Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
According to the NCAA standards, why not?
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Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
- Thread starter Noise Inside My Head
- Start date
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Hennepin is also....oh...never mind...
Hennepin is also....oh...never mind...
SoCalSiouxFan
Registered User
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Also consider the "hostile and abusive" nature of the NCAA's corporate partners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhomaIqoiL0&feature=related
Also consider the "hostile and abusive" nature of the NCAA's corporate partners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhomaIqoiL0&feature=related
Biddco
Follow me on Twitter: @Biddco
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Minneapolis is only half Native American.
Nope. Only UND must change their nickname. Remember?
Minneapolis is only half Native American.
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
The name of a French priest?
The name of a French priest?
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Which goes to show the hypocritical nature of the NCAA and the absurdity of their quest to rid the college universe of "hostile and abusive" language. As I mentioned earlier in the thread...no one seems to have a problem with the "Dakota" part of North Dakota Fighting Sioux...so would it be ok for UND to change their name to North Dakota "Fighting Dakotas." How can the "Fighting Dakotas" part be "hostile and abusive" but not the the North Dakota part? They could just have their logo be the shape of the state and play it off like the Johnnies or Tommies...but I highly doubt that would still fly with the NCAA. This reminds me of the WIAA in Wisconsin trying to get the Tomahawk Hatchets to change their names on similar grounds...but that was because of the Hatchets was being used for a school in a town called Tomahawk.
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SoCalSiouxFan
Registered User
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Interesting bit of North Dakota trivia related to the Tomahawk name. All the state's highway marker signs had the profile of a Native American. What is interesting is that the profile was of a man named Red Tomahawk. Even more interesting is the fact that Red Tomahawk was also the Fort Yates police officer that shot and killed Sitting Bull.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nalakota/sc/rdtomhwk_scp122927.htm
http://www.american-tribes.com/Nakota/BIO/RedTomahawk.htm
Interesting bit of North Dakota trivia related to the Tomahawk name. All the state's highway marker signs had the profile of a Native American. What is interesting is that the profile was of a man named Red Tomahawk. Even more interesting is the fact that Red Tomahawk was also the Fort Yates police officer that shot and killed Sitting Bull.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~nalakota/sc/rdtomhwk_scp122927.htm
http://www.american-tribes.com/Nakota/BIO/RedTomahawk.htm
PCM
New member
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
It's a good point, considering that "Dakota" is a word from the Siouan language while "Sioux" isn't.
MinnesotaNorthStar
Minding the gap
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
I got it!!!!!
Change the name to the North Dakota Dakotas. We can still keep everything as is including "Sioux" since we can use the word "Sioux" as a nickname for the nickname much like the Virginia Cavaliers call themseles the Wahoos.
I got it!!!!!
Change the name to the North Dakota Dakotas. We can still keep everything as is including "Sioux" since we can use the word "Sioux" as a nickname for the nickname much like the Virginia Cavaliers call themseles the Wahoos.
Shirtless Guy
Old Dirty Basterd
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
you're welcomeI got it!!!!!
Change the name to the North Dakota Dakotas. We can still keep everything as is including "Sioux" since we can use the word "Sioux" as a nickname for the nickname much like the Virginia Cavaliers call themseles the Wahoos.
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
I'll make it easy for you: I don't give a chit about the "psychospiritual dynamics" of Indians or anyone else. Cutting through your self congratulatory (and amazingly turgid) rhetoric, we're left with this: I think white folks got rights. You don't.
Right on time, yet another flaccid example of Old Pio-us finger pointing. I was hoping for something a bit more substantive, but I guess DU grads obviously lack reflexivity. I must admit your necromantic exchange with your "Mommy" is frighteningly reminiscent of the movie, "Psycho". Do you dress your Mommy in frilly things too?
You seem to have misunderstood, I'm addressing the issue of "namesake tribes" and by "tribes" I was referring specifically to the tribes involved. And it is all accurate and well documented. I'm not in the habit of making stuff up. Laughable? You obviously know very little about the relationship between the Seminole tribe and FSU. I suggest you investigate further as to how collective cultures define the construct "relationship" within that context. There you will find your answer.
