Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

I'll make it easy for you: I don't give a chit about the "psychospiritual dynamics" of Indians or anyone else. Cutting through your self congratulatory (and amazingly turgid) rhetoric, we're left with this: I think white folks got rights. You don't.

But based on American ideals and US law...'white folks' rights to do what they want take a back seat to minorities rights to not be subjected to racism. Sorry.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Please read what's there: "FOR PROFIT." Sioux Falls would not be in any worse financial shape if it were named "Mudville." No profit + no defamation = no harm. UND clearly DOES profit from its use of the "Sioux" name. Even if this means nothing to the Sioux and they do not formally object it's still against United States law.

Once again we can go back to the Irish, does Notre Dame share its profit with the Irish?

 

[WeWantMore]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

If there wasn't a funding issue here, the legislation requiring UND's logo would be an absolutely unconstitutional infringment of free speech.

If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.

 

[burd]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Oldpi:
Bottom line: It is illegal, unethical, or both to use the name of another discrete, long established organization of human beings for profit - without a contract. That's U.S. law, not Sioux law.

Really? Statute or case law? Point us to it.

Sounds like you haven't the slightest.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

burd: I suggest you go into business using the name "The Fighting Mormons." You will shortly have more than the slightest.

 

[Patman]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

First, this is not driven by the NCAA but rather national universities. So blame the universities. Second, the NCAA is a voluntary organization which the universities by and large feel is doing a great job. Just like banks and airlines mandate that you can't patronize them while carrying handguns...and that is totally legal and appropriate.

The key here is that other universities think its inapproppriate to be playing schools they deem are taking offensive actions...and taking steps to deal with it through the NCAA.

In the end, something the NCAA does doesn't give North Dakota's government the right to limit free speech.

Actually, this is driven by the NCAAs and not disagreed to by the national universities... or shall we revisit our conversation about executive boards from 3-4 years ago? Further, the opinions of college presidents are far and away divorced from that of the alumni base.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Actually, this is driven by the NCAAs and not disagreed to by the national universities... or shall we revisit our conversation about executive boards from 3-4 years ago? Further, the opinions of college presidents are far and away divorced from that of the alumni base.

Wait. What? College presidents don't always listen to their alumni? Hypothetically, if the alumni at an unnamed school wanted to restore a cherished mascot, and provided the costume, and the students really wanted it too, you mean there would be a president who would mouth platitudinous swill and refuse to re-instate that mascot? I find that hard to beleive.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Wait. What? College presidents don't always listen to their alumni? Hypothetically, if the alumni at an unnamed school wanted to restore a cherished mascot, and provided the costume, and the students really wanted it too, you mean there would be a president who would mouth platitudinous swill and refuse to re-instate that mascot? I find that hard to beleive.

What do you mean?

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

What do you mean?

Racist.

 

[Patman]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Wait. What? College presidents don't always listen to their alumni? Hypothetically, if the alumni at an unnamed school wanted to restore a cherished mascot, and provided the costume, and the students really wanted it too, you mean there would be a president who would mouth platitudinous swill and refuse to re-instate that mascot? I find that hard to beleive.

Don't you know college presidents are never wrong... after all, they're appointed after a vote of the extremely knowledgeable and esteemed faculty for their wise wisdom and vision demonstrated through their years of study and teaching. They are the western equivalent of the lamas.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Don't you know college presidents are never wrong... after all, they're appointed after a vote of the extremely knowledgeable and esteemed faculty for their wise wisdom and vision demonstrated through their years of study and teaching. They are the western equivalent of the lamas.

Is that one "l" or two?

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Wait. What? College presidents don't always listen to their alumni? Hypothetically, if the alumni at an unnamed school wanted to restore a cherished mascot, and provided the costume, and the students really wanted it too, you mean there would be a president who would mouth platitudinous swill and refuse to re-instate that mascot? I find that hard to beleive.

