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ScoobyDoo
NPC
I'll paraphrase. SOCIALISM!!!
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Like, they don't make a profit and don't engage in political activism? Churches appear to qualify.
Like, they don't make a profit and don't engage in political activism? Churches appear to qualify.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Really? All churches?
Really? All churches?
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
In the general sense, most mortgages are government-backed to some degree, given the massive amount owned by Fannie and Freddie.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
I see; you consider a church to be a "business". To me there's a world of difference between a Snap Fitness or other business, which is there for the sole purpose of making money, and a church/religious organization (although I'm sure there are many of those that exist simply to enrich their owners/organizers/etc.).
At least that explains to me where you're coming from. I'd still be curious as to whether others on here agree that churches (or any nonprofit organization) are being unfairly "supported" by NOT being taxed.
I see; you consider a church to be a "business". To me there's a world of difference between a Snap Fitness or other business, which is there for the sole purpose of making money, and a church/religious organization (although I'm sure there are many of those that exist simply to enrich their owners/organizers/etc.).
At least that explains to me where you're coming from. I'd still be curious as to whether others on here agree that churches (or any nonprofit organization) are being unfairly "supported" by NOT being taxed.
How about colleges with multi-billion dollar endowments, are they taxed on revenue from football games and private funding of research? The image of poor professors wearing ripped jackets and old loafers is long-gone.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
not only that, we've for sure got to start taxing the H out of every beer league softball team. They are provided the same police protection as Wal-Mart and other comparable businesses, yet for some reason nobody is sucking up all that revenue. It's a ripoff for everyone that's not on a team and is forced to account for these free riders and their police protection services.
not only that, we've for sure got to start taxing the H out of every beer league softball team. They are provided the same police protection as Wal-Mart and other comparable businesses, yet for some reason nobody is sucking up all that revenue. It's a ripoff for everyone that's not on a team and is forced to account for these free riders and their police protection services.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
I absolutely believe this, and have for many years. They should be paying for all government services they receive.
I absolutely believe this, and have for many years. They should be paying for all government services they receive.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
No, not ALL churches, but I think the vast majority. Do you disagree?
I think it would be a good things if the ones that cross political lines get treated as political organizations, rather than churches, but I think it's reasonable that it should be difficult to accomplish that.
No, not ALL churches, but I think the vast majority. Do you disagree?
I think it would be a good things if the ones that cross political lines get treated as political organizations, rather than churches, but I think it's reasonable that it should be difficult to accomplish that.
duper
Well-known member
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Most churches provide significant contributions to the community in the form of charitable donations, and volunteerism by parishioners in the name of the church. I wonder if taxing the church's income would make up for, say, half the value of the charitable contributions that the community would lose.
I think that it is appropriate for non-profits to be tax-exempt. Fundamentally, I see them as inherently beneficial to society, and although I wouldn't be sad if "those" churches (the ones that are clearly actually businesses run for the profit of the "minister") were taxed, all things considered I do see churches as a legit non-profit.
Most churches provide significant contributions to the community in the form of charitable donations, and volunteerism by parishioners in the name of the church. I wonder if taxing the church's income would make up for, say, half the value of the charitable contributions that the community would lose.
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
In a million years, it never would have crossed my mind to think of nonprofits this way. (like they're "getting away with something" simply by existing). I'm honestly surprised.
In a million years, it never would have crossed my mind to think of nonprofits this way. (like they're "getting away with something" simply by existing). I'm honestly surprised.
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Most churches are legitimate non-profits, but when the Catholic Dioceses in Sioux Falls sends out a DVD showing people how to vote Yes on an abortion ban while advising parishioners that they will burn in Hellfire for all eternity if they vote No, I think they might have crossed that line. Do you disagree?
I think this is a good example of a church that crosses that line:
Do you disagree?
Most churches are legitimate non-profits, but when the Catholic Dioceses in Sioux Falls sends out a DVD showing people how to vote Yes on an abortion ban while advising parishioners that they will burn in Hellfire for all eternity if they vote No, I think they might have crossed that line. Do you disagree?
I think this is a good example of a church that crosses that line:
Do you disagree?
duper
Well-known member
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
As for your picture, I have no problem with it. It's incredibly obnoxious, and whoever is behind it is obviously a total scumbag, but it doesn't trouble me overly.
I am all for creating a way to determine which churches are for-profit businesses, and revoking their non-profit status. But frankly it's hard to see a reasonable way to do it.
Finding examples of churches that cross the line is easy. But for every one of those, I'll put money down that there are MINIMUM 25 that not only don't cross that line, but contribute more money to their community than they "take." Although I am an atheist myself, I join geezer in frankly being shocked that people think this way.Most churches are legitimate non-profits, but when the Catholic Dioceses in Sioux Falls sends out a DVD showing people how to vote Yes on an abortion ban while advising parishioners that they will burn in Hellfire for all eternity if they vote No, I think they might have crossed that line. Do you disagree?
