FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Which country plays the role of Poland?
Which country plays the role of Poland?
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Hmm...I had not considered it in this context, now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a partial correlation between the expansion of the modern welfare state and these outcomes.
Let's consider "average wages" first. There's been plenty of academic studies that point out the increasing disincentive to work because the marginal cost of moving from "just below the line" to "just above the line" is so high. So, if as an unintended consequence of a well-meaning yet poorly-thought-out policy, you wind up suppressing the wages of people on the low end of the scale, it is an arithmetic inevitability that average wages will remain stagnant even if wages for many people do grow over time.
Regarding income inequality, I would not be at all surprised that many people's sense of civic duty has been truncated over time. If you read The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, you'll see several examples in which private citizens took a lead role in providing civil service: the first fire department in Philadelphia was a voluntary association, as was the first "public" library. Or look at TIAA, which was founded by Andrew Carnegie to assist university professors in obtaining a retirement pension, and became the first pension plan that used employer-employee matching contributions supplemented by charitable donations.
Some wealthy people who normally wouldn't give a d*mn about civic duty nevertheless would still participate because they did not want to behave shamefully in front of their peers ("I'm going to donate some money just to keep that pr*ck Franklin from bad-mouthing me to others"). That country club peer pressure has been replaced by complaining about taxes, wouldn't you think? and for some, "why do I need to bother doing anything to help since they now have all these government programs?"
To me however, these are ancillary side issues. The central issue is what we want to see as a healthy society and how much responsibility we take on to contribute to it. I am saying flat out that what is in society's best interest is less federal government involvement* in our lives and what is in society's best interest are wider and deeper and more integrated social groups, a function that once was served by the local church / temple / mosque. When our kids asked why we went to Church every Sunday, we told them it was so that we could check in on our neighbors to make sure they were all right and also so that our neighbors could see that we were all right too. It wasn't just the service, it was the coffee and donuts afterward, that helped hold the community together. We've lost that connection, by and large, and have yet to find a satisfactory replacement. Too much reliance on government compulsion will not bring it back; in fact it pushes us further away from that communal connection instead.
If you have any understanding at all of how neural networks work, the idea of partial correlation from multiple inputs would make sense to you. If you know nothing about neural networks, then this might sound like a foreign language.
*ADDENDUM: "less" of something excessive still leaves plenty of room for a moderate amount to remain.
Hmm...I had not considered it in this context, now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a partial correlation between the expansion of the modern welfare state and these outcomes.
Let's consider "average wages" first. There's been plenty of academic studies that point out the increasing disincentive to work because the marginal cost of moving from "just below the line" to "just above the line" is so high. So, if as an unintended consequence of a well-meaning yet poorly-thought-out policy, you wind up suppressing the wages of people on the low end of the scale, it is an arithmetic inevitability that average wages will remain stagnant even if wages for many people do grow over time.
Regarding income inequality, I would not be at all surprised that many people's sense of civic duty has been truncated over time. If you read The Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin, you'll see several examples in which private citizens took a lead role in providing civil service: the first fire department in Philadelphia was a voluntary association, as was the first "public" library. Or look at TIAA, which was founded by Andrew Carnegie to assist university professors in obtaining a retirement pension, and became the first pension plan that used employer-employee matching contributions supplemented by charitable donations.
Some wealthy people who normally wouldn't give a d*mn about civic duty nevertheless would still participate because they did not want to behave shamefully in front of their peers ("I'm going to donate some money just to keep that pr*ck Franklin from bad-mouthing me to others"). That country club peer pressure has been replaced by complaining about taxes, wouldn't you think? and for some, "why do I need to bother doing anything to help since they now have all these government programs?"
To me however, these are ancillary side issues. The central issue is what we want to see as a healthy society and how much responsibility we take on to contribute to it. I am saying flat out that what is in society's best interest is less federal government involvement* in our lives and what is in society's best interest are wider and deeper and more integrated social groups, a function that once was served by the local church / temple / mosque. When our kids asked why we went to Church every Sunday, we told them it was so that we could check in on our neighbors to make sure they were all right and also so that our neighbors could see that we were all right too. It wasn't just the service, it was the coffee and donuts afterward, that helped hold the community together. We've lost that connection, by and large, and have yet to find a satisfactory replacement. Too much reliance on government compulsion will not bring it back; in fact it pushes us further away from that communal connection instead.
If you have any understanding at all of how neural networks work, the idea of partial correlation from multiple inputs would make sense to you. If you know nothing about neural networks, then this might sound like a foreign language.
*ADDENDUM: "less" of something excessive still leaves plenty of room for a moderate amount to remain.
