (like demands to divest) making Hamas hope there is a weak spot to wipe it out. There were people in this thread who said they are getting sick and tired of Isreal and feel they can no longer support them. Exactly what Hamas wants. So all these protestors, even if they are doing the morally, ethical thing, are only doing it because of a terrorist attack. This is the "normalizing" I'm talking about.

Terrorism works. The protests are proving that.



The two don't correlate. I may have said nobody cares about October 7, but that doesn't imply I mean everybody cares about Hamas. It means they are losing sight of the real issue -- terrorism works. And they are playing into those hands by getting people to hate on Isreal (which is true, not necessarily antisemitic, though it is if you think Israel should not exist).

I know this was long. We need to get back to watching the Miami GP.
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What "higher level" are you talking about?

Israel is supposed to have the best intel service in the world, right? And some of the best of the best fighters in the world, too. So why take it out on everyone instead of focusing on using their skill and knowledge to focus on Hamas? Makes little sense to me.

And extrapolating "sick and tired" of the response- do you honestly think that people are sick and tired of Israel as a country? When the reality us that people are sick of seeing people like Bibi take his frustrations out on other people. Give people some credit, man. It's not against the country, it's against the leadership. Again, I find taking protests against Israel's response and turning that into a suggestion of mass anti-Semitism is lazy and dishonest- pretty much exactly what Hamas is so good at doing.

If it REALLY was about normalizing Hamas, then people would be protesting to actively see Hamas attack Israel. That's normalizing terrorism as a thing to do. Again, saying that Israel may be going over the line in dealing with Hamas IS NOT supporting Hamas attacking Israel.

Unless you think people around the world who are sick and tired of US leaders like dumpy actually want to see the US fail as a whole. Sure, some do, but when huge masses of people make a living selling stuff to US, even when they hate the leadership- they don't want to see the US actually fail. And by people, I mean the people who just want to make a living, raise a family, and try to see their kids do better than them. Not the politicians who say things.
 
Videos today of Israelis blocking aid trucks and destroying all the supplies was charming

just some real garbage people on both sides here and this is one of the only times I think a both sides argument makes sense
 
dxmnkd316 said:
**** that. I like the penguins.
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YIL there are penguins in Africa. I learned this because I read a story about them going extinct due to a combination of human cruelty (poachers) and human stupidity (climate change).

gettyimages-1189719100.jpg

"Life? Don't talk to me about life."
 
Deutsche Gopher Fan said:
Videos today of Israelis blocking aid trucks and destroying all the supplies was charming

just some real garbage people on both sides here and this is one of the only times I think a both sides argument makes sense
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Is this the group which used to be Gaza settlers, the ones who the IDF kicked out when they turned Gaza completely over to the Palestinians? I read a segment on them a few months ago when they were pulling the same sh*t. They are as fanatical as you get (and they aren't super conservative Jews, but definitely very myopic in their views) and believe they should be settling in Gaza no matter what. The group is led by a grandmother, who's "dream" is to resettle Gaza before she dies. Good luck with that...
 
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