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Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

5mn_Major said:
I assumed he had taken a black and white stance saying govt involvement should be absolutely minimal.

Perhaps youre right and he wants a bevy of services and involvement sometimes...then it comes down to the old adage that there is no such thing as a supporter of small govt. Everyone wants others to help pay for the services they prefer...and don't want to pay for services that others prefer.

So the feds are horrible and state govt is great. Federal govt can easily provide most state services and states could provide many federal services...corporations are not confederations...they provide services every day nationally. Are you saying that you're cool with higher taxes, higher regulations and a nanny state if they result at the state level? Then let's be clear...you're not much of a small govt conservative nor a fiscal conservative.

I just don't think folks should go around claiming that they hate govt being in peoples lives...when they mean that they want govt services they want and don't want the govt services that others want.
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When you don't see shades of gray, but only try to color everything as black and white, you read a lot more or less into pretty much everything, as you do here. There are a lot of functions, as others have pointed out, that naturally are provided by a given level of government, whether national, state, or local.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FreshFish said:
For purposes of our discussion I have used principles, not self-interest, as my criteria. You grow tiresome in trying to display how clever you are. If you cannot demonstrate a willingness to consider alternate points of view and engage in collaborative evaluation, then what's the point of posting anything at all?
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To arrogantly boast about how smart you are, of course. Why is anyone in this discussion?
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

To be clear, govt has an important role to play in our lives. Where they play and who plays are important questions. But when they look in the mirror...everyone to one extent or another likes most of the govt services provided.

FlagDUDE08 said:
The chances are better that some states won't provide said services through forced payment while other states will, and in this country, you have the freedom to choose your state of residence. Therefore, pick and choose what you wish to pay for. One thing I do see happening, unfortunately, in the case of state enforcement, is federal bullying and blackmail into states claiming laws. It happened all the time in the 70's through federal highway funding (national speed limit enforcement, age of alcohol purchase, open containers), and it still exists to this day (take a look at some of Tennessee's laws).
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Agreed pretty much across the board. Through the last decade or so, the feds have been shifting funds away from states leaving them having to make drastic cuts...and that's bad.

I'm of the opinion that we've entered a new era of state based competition and that includes state govt involvement. Labor is mobile, anyone can work from anywhere. As a result, its full on state competition for people and resources. TN vs. UT...HI vs. NY. Whoever has the best quality of life wins. I'm in MN specifically because I think it ranks near the top (even with the weather :( )
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDude...

Yep. Spot on. But it's SO antiquated. :D
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

5mn_Major said:
To be clear, govt has an important role to play in our lives. Where they play and who plays are important questions. But when they look in the mirror...everyone to one extent or another likes most of the govt services provided.



Agreed pretty much across the board. Through the last decade or so, the feds have been shifting funds away from states leaving them having to make drastic cuts...and that's bad.

I'm of the opinion that we've entered a new era of state based competition and that includes state govt involvement. Labor is mobile, anyone can work from anywhere. As a result, its full on state competition for people and resources. TN vs. UT...HI vs. NY. Whoever has the best quality of life wins. I'm in MN specifically because I think it ranks near the top (even with the weather :( )
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The biggest problem is federal mandates that are technically state mandates (but federally enforced through fiscal bullying). If it's a federal law, enforce and fund it as such. The worst part is that the court defended the bullying (South Dakota vs. Dole)
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FreshFish said:
I am saying flat out that what is in society's best interest is less federal government involvement in our lives and what is in society's best interest are wider and deeper and more integrated social groups,
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This reads a little too strongly as all or none to me...unless I'm misinterpreting. I would agree, if I resided in Utopia but don't really agree regarding the federal govt. / best interests assertion per members of society in America today. I do agree with the second, associated observation concerning social connection outside of govt...but that impresses me as utopian as well. Thinking there are too many that don't care at all...or enough about the conditions of fellow members of society in the US that are vastly different than their own...and there are many simply not in a position to assist or be involved in social channels for the benefit of others. Also a little skeptical about social groups having the juice to favorably represent many of the best interests of various segments in American society, against certain entities that really don't have the best interests of those segments as an objective. Juice that the fed govt. might have. Juice that likely only the federal govt. has.