Depends upon the mascot, now doesn't it? Tojo? Jesus? Tinkerbell? Manson? - hypothetically, of course, since we are pretending that mascots/nicknames have no cultural, ethical, religious, legal, or financial relevance.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

The UND program and their fans can go suck a nut, but let them keep the Fighting Sioux name.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Depends upon the mascot, now doesn't it? Tojo? Jesus? Tinkerbell? Manson? - hypothetically, of course, since we are pretending that mascots/nicknames have no cultural, ethical, religious, legal, or financial relevance.

The only "relevance" here is if a handful of professionals in some minority community and their lefty pleaders take offense (and you can bet your cocoanuts they will). If it was white people who were worked up, there would be no disucssion, 'cause white folks don't count.

You'd have a point if we were talking about "Buggerman," or the "Fellaciator," but we're not. But then, you knew that, didn't you?

 

[Patman]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Is that one "l" or two?

considering its a snark... one "l"... if I were talking about the real world two "l"... stand around, look pretty, be nice to the vistors, and spit occasionally.

 

[omahasioux1]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

The UND program and their fans can go suck a nut, but let them keep the Fighting Sioux name.

The only cool thing you have ever said.

 

[omahasioux1]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Oldpi:

Jerry Tarkanian is neither a long established human culture nor a nation recognized by United States treaties. The legal similarities between Tarkanian vs. the NCAA are closer to California vs. Lindsey Lohan than UND vs. NCAA/ Sioux. Enough nonsense, legal or otherwise.
Bottom line: It is illegal, unethical, or both to use the name of another discrete, long established organization of human beings for profit - without a contract. That's U.S. law, not Sioux law.

China is calling you.

 

[HarleyMC]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

As the referendum on the Spirit Lake reservation proved, the NCAA policy has "displeased" a large number of Sioux. If the Standing Rock Tribal Council would allow a similar referendum, we might learn that the majority of Sioux on that reservation are "displeased" as well.

Even without a vote, we know that there is an active and vocal group at Standing Rock that collected more than a thousand signatures in an effort to petition the tribal government to conduct a referendum on the Fighting Sioux nickname issue.

We also know that from the Sisseton-Wahpeton Sioux reservation in South Dakota and North Daktoa that friends and relatives of the late Woodrow Keeble -- the only Sioux to receive the Medal of Honor -- were pleased and honored to have his name enshrined as a Sioux warrior at Ralph Engelestad Arena.

Since it is not within the legal jurisdiction of the NCAA to stipulate how distinct tribal governments determine their representative view of the NCAA resolution, they are not liable for whatever tribal process is implemented to express that view. Therefore, I don't see how the NCAA has in anyway offended Native Americans regarding this issue.

The notion that all or even most Sioux approve of the NCAA policy is a myth.

Well judge for yourself, here are the facts:

Recently two major Native American organizations, the National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) and the National Indian Education Association (NIEA) reaffirmed their opposition to the use of Indian names and imagery by collegiate athletic teams.

The NIEA is the oldest Native American educational association in the United States. It seeks to promote the furtherance of educational and vocational opportunities throughout tribal constituencies in the US.

The NCIA is located in Washington D.C. as a major Native American governing body that provides broad-based leadership and offers protection on matters of tribal sovereignty throughout the US. Virtually every tribe on US soil is listed in it's directory including the northern Great Plains tribes, of which the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock tribes are a part.

More specifically, leaders (not the entire tribes) of 11 out of the 16 northern Great Plains tribes recently (this month) or 69% also voted to reaffirm their support of the NCAA's policy calling for elimination of American Indian nicknames, logos and mascots at member colleges and universities. Nine of them are Sioux tribes in the Dakotas and Nebraska; and the other two are the Omaha and Winnebago tribes of Nebraska.

Apparently Tex Hall, chairman of the Three Affiliated Tribes (Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara) of North Dakota, who is also chairman of the NIEA missed the vote in Rapid City because of severe weather conditions but told a spokeswoman that but he would have voted for it as well had he been there

The Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians told UND President Robert Kelley last week that they want the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo to pass into history.

"By a vote of 5-0, with two abstentions, the Tribal Council adopted a resolution last week stating that the band “is opposed to the ‘fighting Sioux’ nickname and logo” and they should be discontinued “immediately”...the Turtle Mountain resolution, noting that many members of the band are or have been students at UND, states that continued use of the nickname and logo “subjects all American Indian students … to racially insensitive discriminatory actions.” Use of the nickname and logo “sends a message to American Indian students that they are mascots.”

