Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Ryan, true to his nature, does seem to be taking the most logically consistent position here: If one believes a fetus deserves full protection under the law from the point of conception and should not pay the price for the sin of its conception. Unfortunately that logical consistency can lead to some very ugly practical results.

The problem with that sentiment is nobody really gives a **** about Federalism as a principal. The moment Roe were to go down (and its legal reasoning always struck me as a problematic), Republicans would face strong pressure to create a national ban, especially if they controlled Congress. Democrats would meanwhile switch to demanding the sovereignty of the states be respected in that manner.

Politically abortion seems to be an all or nothing issue. Which is sad considering the vast majority of Americans are neither abortion on demand adherents nor of the Akin(and yes Ryan) viewpoint of a Chilean style total ban on the practice.

Given the choice we'd probably find most states ranging from Abortions up to 20ish weeks down to bans but exemptions for rape/life of the mother

Good analysis. But if you even begin to argue Roe v Wade was wrongly decided ("emanations from the penumbra"), you're a candidate for being smeared as an extremist. Personally, I can't tell you how tired I am of this whole matter. And the extremism, particularly on the pro-life side. Randall Terry (to name just one) is an annoying a*shole, IMO. How some other people arrive at the position that killing in the name of "life" is appropriate, is beyond my ability to understand. As bad as shootings and bombings in the name of "life" are, mealy mouthed, half a*sed criticism of those who engage in the violence is nearly as bad.

My old man was a doctor. And we had six or seven doctors living on our block. One of whom, the old man informed me when I was in college, performed abortions. These were disguised as "D & C's" or some other procedure. But in the days before the pill, fairly well off white women weren't interested in unwanted children as a general rule. And he provided a lucrative and needed service.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

To be just as cynical, much of the Republican criticism may also be motivated by real politik, rather than genuine outrage. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think either side was 100% altruistic in their motives here.

Absolutely. I'm reminded of the line in "Patton" where George C. Scott admits to Karl Maulden that he's a prima donna. But takes exception to the fact that Montgomery is too, but denies it. Politics is the issue here. And who is our next president. And which party will control the senate. And most of this hysterical rhetoric is decidedly "Montgomerian."

 

[mookie1995]

So now we have a form of rape that's consensual?

Sorry, not on this planet. As Obama said, rape is rape. There is no consent.

John silber (D) once opined a woman should enjoy the ride while it happens

 

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Akin: 100% opposed to all abortions, because any rape victim who gets pregnant must not really have been raped. Herp, derp. Period.

+

Ryan: As far as we know, 100% opposed to all abortions because of his religious, firm social conservative views. Doesn't jive with a majority of Americans, since many moderate religious folk who are opposed to abortion undoubtedly would agree with a rape/incest clause, and some of them would also add a "mother endangerment" clause (no, I don't have a source for that, just my gut feeling having grown up Catholic and experienced the full range of "Cafeteria Catholics").

=

Both are 100% opposed to all abortions, regardless of circumstances.

That is where Akin and Ryan differ - was it really so hard to break this down? However, I realize that loudly arguing semantics from an extreme position is often the entire point of these boards, so who am I to try and inject reason here?

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I would not call Akin's statement a "gaffe." It is something he believes. The effective result of the policy is what has caused the furor. It's not "smearing" to talk about the objective legal consequences of political positions.

Whether "the media" spends more time on conservative than liberal sins is in the eye of the beholder. If it really irks you then find a media outlet that you are more comfortable with. I can't even find one for US news anymore -- I watch the BBC and Al Jazeera and France24 and DW when I want news about particular places in the world; there is no news source remaining in the states that I find of value for anything but entertainment. It sounds like every time you turn on NPR it tweaks you the way FNC tweaks me. We each have a solution for that...

