Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

[FreshFish]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Corporate management almost always has access to capital. What matters is ROIC (return on investment capital) of the initiative. In the 90s, return on capital was a no brainer...and it showed in financial results and individual wealth generated.

and a key element of ROIC calculation is cost of funds. If the government does not access the credit market, then cost of funds is lower for business; if the government is borrowing heavily, it drives up cost of funds to business.

spending restraint --> less borrowing --> lower cost of funds --> better environment for business.

 

[amherstblackbear]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

If you compared actual growth of the debt (in number of dollars) rather than PERCENT growth, I'm sure you'll find that GW rang up more actual debt than Reagan did. All that the huge "percent change" numbers mean is that we had a relatively tiny debt back then.

I see your point, but I don't quite agree. fiscal year deficits are revenues - expenses, sure.

But long-term debt includes debt service, compound interest, and all that. Hypothetically, if one president takes the country from negligible debt to $5T, and the next guy takes the country from $5T debt to $11T debt, you can still make an argument that the first guy was a bigger part of the problem. Because he didn't have any debt to service, and he still didn't balance his budgets. The next guy can balance his budgets perfectly and still grow the debt.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

and "Ants" are often found in Catholic churches and Mormon temples. It is amazing to notice the breadth and extent of the social support networks developed by both faiths in this country, without any tax payer dollars

I suppose the parishioners walk to church, are all home-schooled (for multiple generations), generate their own electricity, pump their own water, provide their own security, put out fires by themselves, never get sick...basically, they are all hermits. Oh, and the church itself enjoys tax-exempt status which in its own right is a form of tax payer support.

But other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the play?

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Oh, and the church itself enjoys tax-exempt status which in its own right is a form of tax payer support.

This idea scares the crap out of me. I hope no other American would agree with you.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Bankers don't make people borrow and they risk their own capital. Who lends more money than bankers, encourages high risk people to borrow and risks other people's capital? Well that would be the government.

Goverment backed mtges were a drop in the bucket of those that have failed during the current housing collapse.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

It also means, in the immortal words of Joe McGrath, "See this quarter? It used to be a nickel."

If you think a Republican president over the last four years would have rolled up less debt than Obama I have an Alaskan bridge to nowhere to sell you. This debt is about inherited wars, inherited entitlement programs, inherited tax breaks, an inherited recession, and Obama's stimulus. I suspect the last accounts for well under 5% of the total contribution to debt.

The funny thing, is, though, Obummer had a mandate. He had the ability to reverse course. He didn't. I suppose now it's going to be the course's fault...

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

This idea scares the crap out of me. I hope no other American would agree with you.

Do they have to pay taxes?

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Do they have to pay taxes?

Churches? Of course not. What a bizarre idea, that we're doing them some kind of a special favor by not taking away their donations for the government coffers.

I'm also offering you a special geezer-funded support system by NOT punching you in the face. You should be filled with joyous gratitude for my remarkable benevolence. Or maybe not.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Greedy lenders and greedy borrowers are two sides of the same coin.

When you're relying on the one to keep the other in check, you're in trouble when they both figure out that they can rob you blind by colluding.

(Which segues to one of my guiding principals [which is, tangentially, the biggest failing of modern pro-business GOP-ism]: Capitalism is an unstable system. Left to itself, it devolves into monopolistic oligarchy. It requires eternal vigilance to maintain. Regulation is not a chain on capitalism; on the contrary, appropriate regulation and oversight is essential to the continued and proper operation of capitalism.)

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Churches? Of course not. What a bizarre idea, that we're doing them some kind of a special favor by not taking away their donations for the government coffers.

We are doing them a special favor by not taxing their donations. I said a form of taxpayer support, btw, not that taxpayers are directly supporting the church. However, taxes in general would be lower (or we'd be closer to balancing the budget) if we did impose the taxes as they are due. That is a form of support.

ETA: They also benefit from services the rest of us pay taxes for...police, fire, water, electricity etc. Since we the people have to pay for that, that is also a form of support.

 

[geezer]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

We are doing them a special favor by not taxing their donations. I said a form of taxpayer support, btw, not that taxpayers are directly supporting the church. However, taxes in general would be lower (or we'd be closer to balancing the budget) if we did impose the taxes as they are due. That is a form of support.

To be clear - are you saying we're "supporting" the churches in some form (not clear on your distinction) by not taxing them, because if we were taxing them it would relieve individuals of some of our tax burden? It seems impossible to me that someone could believe this. We are then also unfairly supporting aboriginal Brazilians by not making them pay our taxes, either.

