Gaza 2023: The Next Episode

[psych]

We’ll have to agree to disagree about the “River to the sea” being a loaded phrase, or that it’s going to ever cause an uptick in violence, and almost certainly not among Arab or Palestinian Americans. Now, I agree with you that Arab-Americans not voting Democratic in 2024 is going to be a serious problem. I used the two Bosnian women I work with who are currently in the “I’ll never vote for Biden now” phase of this war as an example, but Tlaib isn’t the reason they don’t currently plan to vote. I talked with them about how much worse Trump is than Biden. And they agree with me, but they currently don’t care. They’re bitter and mad and, quite frankly, scared, too. Tlaib is just reinforcing what they already think, and sharing their frustration publicly, as a powerful person. It’s the response of Joe Biden, and his comments such as “the other team caused the bombing [of the hospital]” despite the fact we don’t know that’s true, that’s powering their anger. It’s him saying “the Gaza Health Ministry’s numbers of Palestinian deaths are false”, despite the fact his administration just today or yesterday have now accepted those numbers as an accurate count. It’s the administration’s continued full-throated support and providing aid to Netanyahu/Israel, despite their absolutely 100% not proportional atrocious response to the initial atrocious attack by Hamas. They don’t feel supported by Biden et al. in any way, shape, or form. There’s definitely a lot of nuance there we both recognize, but I don’t think Tlaib is the basis of most of the resentment and anger toward the Democratic Party. She’s just channeling it, and frankly, I think she has every right to feel that way. I disagree with her that Biden is actively supporting genocide, as he is doing some things behind the scenes to alleviate Palestinian deaths, plus, he’s not the head of Israel’s government/armed forces, but I understand why she feels that way and support her for saying it. I hope Biden is either able to earn her and other Arab/Palestinian Americans votes back before 2024, or, once the time comes and the weight of not voting is much heavier, they’re too scared of a Trump presidency again, and will help Joe out.
I will vote for Biden no matter what, despite my disagreements with him on this, but I’m not Muslim. I’m not Palestinian. I’m not aggrieved in any way. Those people have a right to be frustrated with the handling of all of this by Biden and his administration, and quite frankly, other elected members of government across the country. I’m not Jewish, but I can’t see anywhere where what Biden and company has done can be seen as an affront to them. Handy could maybe enlighten me on that.

 

[Kepler]

This PBS blurb will explain better than I can, most likely

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/...hate-speech-nazi-propaganda-holocaust-denial/

That's a really good link, thank you!

Section 130 of the German criminal code criminalizes certain types of hate speech.

The law bans incitement to hatred and insults that assault human dignity against people based on their racial, national, religious or ethnic background. In post-World War II Germany, it has been used to prosecute racist and antisemitic threats and slurs, and it carries a sentence of up to five years in prison.

Section 130 did not always target racism and antisemitism. The law dates back to the creation of the German criminal code in 1871 and originally focused on incitement of class warfare as a response to the spread of Communism, Kahn said. Following a wave of scandals revealing the Nazi pasts of West German public officials in the 1950s, the law was amended to target neo-Nazi incitement.

“It’s only a post-World War II understanding that says incitement includes saying things about Jews,” said Jonathan Bush, a Columbia Law School professor who has studied international law relating to the Holocaust.

The law was expanded to explicitly ban Holocaust denial in 1994, after a federal appeals court overturned the sentence of a far-right German politician who had organized a lecture describing the gassing of Jews at Auschwitz as a hoax. It is punishable by a sentence of up to five years.

In an interview with FRONTLINE, Christoph Hebbecker, a German federal prosecutor who specializes in digital hate crimes, described a recent case in which a German woman was charged with incitement after posting on the Russian social media platform VK that Syrian refugees should be shot upon entering Germany. “She was in relevant groups; her favorite book was Mein Kampf; and she wrote posts like that and similar ones,” Hebbecker said of the woman, who did not have a previous criminal record. She was convicted and sentenced to 11 months of probation and a fine, Hebbecker said.

Other prosecutions of Section 130 have carried comparatively harsher punishments. In 2007, Germar Rudolph, a German chemist who previously worked at the Max Planck Institute in Stuttgart, was convicted of Holocaust denial and sentenced to two and a half years in prison.