I actually like NPR except when they get into the political commentary side of things, which happens a lot more during election season. But, I like a lot of their other stuff. So, I've just learned to flip the channel for five minutes when they go off on one of their political pieces and then come back later. For drive time, I have yet to find another station that's very listenable other than music stations. I don't have a go to news outlet. I'd say I go to a variety of sources and check out different articles, moving on quickly if I start reading one that has a lot of partisanship or simply lacks substance.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

I actually like NPR except when they get into the political commentary side of things, which happens a lot more during election season. But, I like a lot of their other stuff. So, I've just learned to flip the channel for five minutes when they go off on one of their political pieces and then come back later. For drive time, I have yet to find another station that's very listenable other than music stations. I don't have a go to news outlet. I'd say I go to a variety of sources and check out different articles, moving on quickly if I start reading one that has a lot of partisanship or simply lacks substance.

Around here, there are actually two right-wing talk radio stations. One has your big guns (Rush, Hannity, Savage), while the other has some other pundits (Ingraham, Dennis Miller, Jason Lewis) and is a bit more tolerable. However, if the trip is somewhat long, I'd rather pop in a Eurobeat CD.

 

[bronconick]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Akin: 100% opposed to all abortions, because any rape victim who gets pregnant must not really have been raped. Herp, derp. Period.

+

Ryan: As far as we know, 100% opposed to all abortions because of his religious, firm social conservative views. Doesn't jive with a majority of Americans, since many moderate religious folk who are opposed to abortion undoubtedly would agree with a rape/incest clause, and some of them would also add a "mother endangerment" clause (no, I don't have a source for that, just my gut feeling having grown up Catholic and experienced the full range of "Cafeteria Catholics").

=

Both are 100% opposed to all abortions, regardless of circumstances.

That is where Akin and Ryan differ - was it really so hard to break this down? However, I realize that loudly arguing semantics from an extreme position is often the entire point of these boards, so who am I to try and inject reason here?

Okay, smart guy. This winter you can break down the UND-Minnesota threads too.

 

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Okay, smart guy. This winter you can break down the UND-Minnesota threads too.

Hell, we can do it right now:

UND Fan: You suck.
Minn Fan: No, you suck.
*Frazee lets in a 185-foot goal*
UND Fan: See, you suck.
Minn Fan: No, you suck.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Around here, there are actually two right-wing talk radio stations. One has your big guns (Rush, Hannity, Savage), while the other has some other pundits (Ingraham, Dennis Miller, Jason Lewis) and is a bit more tolerable. However, if the trip is somewhat long, I'd rather pop in a Eurobeat CD.

Can't stand right wing talk radio. Never have listened except for a few unfortunate moments when I was catching a ride with someone else and they had it on. I'd rather listen to the Barry Manilow station.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Akin: 100% opposed to all abortions, because any rape victim who gets pregnant must not really have been raped. Herp, derp. Period.

+

Ryan: As far as we know, 100% opposed to all abortions because of his religious, firm social conservative views. Doesn't jive with a majority of Americans, since many moderate religious folk who are opposed to abortion undoubtedly would agree with a rape/incest clause, and some of them would also add a "mother endangerment" clause (no, I don't have a source for that, just my gut feeling having grown up Catholic and experienced the full range of "Cafeteria Catholics").

=

Both are 100% opposed to all abortions, regardless of circumstances.

That is where Akin and Ryan differ - was it really so hard to break this down? However, I realize that loudly arguing semantics from an extreme position is often the entire point of these boards, so who am I to try and inject reason here?

On this and many other contempoary issues, most of us are somewhere in the middle, but it's the extreme points of view that get the coverage. The recent chicken sandwich flap surely proves the point.

The Republican party is pro-life in its position, although many people who don't share that point of view vote Republican. Similarly, the Democrat party is the pro choice party. Let's see if I can accurately summarize the party's position: Any female, of any age, at any time during her pregnancy (including the moments before birth) can have an abortion for any reason or no reason. And any men in her life, father, husband or boy friend have no right to even know, let alone express an opinion. This holds for minor females as well, with "the government" prepared to provide for a medical procedure without parental notification, let alone consent (unlike any other medical procedure). And if she can't pay for it, taxpayers, including those who object on religous grounds must pay for it. While many, maybe even most, Democrats are pro-choice, is it reasonable to assume they all agree with every jot and tittle of the pro-choice argument? Not to me.