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ScoobyDoo
NPC
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
They needed to find a flip-flopper to play a flip-flopper.
They needed to find a flip-flopper to play a flip-flopper.
bronconick
Yep, still here
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
An out of touch rich Massachusetts liberal with no personality or concrete beliefs to play...well you get the point.
An out of touch rich Massachusetts liberal with no personality or concrete beliefs to play...well you get the point.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Are you saying that living in the city, you don't want police protection in the case of a break in? Or if you live in the country, a road leading to your house? Or to ensure there isn't mercury in your childrens food?
Oh...you want government involvement when it benefits you. I understand.
Are you saying that living in the city, you don't want police protection in the case of a break in? Or if you live in the country, a road leading to your house? Or to ensure there isn't mercury in your childrens food?
Oh...you want government involvement when it benefits you. I understand.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Oh, and police protection is a local function, though who knows if/when the feds might horn in on that also.
He didn't say no involvement.
Oh, and police protection is a local function, though who knows if/when the feds might horn in on that also.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Police: municipal/county/state.
Roads: http://www.economicsjunkie.com/priv...4-million-road-repair-job-for-free-in-8-days/
Mercury: Caveat emptor. Don't be a sucker.
Police: municipal/county/state.
Roads: http://www.economicsjunkie.com/priv...4-million-road-repair-job-for-free-in-8-days/
Mercury: Caveat emptor. Don't be a sucker.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
They already have. It's called these:
They already have. It's called these:
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
To clarify, is the data you are looking at saying the same person makes the same wage they did 20 years ago or that the average wages for all working people are the same as they were 20 years ago?
Individual income or household income?
Are you talking wages alone or wages and benefits?
Since some percentage of government assistance goes to people who are working, is that assistance counted in throughout the 20 year period? If yes, are things like housing assistance adjusted for the cost of housing as the markets rise and fall?
To clarify, is the data you are looking at saying the same person makes the same wage they did 20 years ago or that the average wages for all working people are the same as they were 20 years ago?
Individual income or household income?
Are you talking wages alone or wages and benefits?
Since some percentage of government assistance goes to people who are working, is that assistance counted in throughout the 20 year period? If yes, are things like housing assistance adjusted for the cost of housing as the markets rise and fall?
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Another person who cannot distinguish between "some" and "all or none"? What do they teach in schools these days?
Also, are you really unaware that police protection is provided by municipalities, not the federal government? or are useful distinctions mere annoyances to be swept aside by the majesty of your righteousness? I thought we had settled all this several times before....sigh....
The most valuable government services generally are the most local: police, fire, zoning enforcement, sewage treatment, water supply, libraries, education, and the like.
States also provide some valuable services: highway maintenance, regulation of public utilities, insurance oversight, professional registration, licensure, courts.
The federal government provides some valuable services: national defense, regulation of interstate commmerce, including food safety, drug safety, etc.
However, the federal government also is involved in way too many areas and goes too far to the extent of its involvement over and beyond those reasonable common-sense areas. Several cabinet departments are either redundant or superflous, for example.
There is generally speaking an inverse relationship between the level of government intrusion and the value of government services: those levels of government that provide the most value in return for $1 typically are the least instrusive (and have the lowest tax burden) while those levels of government that provide the least value in return for $1 typicaly are the most intrusive and for many of us have the highest tax burden.
Now, are you able to appreciate distinctions between "some" and "none"? or is that too "taxing" for you?
Another person who cannot distinguish between "some" and "all or none"? What do they teach in schools these days?
Also, are you really unaware that police protection is provided by municipalities, not the federal government? or are useful distinctions mere annoyances to be swept aside by the majesty of your righteousness? I thought we had settled all this several times before....sigh....
The most valuable government services generally are the most local: police, fire, zoning enforcement, sewage treatment, water supply, libraries, education, and the like.
States also provide some valuable services: highway maintenance, regulation of public utilities, insurance oversight, professional registration, licensure, courts.
The federal government provides some valuable services: national defense, regulation of interstate commmerce, including food safety, drug safety, etc.
However, the federal government also is involved in way too many areas and goes too far to the extent of its involvement over and beyond those reasonable common-sense areas. Several cabinet departments are either redundant or superflous, for example.
There is generally speaking an inverse relationship between the level of government intrusion and the value of government services: those levels of government that provide the most value in return for $1 typically are the least instrusive (and have the lowest tax burden) while those levels of government that provide the least value in return for $1 typicaly are the most intrusive and for many of us have the highest tax burden.
Now, are you able to appreciate distinctions between "some" and "none"? or is that too "taxing" for you?
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
I assumed he had taken a black and white stance saying govt involvement should be absolutely minimal.
