Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
Nonsense. And down to your usual standards.
Nonsense. And down to your usual standards.
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Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
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Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
That's probably not a good thing for a national party to do with an issue where people are highly motivated on the issue at each point on the spectrum, though. The "Personhood" language leaves no doubt that the aim is full-on criminalization of abortion (how could it be otherwise, if it's a "person"?). That should scare the hell out of every woman (or parent of a woman) in the country who is not 100% against all abortion. It's also an INCREDIBLY radical intrusion of government against privacy, so every libertarian should also be scared of it.
This is a strange sentence, but Pio could actually be right. If the radicals care a million times more about this issue than the moderates, the party might give the radicals the plank language to appease them. I'll bet that tends to happen frequently with special interest giveaways (e.g., ethanol subsidies).
That's probably not a good thing for a national party to do with an issue where people are highly motivated on the issue at each point on the spectrum, though. The "Personhood" language leaves no doubt that the aim is full-on criminalization of abortion (how could it be otherwise, if it's a "person"?). That should scare the hell out of every woman (or parent of a woman) in the country who is not 100% against all abortion. It's also an INCREDIBLY radical intrusion of government against privacy, so every libertarian should also be scared of it.
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
Overturn Roe and then return the decision to the states. That's the best I can hope for. Sure, I'd like a 100% ban on abortion as I think it's immoral, but I'd also like Clarkson to win an NCAA championship. Some things are not meant to happen.
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Gurtholfin
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Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
Pio's opinion is that only 20% believe that there should be no exceptions.
I was just wondering if he has anything to back up that opinion. I haven't seen very many of the party's elected officials saying that they favor outlawing abortions while leaving exceptions, so I'm not sure where he's getting his 20% from.
If 80% favor exceptions, I was giving the helpful advice that maybe they should let it be known. Might help their cause.
Pio's opinion is that only 20% believe that there should be no exceptions.
I was just wondering if he has anything to back up that opinion. I haven't seen very many of the party's elected officials saying that they favor outlawing abortions while leaving exceptions, so I'm not sure where he's getting his 20% from.
If 80% favor exceptions, I was giving the helpful advice that maybe they should let it be known. Might help their cause.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
This is not about federalism, it's about theology.
If it reverts to the states we have basically given up on the 14th Amendment and decided that different states can define fundamental rights the way they want. For example, Mississippi could criminalize Islam. Or Christianity.
Be careful what you wish for.
That's the one thing that can't happen, logically. If it's a person it has the right to life -- a state cannot legalize murder. If it's not a person then the woman has the right to medical decisions over her body -- a state cannot commandeer a woman's body.
This is not about federalism, it's about theology.
If it reverts to the states we have basically given up on the 14th Amendment and decided that different states can define fundamental rights the way they want. For example, Mississippi could criminalize Islam. Or Christianity.
Be careful what you wish for.
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
That first sentence is rich coming from you - the person most likely on this board to lump anyone and everyone who disagrees with you on anything into one group.
It is your party. Be proud.
That first sentence is rich coming from you - the person most likely on this board to lump anyone and everyone who disagrees with you on anything into one group.
It is your party. Be proud.
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
Bob speaks for himself. As do I. After two days of this posturing and smearing, anyone who truly can't distinguish between Ryan and Akin on abortion is beyond our help. The question is passive/aggressive bull sh*t. Honorable people can and do disagree on this issue. But to suggest that people who agree on this issue must do so for the identical reasons. And that since Rayn and Akin agree on "no exceptions," and since Akin is, obviously an "extremist," that means Ryan must be too. That's a smear.
People can get to the same position by taking different routes.
Bob speaks for himself. As do I. After two days of this posturing and smearing, anyone who truly can't distinguish between Ryan and Akin on abortion is beyond our help. The question is passive/aggressive bull sh*t. Honorable people can and do disagree on this issue. But to suggest that people who agree on this issue must do so for the identical reasons. And that since Rayn and Akin agree on "no exceptions," and since Akin is, obviously an "extremist," that means Ryan must be too. That's a smear.
People can get to the same position by taking different routes.
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
So I'm wrong to do it, but not you?
So I'm wrong to do it, but not you?
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
But is abortion a "fundamental right" akin to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (and the newly discovered right of marriage)? 40 years since Roe may have ingrained it into the culture, but it does not make it right.
would not the First Amendment trump your argument? If you cannot be "for" a religion, you cannot be "against" one either, can you?
But is abortion a "fundamental right" akin to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (and the newly discovered right of marriage)? 40 years since Roe may have ingrained it into the culture, but it does not make it right.
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
The "route" makes no difference whatsoever. It's the end result that will be formed into policy.
Do you really not get that?
That's what has many (certainly not all) riled up, not the ignorant statements.
You're so quick to anger when someone paints conservative thinking with broad strokes, yet here you are doing the same. Assuming that everyone who is concerned about this is only concerned because of the statements.
There are ignorant people on both sides. That's incidental. Makes for a good story.
It's the policy enacted in the end that matters. On that, Ryan and Akin are twins.
The "route" makes no difference whatsoever. It's the end result that will be formed into policy.
Do you really not get that?
That's what has many (certainly not all) riled up, not the ignorant statements.
You're so quick to anger when someone paints conservative thinking with broad strokes, yet here you are doing the same. Assuming that everyone who is concerned about this is only concerned because of the statements.
There are ignorant people on both sides. That's incidental. Makes for a good story.
It's the policy enacted in the end that matters. On that, Ryan and Akin are twins.
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
It's my understanding that the 20% figure is accurate and derived the same way we derive these figures--polling. Just as polling has shown that by a narrow margin, the country is more pro-life than pro-choice. But smear away.