Keep in mind and as I stated in the past, tribal governments and their people are personified and embodied in the leadership of the tribal councils. It is atypical for tribal leadership to have a tribal vote on matters they feel are marginal issues that do not directly affect the welfare and future of the tribes themselves. They do not function with the same democratic philosophy and modality as US state and federal governments. The tribal councils are hegemonic, transcendent and hierarchical, and theoretically embody the will of the people on peripheral matters.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

Since it is not within the legal jurisdiction of the NCAA to stipulate how distinct tribal governments determine their representative view of the NCAA resolution, they are not liable for whatever tribal process is implemented to express that view. Therefore, I don't see how the NCAA has in anyway offended Native Americans regarding this issue.



Well judge for yourself, here are the facts:

Recently two major Native American organizations, the National Congress of American Indians (NCAI) and the National Indian Education Association (NIEA) reaffirmed their opposition to the use of Indian names and imagery by collegiate athletic teams.

The NIEA is the oldest Native American educational association in the United States. It seeks to promote the furtherance of educational and vocational opportunities throughout tribal constituencies in the US.

The NCIA is located in Washington D.C. as a major Native American governing body that provides broad-based leadership and offers protection on matters of tribal sovereignty throughout the US. Virtually every tribe on US soil is listed in it's directory including the northern Great Plains tribes, of which the Spirit Lake and Standing Rock tribes are a part.

More specifically, leaders (not the entire tribes) of 11 out of the 16 northern Great Plains tribes recently (this month) or 69% also voted to reaffirm their support of the NCAA's policy calling for elimination of American Indian nicknames, logos and mascots at member colleges and universities. Nine of them are Sioux tribes in the Dakotas and Nebraska; and the other two are the Omaha and Winnebago tribes of Nebraska.

Apparently Tex Hall, chairman of the Three Affiliated Tribes (Mandan, Hidatsa and Arikara) of North Dakota, who is also chairman of the NIEA missed the vote in Rapid City because of severe weather conditions but told a spokeswoman that but he would have voted for it as well had he been there

The Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa Indians told UND President Robert Kelley last week that they want the Fighting Sioux nickname and logo to pass into history.



Keep in mind and as I stated in the past, tribal governments and their people are personified and embodied in the leadership of the tribal councils. It is atypical for tribal leadership to have a tribal vote on matters they feel are marginal issues that do not directly affect the welfare and future of the tribes themselves. They do not function with the same democratic philosophy and modality as US state and federal governments. The tribal councils are hegemonic, transcendent and hierarchical, and theoretically embody the will of the people on peripheral matters.

You gotta hand it to somebody who can work "hegemonic" "transcendent" and "hierarchical" into one sentence. You really do. He quotes from a couple of organizations of professional Indians and their opposition to the nickname and suggests this is representative of all Indians. And for good measure throws in assurances from some dude who wasn't there that he would have voted against the nickname if it weren't for the weather (thus creating a new standard for future elections that would be very popular in Chicago). But the only scientific polling on the issue indicates Indians, in huge numbers, don't give a rip. In my business we have a saying: "less is more." He might consider this in future posts. Ponderous, leaden lectures designed to impress, in fact, don't.

However, I'm not prepared to concede that this is a matter that should be determined solely by Indians, whether Sioux or any other tribe. This is not South Africa. We do not (yet) have apartheid. These matters are in the public domain. As such, all citizens of North Dakota, even the white ones (gasp) theoretically have some skin in this game. There are racists in this debate all right, but not on the side of the Fighting Sioux. The racists are the ones using this issue as an excuse to get Whitey.

 

[Osorojo]

Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.

I have no idea how much money NDU grosses from "Fighting Sioux" sports gates and from "Fighting Sioux" logo merchandise, but I do have a pretty good idea how much is paid in royalties for the use of the name. There ought to be a law! Oh, wait. There is!

BTW: Ever wonder why Wake Forest is the Demon Deacons and not the Battling Baptists? It's because of what's in a name.