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Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

joecct said:
Recent discussions have put that ascertain in doubt. It may be older. I'd like to believe it's circa 30 AD
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Source?

Relic-making was a great medieval cottage industry. Reliquaries became genuinely sanctified places, not because some enterprising monk palmed off somebody's finger bone as John the Baptist's, but because of all the sincere holiness of the pilgrims who visited them.

Faith and fact are non-intersection spheres. That we live in both as fully integrated humans doesn't change that fairy stories and historical events are entirely separate things. People get into trouble when they try to reconcile them. It doesn't work, and it degrades both.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Who cares...

As for the Government...your Republican lead Banking Committee sure is taking Jamie Dimon to the woodshed over losing $7 billion...errrr or:

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:415377" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-june-14-2012/bank-yankers">The Daily Show with Jon Stewart</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

<div style="background-color:#000000;width:520px;"><div style="padding:4px;"><iframe src="http://media.mtvnservices.com/embed/mgid:cms:video:thedailyshow.com:415378" width="512" height="288" frameborder="0"></iframe><p style="text-align:left;background-color:#FFFFFF;padding:4px;margin-top:4px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px;"><b><a href="http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-june-14-2012/bank-yankers---jamie-dimon-on-capitol-hill">The Daily Show with Jon Stewart</a></b><br/>Get More: <a href='http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/'>Daily Show Full Episodes</a>,<a href='http://www.indecisionforever.com/'>Political Humor & Satire Blog</a>,<a href='http://www.facebook.com/thedailyshow'>The Daily Show on Facebook</a></p></div></div>

Ahh...corruption at its finest! :)
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Kepler said:
Source?

Relic-making was a great medieval cottage industry. Reliquaries became genuinely sanctified places, not because some enterprising monk palmed off somebody's finger bone as John the Baptist's, but because of all the sincere holiness of the pilgrims who visited them.

Faith and fact are non-intersection spheres. That we live in both as fully integrated humans doesn't change that fairy stories and historical events are entirely separate things. People get into trouble when they try to reconcile them. It doesn't work, and it degrades both.
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I see what you did. You start out saying faith and then substitute fairy stories. As if they are necessarily the same. People put faith in all sorts of things, and sometimes it's warranted, sometimes not.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Kepler said:
Source?
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(How is this discussion in the politics thread and how did we get hear from "The Grasshopper and the Ant" anyway? oh yeah, my bad,... I compared "private citizens who voluntarily share their personal surplus with people in need" to the "ants in the Disney version of the fable"....and so naturally we are now discussing the shroud of Turin!)


History Channel had a two-hour documentary on the Shroud of Turin maybe in March or April 2011?

IF anyone else saw it, maybe we can compare recollections? (a) it was about 90 minutes longer than it "needed" to be to convey the same information, (b) the linen could not be proven not to be contemporaneous with the time (i.e. about 2 millenia ago, give or take), (c) no one really has provided a plausible explanation how the image got there, and (d) the image on the shroud corresponds to a two-dimensional mapping of a three-dimensional surface.

That's the data portion that I remember*. Now, a lot of people put great stock in (d) because of the inference they draw about (c).





* ok, (a) is an editorial comment, not "data". (d) however was demonstrated pretty conclusively. Note that no causality is implied, merely a correspondence is observed.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Bob Gray said:
I see what you did. You start out saying faith and then substitute fairy stories. As if they are necessarily the same. People put faith in all sorts of things, and sometimes it's warranted, sometimes not.
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Semantics. Let's call them "non-factually-determined truths." I used fairy stories not as a derogatory term but because I thought it was obvious that the legitimacy of, say, Hansel and Gretel has nothing to do with whether there are archeological remains of a gingerbread house. If you argued that it did, everybody would know you were missing the point. Other attempts at describing their non-intersection have been "natural and supernatural" (which has gotten a name even worse than fairy stories) and "physics and metaphysics" (which is now very confused thanks to what philosophers have done with metaphysics -- thanks a lot, Leibnitz).