FreshFish said:
a function that once was served by the local church / temple / mosque. When our kids asked why we went to Church every Sunday, we told them it was so that we could check in on our neighbors to make sure they were all right and also so that our neighbors could see that we were all right too. It wasn't just the service, it was the coffee and donuts afterward, that helped hold the community together. We've lost that connection, by and large, and have yet to find a satisfactory replacement. Too much reliance on government compulsion will not bring it back; in fact it pushes us further away from that communal connection instead.
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For a kid raised in a fervently Christian / Catholic environment in a close knit group of small communities with three associated parishes and a couple parochial schools this was definitely not the reason anyone was given for attending Mass on Sunday. The social connecting aspect may have been a by product...a good by product the church typically referred to as fellowship...but first and foremost it's a serious obligation for the Catholic to honor God and Christ the Savior. In Catholic doctrine if I miss Sunday Mass and die before I confess and am subsequently forgiven...no pearly gates for me.

You're right about the deterioration of that worship associated fellowship, and the social benefits thereof. I won't claim to know the cause of that. There are very few members of my parish younger than me and the congregation is getting old. I surely wouldn't point the finger at government reliance as a cause or factor in that, in any way. This particular parish helps as many as they can in any way they can but surely does not have the resources to satisfy all the need in the community.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

More bad news for public sector union goons. The Supreme Court ruled (7-2) SEIU can't just take money from non-members in a closed shop situation to fund its political activities without notifying them. And giving them a chance to opt out. It's been a rough patch, hasn't it? Scott Walker's reforms pass. Scott Walker survives recall. And now this. Imagine, the Supremes have ruled that while union goons have First Amendment rights, those rights don't include just taking money from people who don't support their political goals. Looks like His Coverupness' most frequent WH visitor (ex SEIU head Andy Stern) is gonna have to log in some more oval office time. Free at last. Free at last. Thank God Almighty, we're free at last.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-06-21-10-12-54
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDUDE08 said:
And this is 2012. No wonder left-wingers have no brain, they can't count...
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Forgive the typo oh glorious One. I'll remember that in case you ever make a mistake...

It was created September 17, 1787 and ratified on June 21, 1788.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

joecct said:
Now.. Look at the projection - in 28 years 55%. That makes them the majority.
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Not s**t 55% is a majority, but a prediction 28 years out by the UN doesn't jibe with, "Wonder how soon most of southern Europe will be Muslim?" Not soon and possibly not at all.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Yep. My Boston Terrier pup Linear has gained 10 pounds in the last 6 months.

He'll weigh as much as I do by the time he turns 9.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Old Pio said:
More bad news for public sector union goons. The Supreme Court ruled (7-2) SEIU can't just take money from non-members in a closed shop situation to fund its political activities without notifying them. And giving them a chance to opt out. It's been a rough patch, hasn't it? Scott Walker's reforms pass. Scott Walker survives recall. And now this. Imagine, the Supremes have ruled that while union goons have First Amendment rights, those rights don't include just taking money from people who don't support their political goals. Looks like His Coverupness' most frequent WH visitor (ex SEIU head Andy Stern) is gonna have to log in some more oval office time. Free at last. Free at last. Thank God Almighty, we're free at last.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-06-21-10-12-54
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Interesting that it was 7-2, so two of the liberal members of the court went against the unions and their confiscatory ways.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Bob Gray said:
Interesting that it was 7-2, so two of the liberal members of the court went against the unions and their confiscatory ways.
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Ginsburg and Sotomayor with separate, concurring opinions.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Bob Gray said:
Interesting that it was 7-2, so two of the liberal members of the court went against the unions and their confiscatory ways.
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I believe that Sotomayor and Ginsburg wrote the majority's reasoning for ruling, while Kagan and Breyer (I keep getting Breyer and John Paul Stevens mixed up) wrote the dissent.
 
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