I think this is a good example of a church that crosses that line:
Do you disagree?
As for your picture, I have no problem with it. It's incredibly obnoxious, and whoever is behind it is obviously a total scumbag, but it doesn't trouble me overly.
I am all for creating a way to determine which churches are for-profit businesses, and revoking their non-profit status. But frankly it's hard to see a reasonable way to do it.
Foxton
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Overview
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
Specifically
http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=163392,00.html
But good luck to the one who tries to take tax exempt status away from a church no matter what the reason.
There's already a way.
Overview
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
Specifically
http://www.irs.gov/charities/article/0,,id=163392,00.html
But good luck to the one who tries to take tax exempt status away from a church no matter what the reason.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
If a municipal government passed a law instituting a $10 per year licensing fee to be allowed to pray in public, would that law pass constitutional muster? Not a chance - the ACLU would nail their butts to the courthouse wall faster than you can say, "secular humanism." Government does not have the power to tax religious activity, period, whether it is activity by an individual or an organization. The only tricky bit is drawing the line between what is and isn't religious activity. Churches obviously stray all the time into non-religious activities - political, commercial, etc, and those ought to be (and usually are held to be by the courts) fair game for taxation. But when it comes to actual religious activity (as the courts define and interpret it), government has no power to tax or regulate in any way - that's a fundamental tenet, explicitly spelled out in the first amendment.
Really? Look, I'm every bit as anti-religion as you are (I just try to be less of a jerk about it), but a fact is a fact.
If a municipal government passed a law instituting a $10 per year licensing fee to be allowed to pray in public, would that law pass constitutional muster? Not a chance - the ACLU would nail their butts to the courthouse wall faster than you can say, "secular humanism." Government does not have the power to tax religious activity, period, whether it is activity by an individual or an organization. The only tricky bit is drawing the line between what is and isn't religious activity. Churches obviously stray all the time into non-religious activities - political, commercial, etc, and those ought to be (and usually are held to be by the courts) fair game for taxation. But when it comes to actual religious activity (as the courts define and interpret it), government has no power to tax or regulate in any way - that's a fundamental tenet, explicitly spelled out in the first amendment.
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leswp1
New member
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Westboro Baptist Church popped into my mind.
I can see both sides here. My immediate response was to be a bit baffled that you did not feel what Priceless was saying had any merit at all. I do not blindly believe that all churches are wholey good and all should be exempt. Priceless does have a point that can't be denied about them rec'ing services. They are not self sufficient. They use all the services the rest of businesses/ citizens do. While they do serve the community, they do not serve the entire community but the causes they deem as important. THey also actively work against things many in the community believe in. Although my belief is that a church should be all inclusive this is definitely not the position of all churches. There are many who shun those who do not believe as they do and in some extreme cases seem like cults that pressure folks into doing X to avoid Hell fire. Heck, I live in suburban Mass and we have one of the later in our area. One routinely tells the kids in Sunday school those who do not believe as they do will go to Hell, naming the non-participating parents!!
I struggle with the biggest churches being tax exempt. The WBC, the fundamentalist churches that aggrssively push their agenda in a political way and some of the large churches immediately come to mind. It seems that many of them have lost sight of the worship being their main focus which is the reason they are exempt. They may do a lot of good but many are run like businesses. The WBC functions to make the Pastor (use this term very loosely) and his family money. The Catholic church is a religious entity but is obviously a political entity aswell from what I am exposed to in my area. This may not be their whole focus but it is what makes the papers and the news on TV with enough regularity that it isn't a blip. The thought of the money spent on police protecting the WBC hate mongers burns my but. The $ spent dealing with the scandal in the Catholic Church (legal, investigative, etc) in our state was a pretty penny. The Bishops standing up telling people who or how to vote for because that is what the Holy Father believes God wants when they don't pay taxes is irritating (esp since I don't believe all of what they do). The hard part is proving the pulpit is a political arm for those entities that use their influence in a political way.
That said, although I may not agree with the various churches teachings or the way they are run, I can't discount their benefit. I believe that many of the churches (excluding the WBC which seems totally steeped in evil) do enough good that they could offset whatever they use in services. The Lutheran Social Services is the 2nd largest charity in US (or was recently) and way up there in the world rankings. Locally ours works at shelters, donates building space, raises money for various causes, volunteers at Habitat for Humanity, goes on Mission trips, brings crates of food/clothing/ household wares to the shelters blah, blah, blah. Catholic Charities is an enormous entity that has world wide impact. Locally their churches are very active in numerous charitable things both financially and man-power wise. The list of soup kitchens, shelters, after school programs, tutoring, etc is endless. Since the Gov cut many of the funds for social programs in some places the only social net is a church. The tax dollars that are no longer available are made up in service by the churches.
I can't see removing the exemption because I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It does have a lot of flaws.
Long winded response now I have the time.
Westboro Baptist Church popped into my mind.
