gojackets
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
A "Strong" conference from top to bottom...or a big pile of mediocrity?
A "Strong" conference from top to bottom...or a big pile of mediocrity?
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D3 Hockey is back!
- Thread starter gojackets
- Start date
gojackets
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
Its a panel of coaches and I believe the USCHO D3 writer.
They also adjust their rankings off of last weeks rankings. Adrian was #2 on last weeks poll. They lost a game and dropped a few spots. Perfectly logical. Lake Forest was 9th and they moved up a few spots. Makes sense.
Just because a team beats another team doesn't mean they should automatically jump them in the polls, but teams will move up and down accordingly. It's also all about what have you done lately. Adrian beat Elmira in the first game of the season, Elmira has done well since then, so they move back up because Adrian loses.
I agree with Norwich, they shouldn't be ranked. But really, who else are you going to put in the top 10 at this point? Apparently according to crosscheck, the NESCAC teams should be 1-9 and then everyone else. Castleton's undefeated....as is Buffalo State (hey they're tied for first in the ECAC-W with Plattsburgh...)
Its a panel of coaches and I believe the USCHO D3 writer.
They also adjust their rankings off of last weeks rankings. Adrian was #2 on last weeks poll. They lost a game and dropped a few spots. Perfectly logical. Lake Forest was 9th and they moved up a few spots. Makes sense.
Just because a team beats another team doesn't mean they should automatically jump them in the polls, but teams will move up and down accordingly. It's also all about what have you done lately. Adrian beat Elmira in the first game of the season, Elmira has done well since then, so they move back up because Adrian loses.
I agree with Norwich, they shouldn't be ranked. But really, who else are you going to put in the top 10 at this point? Apparently according to crosscheck, the NESCAC teams should be 1-9 and then everyone else. Castleton's undefeated....as is Buffalo State (hey they're tied for first in the ECAC-W with Plattsburgh...)
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HockeyEast33
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
Regardless of whether there is parity (or if you prefer, mediocrity) in the NESCAC, the weaker teams in the NESCAC are definitely better than the weaker teams in any other conference in the country. As an example, the last 3 years the last place team in the NESCAC has been over .500 in out of conference games. I HATE to agree with CrossCheck (see the post history), but I totally agree with him that the NESCAC conference is stronger through the ranks than the other conferences. The top teams may not always be national championship contenders (although usually Middlebury and one other random team are competitive in the NCAA tourney every year) but the conference is a lot deeper than the others. Even Wesleyan, which can't seem to keep any sort of positive momentum and is the near perennial last place finisher, still manages to often produce winning non-conference records..... Any AD that is scheduling games for guaranteed wins would be making a mistake picking a NESCAC team for that role.
Regardless of whether there is parity (or if you prefer, mediocrity) in the NESCAC, the weaker teams in the NESCAC are definitely better than the weaker teams in any other conference in the country. As an example, the last 3 years the last place team in the NESCAC has been over .500 in out of conference games. I HATE to agree with CrossCheck (see the post history), but I totally agree with him that the NESCAC conference is stronger through the ranks than the other conferences. The top teams may not always be national championship contenders (although usually Middlebury and one other random team are competitive in the NCAA tourney every year) but the conference is a lot deeper than the others. Even Wesleyan, which can't seem to keep any sort of positive momentum and is the near perennial last place finisher, still manages to often produce winning non-conference records..... Any AD that is scheduling games for guaranteed wins would be making a mistake picking a NESCAC team for that role.
I will agree the NESCAC is a more balanced conference from top to bottom, so I'll adjust my list and remove Colby and sometimes Hamilton from the fluff pile but not Wesleyan.
Castleton's first 6 games were against:
Cortland
Oswego
Southern Maine
UNE
Franklin Pierce
Nichols
- Oswego and Franklin Pierce are pretty good teams but the others are fluff. They've also got games scheduled against Plattsburgh, Williams, Middlebury, Connecticut College, and Colby. They also have 2 games in their conference against Norwich.
Buffalo's first 6 games were against:
Nichols
Plymouth State
Potsdam (2 games)
Neumann (2)
- all are fluff teams and their next opponent is Chatham for 2 games. Wow! This could be the softest opening schedule ever. They don't play a quality opponent until they go to Williams on November 28th. They've also got 2 games each with Canton, Salem State, William Smith, and Cortland. Wow again! I'm going to bet they have the softest schedule in D3 women's hockey. Maybe they'll add Finlandia to their schedule next year. Lol.
Plattsburgh's first 6 games were against:
Norwich
Adrian
Neumann (2 games)
Chatham (2)
So only Norwich and Adrian are of any quality while the other 2 are fluff teams, but they've also got Stevens Point, Gustavus, Middlebury, and Norwich again.
Interesting to take a closer look like that. Castleton's approach seems to be to create a more difficult schedule to test themselves and see where they stack up against high end teams. Buffalo's approach seems to be the reverse of that. If I'm a player looking at college options I'd much rather play for a team like Castleton.
Castleton's first 6 games were against:
Cortland
Oswego
Southern Maine
UNE
Franklin Pierce
Nichols
- Oswego and Franklin Pierce are pretty good teams but the others are fluff. They've also got games scheduled against Plattsburgh, Williams, Middlebury, Connecticut College, and Colby. They also have 2 games in their conference against Norwich.
Buffalo's first 6 games were against:
Nichols
Plymouth State
Potsdam (2 games)
Neumann (2)
- all are fluff teams and their next opponent is Chatham for 2 games. Wow! This could be the softest opening schedule ever. They don't play a quality opponent until they go to Williams on November 28th. They've also got 2 games each with Canton, Salem State, William Smith, and Cortland. Wow again! I'm going to bet they have the softest schedule in D3 women's hockey. Maybe they'll add Finlandia to their schedule next year. Lol.