Perhaps youre right and he wants a bevy of services and involvement sometimes...then it comes down to the old adage that there is no such thing as a supporter of small govt. Everyone wants others to help pay for the services they prefer...and don't want to pay for services that others prefer.
So the feds are horrible and state govt is great. Federal govt can easily provide most state services and states could provide many federal services...corporations are not confederations...they provide services every day nationally. Are you saying that you're cool with higher taxes, higher regulations and a nanny state if they result at the state level? Then let's be clear...you're not much of a small govt conservative nor a fiscal conservative.
I just don't think folks should go around claiming that they hate govt being in peoples lives...when they mean that they want govt services they want and don't want the govt services that others want.
He didn't say no involvement.
Oh, and police protection is a local function, though who knows if/when the feds might horn in on that also.
I assumed he had taken a black and white stance saying govt involvement should be absolutely minimal.
Perhaps youre right and he wants a bevy of services and involvement sometimes...then it comes down to the old adage that there is no such thing as a supporter of small govt. Everyone wants others to help pay for the services they prefer...and don't want to pay for services that others prefer.
So the feds are horrible and state govt is great. Federal govt can easily provide most state services and states could provide many federal services...corporations are not confederations...they provide services every day nationally. Are you saying that you're cool with higher taxes, higher regulations and a nanny state if they result at the state level? Then let's be clear...you're not much of a small govt conservative nor a fiscal conservative.
I just don't think folks should go around claiming that they hate govt being in peoples lives...when they mean that they want govt services they want and don't want the govt services that others want.
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
so, you are incapable of moderation....it is either "all" or "none" with you and nothing in between. You might want to check out Venn diagrams sometime, they are an extremely useful logical tool. Sometimes circles overlap, you know.
so, you are incapable of moderation....it is either "all" or "none" with you and nothing in between. You might want to check out Venn diagrams sometime, they are an extremely useful logical tool. Sometimes circles overlap, you know.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
No problem, then you're just as most people, you like many govt services and don't like others.
No problem, then you're just as most people, you like many govt services and don't like others.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
The chances are better that some states won't provide said services through forced payment while other states will, and in this country, you have the freedom to choose your state of residence. Therefore, pick and choose what you wish to pay for. One thing I do see happening, unfortunately, in the case of state enforcement, is federal bullying and blackmail into states claiming laws. It happened all the time in the 70's through federal highway funding (national speed limit enforcement, age of alcohol purchase, open containers), and it still exists to this day (take a look at some of Tennessee's laws).
The chances are better that some states won't provide said services through forced payment while other states will, and in this country, you have the freedom to choose your state of residence. Therefore, pick and choose what you wish to pay for. One thing I do see happening, unfortunately, in the case of state enforcement, is federal bullying and blackmail into states claiming laws. It happened all the time in the 70's through federal highway funding (national speed limit enforcement, age of alcohol purchase, open containers), and it still exists to this day (take a look at some of Tennessee's laws).
P
Priceless
Guest
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Because when left to their own devices, certain state governments have proven that they aren't capable of, or interested in, providing equal treatment to all their citizens.
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
State: State infrastructure, ensure no barriers to intrastate commerce. Promote state to business. State standards for professions and business.
Local: schools, cops, fire, sidewalks, public safety.
Me: Family, those less fortunate than me
the late Tip O'Neill said "All politics is local." To me, my local town/county should have the most effect on what I do, not some monster department in DC.
Feds: Defense of nation, ensure no barriers to interstate commerce, interstate roads, rivers, and waterways.
State: State infrastructure, ensure no barriers to intrastate commerce. Promote state to business. State standards for professions and business.
Local: schools, cops, fire, sidewalks, public safety.
Me: Family, those less fortunate than me
the late Tip O'Neill said "All politics is local." To me, my local town/county should have the most effect on what I do, not some monster department in DC.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Yet your boy, Lincoln, thought it would be best to jail them into the country instead of letting them secede.
Yet your boy, Lincoln, thought it would be best to jail them into the country instead of letting them secede.
FlagDUDE08
Banned
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
Here's what Congress should do. I bet several people on here won't know the source of this:
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;
Here's what Congress should do. I bet several people on here won't know the source of this:
To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us
For purposes of our discussion I have used principles, not self-interest, as my criteria. You grow tiresome in trying to display how clever you are. If you cannot demonstrate a willingness to consider alternate points of view and engage in collaborative evaluation, then what's the point of posting anything at all?
For purposes of our discussion I have used principles, not self-interest, as my criteria. You grow tiresome in trying to display how clever you are. If you cannot demonstrate a willingness to consider alternate points of view and engage in collaborative evaluation, then what's the point of posting anything at all?
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