Would you agree that the individuals that attend these churches and donate to them are also taxpayers who are already taxed at the same rates as atheists of the same income levels, and receive the same benefits in exchange? What justification for hitting them again, just for being religious? Does driving to church put more wear and tear on the roads than driving, I don't know, to the beach on Sundays? Maybe we need to put the clamps on beach-goers with an extra toll. We're giving them undue support by not taxing their picnic lunches that they make themselves for themselves.

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I love that line.. "if you take a walk, I'll tax your feet"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyu5sFzWLk8

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Would you agree that the individuals that attend these churches and donate to them are also taxpayers who are already taxed at the same rates as atheists of the same income levels, and receive the same benefits in exchange?

The correct argument to make would not be churches vs. atheists, it would be churches vs. other non-profits. I see no reason for churches to be treated any differently, and as far as I know, they are not. My HOA is a tax-exempt non-profit organization, and as such is treated no differently than a church would be, to the best of my knowledge.

The occasionally legitimate gripe with tax-exempt status is those churches that engage in political activity.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

To be clear - are you saying we're "supporting" the churches in some form (not clear on your distinction) by not taxing them, because if we were taxing them it would relieve individuals of some of our tax burden? It seems impossible to me that someone could believe this. We are then also unfairly supporting aboriginal Brazilians by not making them pay our taxes, either.

Would you agree that the individuals that attend these churches and donate to them are also taxpayers who are already taxed at the same rates as atheists of the same income levels, and receive the same benefits in exchange? What justification for hitting them again, just for being religious? Does driving to church put more wear and tear on the roads than driving, I don't know, to the beach on Sundays? Maybe we need to put the clamps on beach-goers with an extra toll. We're giving them undue support by not taxing their picnic lunches that they make themselves for themselves.

Aboriginal Brazilians are not living nor doing business in the United States. If they were, they would be subject to our taxes.

I worked for companies that had to pay taxes and yet I was still taxed. All kinds of groups in this country pay taxes (for example, a gym) where Churches have tax-exempt status these other businesses do not have. The church gets the same police protection as the gym, yet only one pays for it. Does that seem fair to you?

Conversely, the people who are enjoying a picnic at the beach have paid their taxes to support keeping the beach safe and clean.

 

[Craig P.]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

All kinds of groups in this country pay taxes (for example, a gym) where Churches have tax-exempt status these other businesses do not have.

Lots of non-profit organizations have tax-exempt status. The issue isn't church vs. business, it's for-profit vs. non-profit.

 

[Priceless]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Lots of non-profit organizations have tax-exempt status. The issue isn't church vs. business, it's for-profit vs. non-profit.

Some organizations have legitimate reasons for their tax-exempt status.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Lots of non-profit organizations have tax-exempt status. The issue isn't church vs. business, it's for-profit vs. non-profit.

Not to mention that the power to tax is the power to destroy (Webster/Marshall), and the government is not allowed the power to destroy a religious entity; therefore, it is not allowed the power to tax a religious entity.

As you pointed out, it's only when churches stray from their religious purposes into other areas (political activity, making profit, etc) that the state is allowed any authority to levy taxes

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

I see El Presidente is in Maryland and Pennsylvania for a series of 6 fundraisers today (Tuesday).

There is no truth to the rumor that campaign contributions collected in Maryland are subject to the state's 6% sales tax. Though if O'Malley had thought of it, he would tax it.

I also saw that that the President's day officially started at 11 AM with the daily briefing before departing at 11:45 for the fundraisers. On Monday his day began at 9:45 with the briefing. Is our peerless leader a late riser? http://www.whitehouse.gov/schedule/complete/2012-W24

 

[pirate]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Goverment backed mtges were a drop in the bucket of those that have failed during the current housing collapse.

But as a business, they are all unprofitable, I wasn't speaking only to failed mortgages. Whether it is mortgages or student loans at 3%, they are losing money on every dollar lent. Losses are greater than what they are charging much less processing, collecting, funding etc.

Nobody likes the bailouts, but we are bailing out the government every single day of the year. Who really knows the cost of sourcing, processing, funding, servicing, collecting and recovering those loans? Surely the government doesn't report all in costs on anything. Nor do they count losses against the cost of programs like this...they just lose the money and raise taxes.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Not to mention that the power to tax is the power to destroy (Webster/Marshall), and the government is not allowed the power to destroy a religious entity; therefore, it is not allowed the power to tax a religious entity

That has to be one of the most ridiculous statements ever.