In addition, Germans face up to three years in prison for “approving of, glorifying or justifying” Nazi rule. This provision was added in 2005, in response to an increase in far-right extremist demonstrations, according to a report by the British free speech organization Article 19.

 

[Kepler]

I don't need her to be "quiet"; I literally only said she needs to avoid the loaded phrases.

Please don't take this as an attack, I want to make a comparison so you may see where I am coming from. Imagine if a conservative said this about "Black Lives Matter." Say he argued, "well, whether protesters mean it that way or not, conservatives take this as a racist statement that black lives should be valued more than white lives. So they can make their argument about police brutality, but avoid the loaded phrases."

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Please don't take this as an attack, I want to make a comparison so you may see where I am coming from. Imagine if a conservative said this about "Black Lives Matter." Say he argued, "well, whether protesters mean it that way or not, conservatives take this as a racist statement that black lives should be valued more than white lives. So they can make their argument about police brutality, but avoid the loaded phrases."

I need to think a bit more but the way you worded that makes me think a bit more. Way more coherent than the same argument he was saying over and over again .

but I will be honest with you, religion sets me off in a big way, and I get utterly disgusted with Christian’s and Muslims equally (fundies) so that may be my blind spot

 

[Kepler]

but I will be honest with you, religion sets me off in a big way, and I get utterly disgusted with Christian’s and Muslims equally so that may be my blind spot

Oh, me too, believe me.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

What, exactly, do you think her fundie constituents are going to do with her words about wanting Palestinian freedom? Have we a seen a spike in Arab-Americans killing Jews in Muslim-majority Dearborn, Hamtramck, or elsewhere in the U.S.? If Arab-Americans in this country were waiting to get more violent against other people, wouldn't Hamas attacking Israel and Israel carpet-bombing the Gaza strip, full of women and children, in response, be a good enough clarion call for them to take action? If anything, she's only unintentionally opening up her constituents to more hate crimes committed against them, as has already happened (obviously Jews have seen a spike as well). I don't think she's using it as a dog whistle, so I'm not part of the "we all know" group. To imply she's using it as a dog whistle is to imply she is intentionally, albeit subtly, calling for violence. Tlaib has said more than once we she wants a two-state solution. And she has said she weeps for Israeli deaths as well. She's also said she wants a ceasefire/peace. I'll take her at her word when she says "river to the sea" is an aspirational call for Palestinian freedom, not a clear message to destroy all Israelis and/or Jews. Just like I take other Palestinians who have been saying the phrase for decades now. That phrase has historically never been meant as a phrase for genocide of Jews, unless one believes only the Israeli/Jewish and not Palestinian version of the phrase. And, of course the media is going to run with it, as if they're so damn trustworthy to be honest about such a sensitive topic. It's drama. CNN, NYT, Washington Post, etc., love drama. You know who else is running with it, for nefarious purposes? The GOP. Disgusting that Tlaib was censured in Congress, with the measure brought up by a f-cking southern white Republican man.

It doesn't matter how she personally interprets it, it's how others with skin in the game interpret the meaning of that phrase. And to respond to the outcry with, "I'm sorry you took it that way, that's not how I meant it" is how someone who isn't actually sorry for their words pseudo-apologizes and gaslights people. It's not a real apology, nor a sincere attempt to understand why that phrase upsets people. As an elected official, she should exercise more judgement in how she communicates with the public and her constituents. That said, censuring her was stupid and partisan in nature (duh). I'm going to leave it at that.

 

[psych]

It doesn't matter how she personally interprets it, it's how others with skin in the game interpret the meaning of that phrase. And to respond to the outcry with, "I'm sorry you took it that way, that's not how I meant it" is how someone who isn't actually sorry for their words pseudo-apologizes and gaslights people. It's not a real apology, nor a sincere attempt to understand why that phrase upsets people. As an elected official, she should exercise more judgement in how she communicates with the public and her constituents. That said, censuring her was stupid and partisan in nature (duh). I'm going to leave it at that.