Moreover, in my view this is probably the most recognizable weakness in the ongoing debate surrounding this issue. Very few people on this thread, including yourself, understand the sociocultural and psychospiritual dynamics from a Native American perspective. Native Americans are ontologically tribal collectivists, transcendental, shamanistic, ascribed, hierarchical, ethnocentric and hegemonic in their governing structures. One will inevitably be pulling the shoelaces out of one's teeth if attempts are made interact with the core tribal framework of Native American epistemology from a individualistic, deductive, and empirically based mindset.
Trust me, that's the core intercultural communication problem here. Regardless of UND's program incentives to provide educational resources to Native Americans, it means very little in terms of establishing a relationship with the Standing Rock Tribe ruling council. They simply don't care. Although they would admit it's a good thing, it's basically insignificant to their tribe and their decision making procedures.
That's why so many are puzzled when they read accounts indicating they don't have time to discuss the nickname issue or it's too expensive to bring the issue to a vote. Of course they have time and I'm sure if there was any willingness to change whatsoever the money would suddenly appear. But that is simply their way of publically "saving face" and retaining their "honor" and it essentially means they will NEVER, and I mean NEVER change their stance on the nickname. The nickname, the UND constituency, and as in this case, college sports (i.e. ice hockey) mean very little in terms of their intrinsic worldview. Make no mistake about it, they've most likely already invoked their ancestor spirits and the answer has been deposited in their etheric soul...their ontology of self.
That is the highest level of authority and decision making among traditional Native Americans today. You'd think we would have learned that by now. But some of us are too fixated on our ego defense mechanisms and venues of entertainment to comprehend it. As a result and you can write it down, Standing Rock will not change (regardless of Murphy's favorable sentiments), and the NCAA will not either regarding their documented position in the 2007 resolution.
Again, the ND legislature is not going to bully the NCAA into recanting their position. That would inevitably create a legal precedent according to case law and effectively undermine the NCAA's legal authority and legitimacy as a governing body. Unfortunately if UND does not relinquish the nickname, I suspect by August (unless an injunction is filed by the ND legislature against the NCAA) the NCAA will have their attorneys poised and on call, as they impose immediate and binding post season sanctions on the University of North Dakota. That's like having a prison record for the rest of your life. It stays as a matter of public record.
The next step will be to encourage member institutions to refuse to play UND because of their nickname stance. That will not only effectively damage their hockey program and affect other schools as well, but it will seriously damage UND's reputation in the short term as a progressive institution of higher learning. I wouldn't recommend going down that road. That's why it's expedient, at this stage of the nearly 40 year controversy, that UND continue with the: 1) task force development to transition towards retiring the nickname by August, 2) recording the history and tradition of it's use according to the prescribed implementation plan, and 3) move towards formally staffing the "New Directions" Task Group asap under the direction of President Kelley to discuss and present options for a new nickname and logo.
Let me say that even though I'm a Gopher fan, I have no hidden agenda by commenting on the UND nickname issue. Although a rival, I still appreciate the unique motif of the UND nickname and logo. To be completely honest, I wish this wasn't happening and UND could retain them. Whereas as a UND fan, you obviously have a much more vested interest in the outcome than I do. Yet I fully believe it will be a lose-lose situation if UND does not meet the NCAA deadline, even if an injunction is filed and signed by the Governor of North Dakota.
Another tribe along with UND students oppose UND nickname.
From a Native American perspective, the decision making process doesn't always work that way, nor does it have to. Your assumptions appear to be invalid.
No. That is not the main issue.
I'll make it easy for you: I don't give a chit about the "psychospiritual dynamics" of Indians or anyone else. Cutting through your self congratulatory (and amazingly turgid) rhetoric, we're left with this: I think white folks got rights. You don't.
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Patman
Rodent of Unusual Size
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
hmm... extermination sounds so peaceful.... I'm still trying to figure out what "hereditary foes of the Sioux" mean in one of those articles.
hmm... extermination sounds so peaceful.... I'm still trying to figure out what "hereditary foes of the Sioux" mean in one of those articles.
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
The "Fighting Sioux" apologists claim the NCAA rather than UND owns the problem. Please explain how the actions of the NCAA have displeased the Sioux? Previous posts are filled with attempts to pass the blame for this particular conflict to the NCAA, Florida State, Indiana, Minnesota, just about everybody and everything EXCEPT the University of North Dakota. These attempts have not been successful.
The issue of whether or not the NCAA has the power to impose sanctions against member schools which violate NCAA policies was settled long ago, despite the "they have no right . . . " opinions which have been leveled against every such sanction. Furthermore, the North Dakota legislature lacks the authority to dictate the policies of the NHL, the NBA, the PGA, the IOC or the NCAA. Legislators in the U.S.A. are getting way too big for their britches.