Here are the Gallup polling data on the question. Please note, the percentage calling for abortion to be legal in all circumstances and the percentage calling for it to be illegal under all circumstances track remarkably. Consistently, somewhere between 20 and 25% of us agree with either proposition. While equally consistently, more than half think abortion should be legal in SOME circumstances, thus illegal in SOME circumstances.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1576/Abortion.aspx

 

[manurespreader]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Good analysis. But if you even begin to argue Roe v Wade was wrongly decided ("emanations from the penumbra"), you're a candidate for being smeared as an extremist. Personally, I can't tell you how tired I am of this whole matter. And the extremism, particularly on the pro-life side. Randall Terry (to name just one) is an annoying a*shole, IMO. How some other people arrive at the position that killing in the name of "life" is appropriate, is beyond my ability to understand. As bad as shootings and bombings in the name of "life" are, mealy mouthed, half a*sed criticism of those who engage in the violence is nearly as bad.

My old man was a doctor. And we had six or seven doctors living on our block. One of whom, the old man informed me when I was in college, performed abortions. These were disguised as "D & C's" or some other procedure. But in the days before the pill, fairly well off white women weren't interested in unwanted children as a general rule. And he provided a lucrative and needed service.

my ex wife had three D and C's. these were always due to the death, for whatever reason, of the fetus very early in the pregnancy. It was NEVER just an abortion. Just FYI.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

John silber (D) once opined a woman should enjoy the ride while it happens

Three things a young Catholic girl in the 50's had to take on a date:
A newspaper -- just in case she had to sit on a boy's lap
A diaper pin -- just in case she had to defend herself from the boy's unwanted advances
A rosary -- just in case #2 failed and she could pray while.....

A never, ever, ever should she wear black patent leather shoes.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

my ex wife had three D and C's. these were always due to the death, for whatever reason, of the fetus very early in the pregnancy. It was NEVER just an abortion. Just FYI.

I guess I'm missing your point here. The annecdote I provided had to do with a guy who performed abortions and called them D&C's. It had nothing to do with the spontaneoous death of fetuses nor any criticism of any woman involved.

 

[Foxton]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Three things a young Catholic girl in the 50's had to take on a date:
A newspaper -- just in case she had to sit on a boy's lap
A diaper pin -- just in case she had to defend herself from the boy's unwanted advances
A rosary -- just in case #2 failed and she could pray while.....

A never, ever, ever should she wear black patent leather shoes.

These young catholic girls are over prepared, all they need is an aspirin to put between their knees.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

These young catholic girls are over prepared, all they need is an aspirin to put between their knees.

I once had a date (she may have been Jewish) who resisted my amorous advances with a "knee job."

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

So now we have a form of rape that's consensual?

Statutory?

 

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Statutory?

There's still no consent. The minor can't legally consent to anything.

Akin = Ryan

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

There's still no consent. The minor can't legally consent to anything.

Akin = Ryan

You went from having a good point to complete and utter derp in two seconds flat. Incredible.

 

[joecct]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

There's still no consent. The minor can't legally consent to anything.

Akin = Ryan

Except an abortion, birth control in schools (some as low as 12 yrs old), and what not. The law is getting contradictory. I mean if you're going to say it's statutory rape, why are you passing out birth control to minors? Does that mean the state condones sex with minors or what?

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial

Well, we agree on something. All of the weeping and wailing about abortion and Ryan is just part of the effort to get Jo Jo the Elephant Boy re-elected. As I've said repeatedly, all of this stuff may work.

You have my deepest sympathies, but that road travels both ways and your faux umbrage means nada. I can't believe the Pavlovian "where?" you've reduced yourself to anytime thy name Mitt is disparaged.

I once had a date (she may have been Jewish) who resisted my amorous advances with a "knee job."

"No means yes" is not an "amorous advance" outside of frat row.