So she needs to be quiet and not offend the "others" with skin in the game in this scenario, which are Israelis/Jews? When she says "To me, river to the sea means a call for peace and co-existence, not genocide", she isn't to be believed when she says she means that, the original meaning of the phrase, which existed before Hamas and the PLO co-opted it? Terrorist groups have since co-opted the phrase, but that shouldn't mean the original meaning of the phrase should not only be lost, but not allowed to be said anymore, especially by a Palestinian woman. She gets to interpret it because she has more skin in the game than almost anyone else. I don't see her apologizing anywhere. Like I said once before in a conversation with you, I don't think she needs to, because she hasn't said anything offensive. It appears not only her constituents, but the vast majority of Arab Americans, also agree that she didn't say anything offensive. The second censure was introduced only because of the phrase, and sadly, it wasn't a partisan vote, it was bipartisan. More Democrats voted to censure Tlaib than Republicans voted for the "bipartisan" infrastructure bill. I find that incredibly sad.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

Oh, me too, believe me.

Oddly enough, though with very different intentions, you are second person this week to bring up Black Lives Matter in a related context.

someone on Nextdoor asked if there was a way to support Jewish neighbors who were afraid to put out any holiday decorations or signs that outed their religion. Ok, not a malicious ask.

a self-identified black 40 year old male came storming into convo and just pissed everyone off, saying that where were you people after Derek chauvin? Oddly enough the ones asking to assist Jews now were first ones to put out Black Lives Matter signs but I digress. Where he lost people was his rant about how the US has never harmed a Jew. Meanwhile the hood in between he and I was redlined against both Jews and blacks for decades
the whole exchange just made me deeply, deeply sad. I try to stay off ND, but I’m involved in some local city proposals that are polarizing people and I like to read what others think and try to see if they’re making points I didn’t previously see

 

[psych]

I need to think a bit more but the way you worded that makes me think a bit more. Way more coherent than the same argument he was saying over and over again .

but I will be honest with you, religion sets me off in a big way, and I get utterly disgusted with Christian’s and Muslims equally (fundies) so that may be my blind spot

My argument is only reflecting Tlaib's feelings on the subject, which is she doesn't think the phrase is loaded at all, as she doesn't want all the Jews to be killed. If you think Kepler's argument is more coherent, be my guest. But, I have made a similar argument before, albeit slightly differently, when a past poster called Tlaib a "troll" for her viewpoints. I responded with:

Going to just have to generally disagree on this one. The only thing I’ve seen her write/say that can be construed as inflammatory is that she immediately accused Israel of bombing the hospital without evidence. And, as of yet, hasn’t apologized, but I’m not going to ask her to do so. Not my place, nor is the evidence 100%. I think Kepler said it’s possible we’ll likely never know, and I’ll agree with him at this point in time.
Given that Tlaib is the only Palestinian-American in Congress, with family living in Israel, I think saying she’s “trolling” when she has way, way more skin in the game than most, if not all lawmakers, and definitely you and I in this situation, is a mischaracterization. This has to be one of the issues she’s most passionate about, if not the most passionate about, and watching white d-chebag guys like Josh Gottheimer (albeit, from a Jewish family) denounce her and tell her to shut the f-ck up feels like someone telling Black people to shut the f-ck up during the Civil Rights Movement. I fully understand Biden supporting Israel, as Hamas is a terrorist group (Tlaib has denounced them too) and this was an evil, heinous attack, but I can fully understand why Tlaib feels slighted by some of Biden’s actions during this crisis. As has been said ad nauseum, being Palestinian does not equal support for Hamas, just like being Israeli or Jewish does not equal support of Bibi and his horrendously anti-Palestinian government, so Biden making statements like “the other side” caused the hospital bombing seems ishy, even to me.
A respectful disagreement, but I definitely support and empathize with Tlaib during this rough time for her people. I find her to generally be an excellent representative for her district, whether she chooses to measure her public statements or not.