The "Fighting Sioux" apologists claim the NCAA rather than UND owns the problem. Please explain how the actions of the NCAA have displeased the Sioux? Previous posts are filled with attempts to pass the blame for this particular conflict to the NCAA, Florida State, Indiana, Minnesota, just about everybody and everything EXCEPT the University of North Dakota. These attempts have not been successful.
The issue of whether or not the NCAA has the power to impose sanctions against member schools which violate NCAA policies was settled long ago, despite the "they have no right . . . " opinions which have been leveled against every such sanction. Furthermore, the North Dakota legislature lacks the authority to dictate the policies of the NHL, the NBA, the PGA, the IOC or the NCAA. Legislators in the U.S.A. are getting way too big for their britches.
WeWantMore
New member
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
The Wisconsin rules for high school mascots are absolutely crazy now. One person can lodge a complaint and get the process for changing a mascot started.
The Wisconsin rules for high school mascots are absolutely crazy now. One person can lodge a complaint and get the process for changing a mascot started.
SoCalSiouxFan
Registered User
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Face facts you know nothing. Every living person on this planet has different perspectives no one can get in the heads of all Native Americans and pretent to know how they think.
There are persons with Native American blood flowing through their veins that have moved on and care less about persons living on a reservation. By the 1870s there were many mixed breed Native Americans. They integrated into society, became farmers, business owners, or took jobs of all sorts and some even became doctors and lawyers. Today some are millionairs.
Many of these successfull and educated, Native Americans have moved on with their lives and simply don't want to be bothered with issues like whether or not some hockey team should be allowed to have a logo or not. Others do care.
I grew up with some kids that were 1/8 Native American they all had natural blonde hair and blue eyes. Later in life they all went to school at UND and they all became Sioux fans. So here is this family, Great Grand Father 100% native american, Grand Father 50%, Dad 25%, kids 1/8. All Sioux fans, even became Sioux boosters. So in fact they invested some of their hard earned money in the Fighting Sioux name. Now the NCAA wants to take it away from them.
So which family members get to vote on the name issue?
According to the NCAA none of them get a say if they are not members of the tribe.
Is that fair, is that democratic. Do all Native Americans think alike. I think the obvious answer is NO.
Also consider what would happen if the NCAA is successful in their efforts and places sanction on the Fighting Sioux. The NCAA would be in fact taking something away from these Native American Sioux boosters. They would be taking something away from every Native American student that ever attended UND, that in some way invested their time and effort into UND. Every Native American student that is in fact proud of their ancestry and the Fighting Sioux name.
There is no basis for a lawsuit now, because there are no sanctions yet. But if it happens then law firms could be literally fighting against each other to see who gets to represent thousands injured or defamed of Native Americans in class action lawsuits against the NCAA, where these victims may have good reason to believe they have been discriminated against.
It would almost be as if sanctions were imposed on UND for being too Native American.
Let the NCAA impose sanctions, this would put lots of North Dakota lawyers to work think of all the jobs it would create, and if private citizens are suing, these jobs would be created at no cost to the taxpayers, except for court costs, or maybe the NCAA can pay for those costs too, since they started this mess.
But I have a feeling that any sanction would now be illegal as a violation of state law or against public policy. And if the sanctions would be illegal or against public policy they would be void and unenforceable.
Face facts you know nothing. Every living person on this planet has different perspectives no one can get in the heads of all Native Americans and pretent to know how they think.
There are persons with Native American blood flowing through their veins that have moved on and care less about persons living on a reservation. By the 1870s there were many mixed breed Native Americans. They integrated into society, became farmers, business owners, or took jobs of all sorts and some even became doctors and lawyers. Today some are millionairs.
Many of these successfull and educated, Native Americans have moved on with their lives and simply don't want to be bothered with issues like whether or not some hockey team should be allowed to have a logo or not. Others do care.
I grew up with some kids that were 1/8 Native American they all had natural blonde hair and blue eyes. Later in life they all went to school at UND and they all became Sioux fans. So here is this family, Great Grand Father 100% native american, Grand Father 50%, Dad 25%, kids 1/8. All Sioux fans, even became Sioux boosters. So in fact they invested some of their hard earned money in the Fighting Sioux name. Now the NCAA wants to take it away from them.