I can see both sides here. My immediate response was to be a bit baffled that you did not feel what Priceless was saying had any merit at all. I do not blindly believe that all churches are wholey good and all should be exempt. Priceless does have a point that can't be denied about them rec'ing services. They are not self sufficient. They use all the services the rest of businesses/ citizens do. While they do serve the community, they do not serve the entire community but the causes they deem as important. THey also actively work against things many in the community believe in. Although my belief is that a church should be all inclusive this is definitely not the position of all churches. There are many who shun those who do not believe as they do and in some extreme cases seem like cults that pressure folks into doing X to avoid Hell fire. Heck, I live in suburban Mass and we have one of the later in our area. One routinely tells the kids in Sunday school those who do not believe as they do will go to Hell, naming the non-participating parents!!
I struggle with the biggest churches being tax exempt. The WBC, the fundamentalist churches that aggrssively push their agenda in a political way and some of the large churches immediately come to mind. It seems that many of them have lost sight of the worship being their main focus which is the reason they are exempt. They may do a lot of good but many are run like businesses. The WBC functions to make the Pastor (use this term very loosely) and his family money. The Catholic church is a religious entity but is obviously a political entity aswell from what I am exposed to in my area. This may not be their whole focus but it is what makes the papers and the news on TV with enough regularity that it isn't a blip. The thought of the money spent on police protecting the WBC hate mongers burns my but. The $ spent dealing with the scandal in the Catholic Church (legal, investigative, etc) in our state was a pretty penny. The Bishops standing up telling people who or how to vote for because that is what the Holy Father believes God wants when they don't pay taxes is irritating (esp since I don't believe all of what they do). The hard part is proving the pulpit is a political arm for those entities that use their influence in a political way.
That said, although I may not agree with the various churches teachings or the way they are run, I can't discount their benefit. I believe that many of the churches (excluding the WBC which seems totally steeped in evil) do enough good that they could offset whatever they use in services. The Lutheran Social Services is the 2nd largest charity in US (or was recently) and way up there in the world rankings. Locally ours works at shelters, donates building space, raises money for various causes, volunteers at Habitat for Humanity, goes on Mission trips, brings crates of food/clothing/ household wares to the shelters blah, blah, blah. Catholic Charities is an enormous entity that has world wide impact. Locally their churches are very active in numerous charitable things both financially and man-power wise. The list of soup kitchens, shelters, after school programs, tutoring, etc is endless. Since the Gov cut many of the funds for social programs in some places the only social net is a church. The tax dollars that are no longer available are made up in service by the churches.
I can't see removing the exemption because I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It does have a lot of flaws.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
les - you make some good points, but you're approaching the question in a very pragmatic way that doesn't really apply to religion, given its peculiar legal status in the US. Even if you could demonstrate that a particular religion was a net drain on the community, government would still not be allowed to levy a tax targeted at people who join, e.g. they couldn't turn the street leading to their building into a toll road. It's not an economic (nor even political nor moral) question - it's purely a legal question.
les - you make some good points, but you're approaching the question in a very pragmatic way that doesn't really apply to religion, given its peculiar legal status in the US. Even if you could demonstrate that a particular religion was a net drain on the community, government would still not be allowed to levy a tax targeted at people who join, e.g. they couldn't turn the street leading to their building into a toll road. It's not an economic (nor even political nor moral) question - it's purely a legal question.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
I understand your point - but this bit bothers me. It would seem that it would be better to tax every nonprofit than to apply "good/bad" value judgments to decide which ones to tax and which ones to leave alone. I would understand a profit vs. nonprofit exemption but I'd be wary of not taxing only the "wholly good" ones.
I think most churches are taking in enough money in donations to keep the lights and heat on, and to pay a pastor; not much more. The membership dues at our church have been 50 cents a month since 1920. Of course there are those megachurches that get all the press and have a celebrity minister who is also a best-selling author.
I understand your point - but this bit bothers me. It would seem that it would be better to tax every nonprofit than to apply "good/bad" value judgments to decide which ones to tax and which ones to leave alone. I would understand a profit vs. nonprofit exemption but I'd be wary of not taxing only the "wholly good" ones.
I think most churches are taking in enough money in donations to keep the lights and heat on, and to pay a pastor; not much more. The membership dues at our church have been 50 cents a month since 1920. Of course there are those megachurches that get all the press and have a celebrity minister who is also a best-selling author.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Then there comes the tough portion of it all: combining political activity with religious activity. As an example, throwing into a prayer the hopes that the people of a municipality (or county, or state, or country, whatever the case may be) vote in a certain manner. I specifically remember an instance when I was in school (I went to a parochial school for a few years) when an abortion bill was presented to Clinton for his consideration, and the class openly prayed for a veto.
Then there comes the tough portion of it all: combining political activity with religious activity. As an example, throwing into a prayer the hopes that the people of a municipality (or county, or state, or country, whatever the case may be) vote in a certain manner. I specifically remember an instance when I was in school (I went to a parochial school for a few years) when an abortion bill was presented to Clinton for his consideration, and the class openly prayed for a veto.
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