Now, since that conversation was held, she used the "loaded phrase", but I equate Tlaib, being from a vulnerable group, fighting for her people and their equality, as an African-American person fighting for their equality during the Civil Rights Movement, and people, especially white southern conservative men, telling her to "shut the f-ck up", especially through a formal censure, as white people during the Civil Rights Movement doing everything they could to silence African-Americans. I'm not saying YOU in particular are doing this, but in my mind, the fact they're so similar to me is why I feel the need to continue to converse about it, even if my arguments are coming off as "incoherent."

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

It doesn't matter how she personally interprets it, it's how others with skin in the game interpret the meaning of that phrase. And to respond to the outcry with, "I'm sorry you took it that way, that's not how I meant it" is how someone who isn't actually sorry for their words pseudo-apologizes and gaslights people. It's not a real apology, nor a sincere attempt to understand why that phrase upsets people. As an elected official, she should exercise more judgement in how she communicates with the public and her constituents. That said, censuring her was stupid and partisan in nature (duh). I'm going to leave it at that.

Kep mentioned blm and I understood his point. Honest question- do any Indians or others use the swastika in large, public ways without at all referencing the nazis? We seem to denounce 88, the white power sign, etc even though they didn’t always have that meaning. And that’s where I was going with her phrase- the PLO and others mangled that expression

I’m asking this to be curious, and see if there are points im not thinking of

 

[Kepler]

I discovered Nextdoor when I lived in rural Maryland and I thought "Neat! Maybe I can find neighbors who play chess or stamp collect or something!"

Wow.

I joke about flyovers on Cafe being hayseeds but it's just that, a joke. It's a college hockey board. With only a few exceptions it's a pretty bright crowd. But Nextdoor showed me what my neighbors were like when they were unfiltered and... well, elections were no longer a surprise to me. It was my first real meeting with Average Joe F-ckstain since high school and my god the viciousness and idiocy of the gen pop just wasn't something I was prepared for seeing in realtime.

Appalachia is 15 miles outside of every city, and that includes the burbs. Republican suburbanites are indistinguishably malevolent from their country mouse analogs. The mind-numbing stupidity combined with hatefulness of the Echo Chamber audience was so appalling it basically recalibrated my entire opinion of democracy.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

I discovered Nextdoor when I lived in rural Maryland and I thought "Neat! Maybe I can find neighbors who play chess or stamp collect or something!"

Wow.

Ooof. You poor, naive Boomer. Hoping that a social media site for your neighborhood wouldn't devolve into a corner of the Internet that makes you weep for humanity and conclude we don't deserve this planet. ;-)

 

[Kepler]

Ooof. You poor, naive Boomer. Hoping that a social media site for your neighborhood wouldn't devolve into a corner of the Internet that makes you weep for humanity and conclude we don't deserve this planet. ;-)

I mean, I go to bars. I should have known.

 

[dxmnkd316]

I always knew the average person was a moron, but Nextdoor really made me remember how averages work.

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

I mean, I go to bars. I should have known.

Have you seriously been to a bar lately? Those of us under 40 just order beers, stare at our phones, and don't interact with people we don't know. Most of us don't even know how to eject from convos with the town drunk because we're polite to a fault.

 

[unofan]

I always knew the average person was a moron, but Nextdoor really made me remember how averages work.

Picture the average American in your head, and remember 50% is dumber than that.

 

[Kepler]

Have you seriously been to a bar lately? Those of us under 40 just order beers, stare at our phones, and don't interact with people we don't know. Most of us don't even know how to eject from convos with the town drunk because we're polite to a fault.

I haven't been to a bar since I got married in 2004.

 

[Deutsche Gopher Fan]

I always knew the average person was a moron, but Nextdoor really made me remember how averages work.

Honestly most of the reason I peruse is to see if someone has a hit out on me (as I’m a non-paid volunteer with local government)

 

[dxmnkd316]

Honestly most of the reason I peruse is to see if someone has a hit out on me (as I’m a non-paid volunteer with local government)

I legit thought this was Kepler posting before I saw your name

I check because some of the email headlines I see are like reading the tabloids at the grocery store.

Sometimes I'll check for what happened if there's a huge police presence somewhere

 

[Kepler]

Neocons are scum. ISW is reporting on Gaza under the heading "Iran Update."

End the Right
Save the world