Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

A big part of the problem. Like the sibling that goes awry and sucks up mom and dad's time and resources (because they have to) we have a growing percentage of folks who marry poor career prospects with keeping up with the jones' and then look to somebody else to solve their mortgage, credit card, weight and income problems. It isn't the 1% alone buying all the luxury cars, vacation houses, smartphones, big screens, xbox's, boob jobs, boats, cruises etc.

While many think that consumption taxes would impact the 'non-rich' in a negative manner, perhaps it would help them realize they can't afford to have media rooms, 3 cars, patios with firepits, and all of the above.

The expense isn't really the problem, it's the availability of credit, which in turn is a problem because lenders know they will get bailed out.

Moral hazard works both ways: debtors and lenders alike are being sheltered from the consequences of their actions. In an ideal world, all the financial institutions that made those housing loans would have been destroyed in 2008, and all their executives would be homeless. The real tragedy of the failure to get real financial regulation (thanks, Congress) is that there is absolutely no reason why it won't happen again.

The worst grasshoppers of all are the banksters.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

The expense isn't really the problem, it's the availability of credit, which in turn is a problem because lenders know they will get bailed out.

Moral hazard works both ways: debtors and lenders alike are being sheltered from the consequences of their actions. In an ideal world, all the financial institutions who made those housing loans would have been destroyed in 2008. The real tragedy of the failure to get real financial regulation (thanks, Congress) is that there is absolutely no reason why it won't happen again.

The worst grasshoppers of all are the banksters.

The person who wanted the lavish expense needs a punishment of some sort. Otherwise, by the government promoting, heck even encouraging this bad behaviour, you're absolutely correct that it's a matter of WHEN it will happen again. This country NEEDS to go through a great depression and these feel good policies NEED to fail. Of course the "child" didn't learn, because mommy and daddy government were there to pull them out. FDR did it, Dubya and Obummer did it, who's next?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

But it is all Bush's fault!!!!

Keep repeating the lie until it becomes truth.

No, it's all Clinton's fault. Everyone knows that.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

But it is all Bush's fault!!!!

Keep repeating the lie until it becomes truth.

Wow...youre an easy sell. Debt = spending + revenues.

From Aug 2009:

The numbers could hardly be more stark: Tax receipts are on pace to drop 18 percent this year, the biggest single-year decline since the Great Depression, while the federal deficit balloons to a record $1.8 trillion.

Other figures in an Associated Press analysis underscore the recession's impact: Individual income tax receipts are down 22 percent from a year ago. Corporate income taxes are down 57 percent. Social Security tax receipts could drop for only the second time since 1940, and Medicare taxes are on pace to drop for only the third time ever.

The last time the government's revenues were this bleak, the year was 1932 in the midst of the Depression.

As much as you may try to get Bush totally off the hook...the GOP was 'around' when the country ran into the worst crisis since the Depression.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Grasshoppers are more commonly known as Baby Boomers.

and "Ants" are often found in Catholic churches and Mormon temples. It is amazing to notice the breadth and extent of the social support networks developed by both faiths in this country, without any tax payer dollars, totally from voluntary contributions.

Of course, their model works because the "grasshoppers" they help learn the same lesson as the grasshopper in the Disney film: as part of the reciprocity, they learn to use the assistance in a responsible manner.

Many times, people who receive temporary assistance at one part of their lives also provide assistance to others at a different part of their lives.

 

[sagard]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

But it is all Bush's fault!!!!

Keep repeating the lie until it becomes truth.

Can you possibly deny we have Obama due to Bushies fiscal and moral irresponsibility?

All Mitt needs to do give up the thuggish Bush era foreign policy and he will win the election. If he clings to it, things will be close and likely tip Obama's way. But guess what? Believe it or not, we will survive!

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Wow...youre an easy sell. Debt = spending + revenues.

From Aug 2009:

The numbers could hardly be more stark: Tax receipts are on pace to drop 18 percent this year, the biggest single-year decline since the Great Depression, while the federal deficit balloons to a record $1.8 trillion.

Other figures in an Associated Press analysis underscore the recession's impact: Individual income tax receipts are down 22 percent from a year ago. Corporate income taxes are down 57 percent. Social Security tax receipts could drop for only the second time since 1940, and Medicare taxes are on pace to drop for only the third time ever.

The last time the government's revenues were this bleak, the year was 1932 in the midst of the Depression.

As much as you may try to get Bush totally off the hook...the GOP was 'around' when the country ran into the worst crisis since the Depression.

Revenues are meaningless. Cut my ****ing taxes.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

The last time the government's revenues were this bleak, the year was 1932 in the midst of the Depression.

ah, great time to raise tax rates then, eh?

As much as you may try to get Bush totally off the hook...the GOP was 'around' when the country ran into the worst crisis since the Depression.

I doubt anyone wants to get bush "off the hook." An incisive article in today's Wall St. Journal makes a compelling empirical argument that lower government spending = better economic prosperity. Spending as a % of GDP fell steadily during the Clinton Presidency (with a boost from the Republican Congress and their Contract with America) while the economy boomed.

Spending started to increase during Bush and the economy started to slow.

Spending exploded under Obama from an already too-high baseline. The stimulus and other things. Spending statistics are distorted because repayment of TARP loans has been counted as reduced spending (weird accounting 301) when the TARP loan repayments "should have" been used to retire federal debt.

There's now enough of a correlation to indicate that the Keynesians are indeed wrong in the long run and Milton Friedman was right. Government spending does appear to crowd out private spending.

Keynes himself may have suspected as much, as his flippant "in the long run, we're all dead!" reply might indicate some underlying unease? he evades the question rather than answer it, after all.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

All Mitt needs to do give up the thuggish Bush era foreign policy and he will win the election. If he clings to it, things will be close and likely tip Obama's way.