So which family members get to vote on the name issue?
According to the NCAA none of them get a say if they are not members of the tribe.
Is that fair, is that democratic. Do all Native Americans think alike. I think the obvious answer is NO.
Also consider what would happen if the NCAA is successful in their efforts and places sanction on the Fighting Sioux. The NCAA would be in fact taking something away from these Native American Sioux boosters. They would be taking something away from every Native American student that ever attended UND, that in some way invested their time and effort into UND. Every Native American student that is in fact proud of their ancestry and the Fighting Sioux name.
There is no basis for a lawsuit now, because there are no sanctions yet. But if it happens then law firms could be literally fighting against each other to see who gets to represent thousands injured or defamed of Native Americans in class action lawsuits against the NCAA, where these victims may have good reason to believe they have been discriminated against.
It would almost be as if sanctions were imposed on UND for being too Native American.
Let the NCAA impose sanctions, this would put lots of North Dakota lawyers to work think of all the jobs it would create, and if private citizens are suing, these jobs would be created at no cost to the taxpayers, except for court costs, or maybe the NCAA can pay for those costs too, since they started this mess.
But I have a feeling that any sanction would now be illegal as a violation of state law or against public policy. And if the sanctions would be illegal or against public policy they would be void and unenforceable.
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Oh, so this business is a matter of overreach by state legislators in ND and not the NC$$. Whether or not their rules would survive a court challenge (and I suspect you're right) is not the issue in my mind. The issue is whether small, easily offended groups, can control the use of words and symbols by others. And how this right to control words in the public domain squares with the First Amendment. I mean, Fred Phelps has First Amendment rights to hurt the feelings of the friends and family members of dead GI's deliberately. Why can't UND potentially offend some overly sensitive Indians, even if that's not the intent? Even if the intent is honorable?
Mark Steyn puts it this way: "A “multicultural” society needs not sensitivity training but insensitivity training — that’s to say, thicker skins. The alternative is what is happening in some of the oldest free societies on earth: a state ever more comfortable in regulating the citizenry’s speech, thoughts, and jokes. There’s a word for that, and it isn’t “diversity”."
Oh, so this business is a matter of overreach by state legislators in ND and not the NC$$. Whether or not their rules would survive a court challenge (and I suspect you're right) is not the issue in my mind. The issue is whether small, easily offended groups, can control the use of words and symbols by others. And how this right to control words in the public domain squares with the First Amendment. I mean, Fred Phelps has First Amendment rights to hurt the feelings of the friends and family members of dead GI's deliberately. Why can't UND potentially offend some overly sensitive Indians, even if that's not the intent? Even if the intent is honorable?
Mark Steyn puts it this way: "A “multicultural” society needs not sensitivity training but insensitivity training — that’s to say, thicker skins. The alternative is what is happening in some of the oldest free societies on earth: a state ever more comfortable in regulating the citizenry’s speech, thoughts, and jokes. There’s a word for that, and it isn’t “diversity”."
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HarleyMC
Registered User
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Now, is that any way for an Old Pio-us man to talk?
Do you know that an angry Old man can only get so far,
Until he's reconciled the way things ought to be,
With the way things are.
Now, is that any way for an Old Pio-us man to talk?
Do you know that an angry Old man can only get so far,
Until he's reconciled the way things ought to be,
With the way things are.
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Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
Forgive me, Lord, for I have sinned.
Now, is that any way for an Old Pio-us man to talk?
Forgive me, Lord, for I have sinned.
Siouxfaninseattle
Fighting Sioux Fan Forever
Re: Fighting Sioux to fight on...For one more year at least.
While I think that the NC$$ has no right to dictate the nickname of a school's team, here's a thought. Let's let the people affected vote. That would be the people of the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes, since the NC$$ has decreed that they are the deciding authority. Let the state or UND pay for the cost of the election. We already know how Spirit Lake will vote so let's see what Standing Rock will vote. Last I checked, we live in a democracy and majority rules.
While I think that the NC$$ has no right to dictate the nickname of a school's team, here's a thought. Let's let the people affected vote. That would be the people of the Standing Rock and Spirit Lake tribes, since the NC$$ has decreed that they are the deciding authority. Let the state or UND pay for the cost of the election. We already know how Spirit Lake will vote so let's see what Standing Rock will vote. Last I checked, we live in a democracy and majority rules.