The point is that faith hasn't anything to do with fact, just as fact hasn't anything to do with faith. Running a scientific experiment to date the Shroud of Turin doesn't say anything about Christianity (other than that there have been charlatans who have made a lot of money off suckers, but that is hardly limited to Christianity), just as Genesis has nothing to say about the science of the creation of the world. They are both "true," by different yardsticks, that are incommensurate, which is why it's perfectly human to hold them both in your head as truths at the same time.

Both are maps. The territory is Kant's hoary old "thing-in-itself," and that (even whether or not there is a that) is unknowable.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Kepler said:
Running a scientific experiment [on] the Shroud of Turin doesn't say anything about what matters in Christianity,.
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I tell ya, I was more than a little freaked out by the portion of the documentary that illustrated how well the image on the shroud corresponded to a two-dimensional mapping of a three-dimensional surface.

Someone with the right kind of sophisticated computer equipment and programming (think of Angela from Bones will all of her hologram studies, except in real life) actually reconstructed the three-dimensional face that would correspond to the two-dimensional mapping found in the image on the shroud.

You can try to claim coincidence, I'm going to stick with the "neither confirm nor deny" crowd for now on this one, pending further research. it was eerie in the old-fashioned sense of the word. I thought I actually felt the hair on the back of my neck starting to stand up a little. brr.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FreshFish said:
(How is this discussion in the politics thread and how did we get hear from "The Grasshopper and the Ant" anyway? oh yeah, my bad,... I compared "private citizens who voluntarily share their personal surplus with people in need" to the "ants in the Disney version of the fable"....and so naturally we are now discussing the shroud of Turin!)


History Channel had a two-hour documentary on the Shroud of Turin maybe in March or April 2011?

IF anyone else saw it, maybe we can compare recollections? (a) it was about 90 minutes longer than it "needed" to be to convey the same information, (b) the linen could not be proven not to be contemporaneous with the time (i.e. about 2 millenia ago, give or take), (c) no one really has provided a plausible explanation how the image got there, and (d) the image on the shroud corresponds to a two-dimensional mapping of a three-dimensional surface.

That's the data portion that I remember*. Now, a lot of people put great stock in (d) because of the inference they draw about (c).





* ok, (a) is an editorial comment, not "data". (d) however was demonstrated pretty conclusively. Note that no causality is implied, merely a correspondence is observed.
Click to expand...

The wiki on it mentions contamination in the labs that tested the carbon dating or whatever, but said the error was within two centuries, which still leaves it 10-11 centuries short. The other claim is that the part that was tested was a "medieval repair job" essentially.

Snark requires me to ask if this show was done by the same History Channel producers that have aired 42 episodes of Ancient Aliens insanity so far.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

bronconick said:
Snark requires me to ask if this show was done by the same History Channel producers that have aired 42 episodes of Ancient Aliens insanity so far.
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If it was good enough for In Search Of..., it's good enough for me, dangit.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Kepler said:
Semantics. Let's call them "non-factually-determined truths." I used fairy stories not as a derogatory term but because I thought it was obvious that the legitimacy of, say, Hansel and Gretel has nothing to do with whether there are archeological remains of a gingerbread house. If you argued that it did, everybody would know you were missing the point. Other attempts at describing their non-intersection have been "natural and supernatural" (which has gotten a name even worse than fairy stories) and "physics and metaphysics" (which is now very confused thanks to what philosophers have done with metaphysics -- thanks a lot, Leibnitz).

The point is that faith hasn't anything to do with fact, just as fact hasn't anything to do with faith. Running a scientific experiment to date the Shroud of Turin doesn't say anything about Christianity (other than that there have been charlatans who have made a lot of money off suckers, but that is hardly limited to Christianity), just as Genesis has nothing to say about the science of the creation of the world. They are both "true," by different yardsticks, that are incommensurate, which is why it's perfectly human to hold them both in your head as truths at the same time.