It's my understanding that the 20% figure is accurate and derived the same way we derive these figures--polling. Just as polling has shown that by a narrow margin, the country is more pro-life than pro-choice. But smear away.
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
You're wrong to call me out for it while doing it yourself.
You're wrong to call me out for it while doing it yourself.
Kepler
Si certus es dubita
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
I would argue that privacy rights precede and underpin all other human rights. If we do not have control over our bodies, we do not have any freedom at all. If you want it explicitly spelled out I guess that's the 4th Amendment (which also doesn't control the states if the 14th Amendment doesn't hold).
As for the "right to marriage," that's the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment itself. It's not newly discovered, it's merely extended by the evolving consciousness that GLBT people should have rights, too (in the same way that the EPC was not originally interpreted to extend to women, but has been so applied over time).
If the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the states, the 1st Amendment doesn't matter.
I would argue that privacy rights precede and underpin all other human rights. If we do not have control over our bodies, we do not have any freedom at all. If you want it explicitly spelled out I guess that's the 4th Amendment (which also doesn't control the states if the 14th Amendment doesn't hold).
As for the "right to marriage," that's the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment itself. It's not newly discovered, it's merely extended by the evolving consciousness that GLBT people should have rights, too (in the same way that the EPC was not originally interpreted to extend to women, but has been so applied over time).
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Gurtholfin
Guest
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
Bigger picture than that...
What's at stake in this general election is what people are pointing out and Ryan has a significant amount of support (in congress and the senate) for his ideas and Romney has shown no sack whatsoever in anything, so who's really going to be forming the policy of this administration?
I would have been in the camp of "They wouldn't do all that, it's too radical." camp of observers 10 years ago, but I've seen the crap the Republican state governments have pulled in the past two years and I don't believe anyone who tells me that it couldn't happen on the federal level.
Ryan and his brand of conservatism needs to be exposed so people can make a decision on what direction they want this country to go in.
I for one wouldn't want him to be making the rules with a congress and senate (and supreme court if Romney can appoint) in just as radical of hands.
Bigger picture than that...
What's at stake in this general election is what people are pointing out and Ryan has a significant amount of support (in congress and the senate) for his ideas and Romney has shown no sack whatsoever in anything, so who's really going to be forming the policy of this administration?
I would have been in the camp of "They wouldn't do all that, it's too radical." camp of observers 10 years ago, but I've seen the crap the Republican state governments have pulled in the past two years and I don't believe anyone who tells me that it couldn't happen on the federal level.
Ryan and his brand of conservatism needs to be exposed so people can make a decision on what direction they want this country to go in.
I for one wouldn't want him to be making the rules with a congress and senate (and supreme court if Romney can appoint) in just as radical of hands.
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BoomGoestheDynamite
Registered User
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
Ryan, true to his nature, does seem to be taking the most logically consistent position here: If one believes a fetus deserves full protection under the law from the point of conception and should not pay the price for the sin of its conception. Unfortunately that logical consistency can lead to some very ugly practical results.
The problem with that sentiment is nobody really gives a **** about Federalism as a principal. The moment Roe were to go down (and its legal reasoning always struck me as a problematic), Republicans would face strong pressure to create a national ban, especially if they controlled Congress. Democrats would meanwhile switch to demanding the sovereignty of the states be respected in that manner.
Politically abortion seems to be an all or nothing issue. Which is sad considering the vast majority of Americans are neither abortion on demand adherents nor of the Akin(and yes Ryan) viewpoint of a Chilean style total ban on the practice.
Given the choice we'd probably find most states ranging from Abortions up to 20ish weeks down to bans but exemptions for rape/life of the mother
Ryan, true to his nature, does seem to be taking the most logically consistent position here: If one believes a fetus deserves full protection under the law from the point of conception and should not pay the price for the sin of its conception. Unfortunately that logical consistency can lead to some very ugly practical results.
The problem with that sentiment is nobody really gives a **** about Federalism as a principal. The moment Roe were to go down (and its legal reasoning always struck me as a problematic), Republicans would face strong pressure to create a national ban, especially if they controlled Congress. Democrats would meanwhile switch to demanding the sovereignty of the states be respected in that manner.
Politically abortion seems to be an all or nothing issue. Which is sad considering the vast majority of Americans are neither abortion on demand adherents nor of the Akin(and yes Ryan) viewpoint of a Chilean style total ban on the practice.
Given the choice we'd probably find most states ranging from Abortions up to 20ish weeks down to bans but exemptions for rape/life of the mother
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Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
Well, we agree on something. All of the weeping and wailing about abortion and Ryan is just part of the effort to get Jo Jo the Elephant Boy re-elected. As I've said repeatedly, all of this stuff may work.
Well, we agree on something. All of the weeping and wailing about abortion and Ryan is just part of the effort to get Jo Jo the Elephant Boy re-elected. As I've said repeatedly, all of this stuff may work.
BoomGoestheDynamite
Registered User
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
To be just as cynical, much of the Republican criticism may also be motivated by real politik, rather than genuine outrage. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think either side was 100% altruistic in their motives here.
To be just as cynical, much of the Republican criticism may also be motivated by real politik, rather than genuine outrage. You'd have to be incredibly naive to think either side was 100% altruistic in their motives here.
Re: Elections 2012: Congressional and Gubernatorial
I for one am glad that Akin is staying in the race. Lets hope he's true to his word and stays until the end. Even if he wins election. Its about time the GOP elects people not afraid to say how they really feel on these issues. Akin will at the very least be transparent while advocating the very policies that his party has repeatedly voted to enact.
I for one am glad that Akin is staying in the race. Lets hope he's true to his word and stays until the end. Even if he wins election. Its about time the GOP elects people not afraid to say how they really feel on these issues. Akin will at the very least be transparent while advocating the very policies that his party has repeatedly voted to enact.
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