I wish you were right, but in uncertain times humans become more ape-like, not less. A tub-thumping foreign policy will be seen as "strong" and "pro-American" and all those other dumb, empty phrases that militarists hide their small dicks behind. Making war noises about Iran will make Romney more popular, not less.

We are not a real bright species.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

It's official, Obama has passed Bush for spending. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_...s-increased-more-under-obama-than-under-bush/

The link shows national debt, not spending.
/hairsplitting

It would really be a feat to spend more in 4 years than someone else did in 8. But Obama will get there eventually. And the person who succeeds Obama will surpass his spending.

In other news, for the nth consecutive week, Monday was followed by Tuesday.

 

[Kepler]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

The link shows national debt, not spending.
/hairsplitting

It would really be a feat to spend more in 4 years than someone else did in 8. But Obama will get there eventually. And the person who succeeds Obama will surpass his spending.

In other news, for the nth consecutive week, Monday was followed by Tuesday.

If trend lines continue just as they are and Obama won a second term, the debt would increase 87% under him.

Increases by president:

Bush II 89%
Clinton 36%
Bush I 56% (1 term)
Reagan 189%
Carter 42% (1 term)

Every year of Reagan's presidency exceeded the debt growth rate of the most recent year of Obama's, in several cases by 3 times as much.

Basically, the debt has increased the same amount under Obama as under Bush II and Bush I and Carter. The only exceptional differences over the last 40 years were that Reagan exploded debt growth and Clinton cut it. Every other president during that time, including Obama, has been the same.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I wish you were right, but in uncertain times humans become more ape-like, not less. A tub-thumping foreign policy will be seen as "strong" and "pro-American" and all those other dumb, empty phrases that militarists hide their small dicks behind. Making war noises about Iran will make Romney more popular, not less.

If Romney is really smart, he'll propose to offload some of the responsibility for containing an aggressive Iran. That's what a good businessman would do, at any rate. One of the reasons Iran can engage in chest-beating is that it now sees itself as a regional hegemon. Solution? Help build up another country in the region that can check Iran's ambition. Iraq might be a good candidate.

Wait, what?!?

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

If trend lines continue just as they are and Obama won a second term, the debt would increase 87% under him.

Increases by president:

Bush II 89%
Clinton 36%
Bush I 56% (1 term)
Reagan 189%
Carter 42% (1 term)

That may well be, though I'd be wary of the precision of long-term estimates.

With one exception. To bet that an administration will outspend its predecessor is sort of like betting on gravity.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

If trend lines continue just as they are and Obama won a second term, the debt would increase 87% under him.

Increases by president:

Bush II 89%
Clinton 36%
Bush I 56% (1 term)
Reagan 189%
Carter 42% (1 term)

Every year of Reagan's presidency exceeded the debt growth rate of the most recent year of Obama's, in several cases by 3 times as much.

Basically, the debt has increased the same amount under Obama as under Bush II and Bush I and Carter. The only exceptional differences over the last 40 years were that Reagan exploded debt growth and Clinton cut it. Every other president during that time, including Obama, has been the same.

But Obama is an Evil Socialist and Reagan is God. So, your ramblings are moot.

 

[Bakunin]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

The worst grasshoppers of all are the banksters.

Greedy lenders and greedy borrowers are two sides of the same coin.

In the end, the lesson is the same: those who do not consider the long-term are in for a rude awakening when conditions change.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I think you have the wrong story for this example, isn't it Chicken Little who runs around saying "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" because he misinterpreted the data?

iow Tea Partiers and neo-cons.

Greedy lenders and greedy borrowers are two sides of the same coin.

There have always greedy borrowers, but the non-qualified were stopped at the gate up until to 7-10 years ago.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

One of my extended colleagues talks fiscal cliff.
An interesting test for American Politics?

Pardon Drez, who surely didn't realize the meaning of "interesting" on this board.

I'm with him on a lot of things, except I'm a bit less terrified of going over the cliff. There's always -- always -- an excuse to put off the debt until later. I'm not sure it would be the worst thing in the world, tbh, if the "auto-triggers" all fire.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

One of my extended colleagues talks fiscal cliff.
An interesting test for American Politics?

Pardon Drez, who surely didn't realize the meaning of "interesting" on this board.

If we're going over the fiscal cliff, I plan to sell. I may have to do it December 20th, and 20121221 may be when everyone sells and the circuit breakers start to trip.

 

[5mn_Major]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

ah, great time to raise tax rates then, eh?

In 2009, nobody paid taxes. How'd that work out?

The consumer didn't spend. Business didn't spend. Business didn't hire. If the government doesn't backstop the banking system (just long enough for it to recover) and it stops spending, the economy siezes up.

90s growth was driven by massive business productivity improvements vs. the 80s coming from IT, worker productivity tools, access to massive information to improve performance, communication and the initial benefits of the internet economy. If it says the 90s was all due to a tax cut, you'd better get a new source of info.

There's a time and place for everything. The time for spending increases as a patch is when nobody else is spending. The time to not spend is during the 2000s when you're kicking off multiple wars.

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

In 2009, nobody paid taxes. How'd that work out?

The consumer didn't spend. Business didn't spend. Business didn't hire. If the government doesn't backstop the banking system (just long enough for it to recover) and it stops spending, the economy siezes up.

90s growth was driven by massive business productivity improvements vs. the 80s coming from IT, worker productivity tools, access to massive information to improve performance, communication and the initial benefits of the internet economy. If it says the 90s was all due to a tax cut, you'd better get a new source of info.

There's a time and place for everything. The time for spending increases as a patch is when nobody else is spending. The time to not spend is during the 2000s when you're kicking off multiple wars.

Mitt Romney would have fixed it all with Managed Bankruptcy through the private sector.