Both are maps. The territory is Kant's hoary old "thing-in-itself," and that (even whether or not there is a that) is unknowable.
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Agreed on the shroud. I've always thought that kind of stuff tends to be very distracting from what Jesus would want us focusing on as Christians. Plus, I've always been highly doubtful as to its authenticity, not even getting into the next piece of bacon that someone sees Jesus face in or something.

On Genesis, what of course it's not anywhere near a scientific account, if it actually were a true account of the world's creation (setting aside the argument of whether it is or not for now), it certainly could help shed light on science's understanding of things, while certainly not being anywhere near a full scientific documentation of the world's creation (which of course it wasn't intended to be).

Another example would be the Hittites, who are mentioned in places in the Bible, but for a long time they were held up as evidence that the Bible wasn't historically accurate, as there was no archaelogical documentation of the Hittites. Well, then relatively recently there were significant archeological findings that document the Hittites, which do jive with their mentions in the Bible. On the other hand, if an archeological find were made that somehow clearly went against accounts that are in the Bible, it's reasonable to question the inconsistency between Biblical accounts and archeological findings.

From the Hittite wiki page:
"Before the discoveries, the only source of information about Hittites had been the Old Testament (see Biblical Hittites). Francis William Newman expressed the critical view common in the early 19th Century, that if the Hittites existed at all "no Hittite king could have compared in power to the King of Judah..."."
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Can we start a All Things God Thread so you guys can talk about this somewhere else? Bring Foxton with ya while you are at it :D
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDUDE08 said:
Scooby and Priceless can come, too.
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Oh sure, lump me in just because I borrowed a joke from George Carlin.

Meanwhile at the White House, Neil Munro of The Daily Caller thought it would be a good idea to interrupt the president during an announcement. The really great part of this story in a moment, but here's a comment from GWB43 spokesman, Tony Fratto, via Twitter
Reporters don't interrupt presidential statements. Period. @NeilMunroDC should be banned from WH.
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Munro was upset by the announcement regarding immigration, which grants amnesty to those illegal immigrants who have served in the military and others. Munro questioned allowing foreigners in to take jobs while Americans were unemployed. The delicious irony here is that Munro is an immigrant himself. So maybe he should quit his job and move back to Ireland...
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Priceless said:
Oh sure, lump me in just because I borrowed a joke from George Carlin.

Meanwhile at the White House, Neil Munro of The Daily Caller thought it would be a good idea to interrupt the president during an announcement. The really great part of this story in a moment, but here's a comment from GWB43 spokesman, Tony Fratto, via Twitter


Munro was upset by the announcement regarding immigration, which grants amnesty to those illegal immigrants who have served in the military and others. Munro questioned allowing foreigners in to take jobs while Americans were unemployed. The delicious irony here is that Munro is an immigrant himself. So maybe he should quit his job and move back to Ireland...
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One big difference: he came in the correct way. He didn't hop the fence and punch out a kid.

"He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation." --Declaration of Independence
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

FlagDUDE08 said:
One big difference: he came in the correct way. He didn't hop the fence and punch out a kid.
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Whereas the illegal immigrants Obama was talking about did...:rolleyes:

And that's besides the point. If he cared so much about the unemployed Americans, he can set the example and give his job to an American.
 
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Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Priceless said:
Whereas the illegal immigrants Obama was talking about did...:rolleyes:

And that's besides the point. If he cared so much about the unemployed Americans, he can set the example and give his job to an American.
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The Kenyan should do the same thing.
 
Re: Elections 2012:What unites us is greater than what divides us

Handyman said:
Can we start a All Things God Thread so you guys can talk about this somewhere else? Bring Foxton with ya while you are at it :D
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As if I could stand with these titans of apologetics, these kings of comedy, these pillars upon which the very Earth stands!
 
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