Plattsburgh's first 6 games were against:
Norwich
Adrian
Neumann (2 games)
Chatham (2)
So only Norwich and Adrian are of any quality while the other 2 are fluff teams, but they've also got Stevens Point, Gustavus, Middlebury, and Norwich again.
Interesting to take a closer look like that. Castleton's approach seems to be to create a more difficult schedule to test themselves and see where they stack up against high end teams. Buffalo's approach seems to be the reverse of that. If I'm a player looking at college options I'd much rather play for a team like Castleton.
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PrezdeJohnson09
Proud supporter of Osmirwich hockey
While 5th might be a little high, the notion that Norwich shouldn't be ranked is appalling. Certainly the Elmira game was forgettable but don't forget NU played Plattsburgh to a 1-1 game the night before and then lost with 17 seconds left to the unquestioned #1 team in the country the last 3 years.
Let's see how they do vs. Bowdoin/Amherst in December before writing them off as not being ranked.
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
My issue is you're judging teams' schedules by their conference opponents who they are required to play. And yes it's fair to judge a team's strength of schedule if they're in a weak conference, but it's unfair to claim programs are actively trying to take the path of least resistance if most of their weak opponents are in-conference. The only fair measure of that is judging which teams a program schedules for out of conference play, and there's a caveat in that because the good programs will try to play each other to keep their strength of schedule up which leaves middle of the pack programs stuck with games against each other and the bottom feeders.
My issue is you're judging teams' schedules by their conference opponents who they are required to play. And yes it's fair to judge a team's strength of schedule if they're in a weak conference, but it's unfair to claim programs are actively trying to take the path of least resistance if most of their weak opponents are in-conference. The only fair measure of that is judging which teams a program schedules for out of conference play, and there's a caveat in that because the good programs will try to play each other to keep their strength of schedule up which leaves middle of the pack programs stuck with games against each other and the bottom feeders.
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CrossCheck
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
I agree with Norwich, they shouldn't be ranked. But really, who else are you going to put in the top 10 at this point? Apparently according to crosscheck, the NESCAC teams should be 1-9 and then everyone else. Castleton's undefeated....as is Buffalo State (hey they're tied for first in the ECAC-W with Plattsburgh...)[/QUOTE]
Are you really as big of an idiot as you sound? I never once said anything about nescac teams being ranked [though by season's end 2-3 will no doubt be in the top 10 as always]...The issue was your dopey comment that some of the lesser nescac teams belonged in the same category with the Salem State's and Daniel Webster's of the hockey world... which just shows your ignorance [and no doubt your educational inferiority complex]. LOOOL's
I agree with Norwich, they shouldn't be ranked. But really, who else are you going to put in the top 10 at this point? Apparently according to crosscheck, the NESCAC teams should be 1-9 and then everyone else. Castleton's undefeated....as is Buffalo State (hey they're tied for first in the ECAC-W with Plattsburgh...)[/QUOTE]
Are you really as big of an idiot as you sound? I never once said anything about nescac teams being ranked [though by season's end 2-3 will no doubt be in the top 10 as always]...The issue was your dopey comment that some of the lesser nescac teams belonged in the same category with the Salem State's and Daniel Webster's of the hockey world... which just shows your ignorance [and no doubt your educational inferiority complex]. LOOOL's
I was actually looking at the entire schedules of those teams, but let's look at the out of conference games only:
Castleton has:
Cortland
Oswego
Plattsburgh
Williams
Middlebury
Connecticut College
Colby
Holy Cross / Manhattanville
Plattsburgh has:
Norwich
Adrian
Castleton
Stevens Point
Gustavus
Middlebury
Norwich
Buffalo has:
Nichols
Plymouth State
Williams (their only out of conference quality opponent)
Canton for 2 games
Salem State for 2 games
I think that says more than enough about this discussion point.
CrossCheck
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
another clueless wonder... Hands down it's the Best Conf. in the nation, year in and year out...Multiple Natty champs over the years and every year at least one nescac team is in the hunt for another title...and yet on any given weekend any team can be beat. It's a great Conf.
another clueless wonder... Hands down it's the Best Conf. in the nation, year in and year out...Multiple Natty champs over the years and every year at least one nescac team is in the hunt for another title...and yet on any given weekend any team can be beat. It's a great Conf.
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
The ECAC West programs have 8 national titles to the NESCAC's 5, with only two different programs (Middlebury and Amherst) having won them for the NESCAC and three having won for the ECAC West (Platty, Elmira and RIT). The NESCAC has made the championship game 9 times while ECAC West teams have made 13 appearances in the national title game.
The NESCAC is a very competitive conference, but you cannot rely on the National Championship history to back that up.
The ECAC West programs have 8 national titles to the NESCAC's 5, with only two different programs (Middlebury and Amherst) having won them for the NESCAC and three having won for the ECAC West (Platty, Elmira and RIT). The NESCAC has made the championship game 9 times while ECAC West teams have made 13 appearances in the national title game.
The NESCAC is a very competitive conference, but you cannot rely on the National Championship history to back that up.
CrossCheck
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
Sure I can...because the proof is in the puddin....Year in and year out nescac teams are in the hunt for a national title...yet the 'weak sisters' can still hang with these top teams...they may not win, but the games are nearly always close...That is certainly not the case in the ECAC ...where you have a few very, very good teams at the top and then a lot of absolute SLOP.
Sure I can...because the proof is in the puddin....Year in and year out nescac teams are in the hunt for a national title...yet the 'weak sisters' can still hang with these top teams...they may not win, but the games are nearly always close...That is certainly not the case in the ECAC ...where you have a few very, very good teams at the top and then a lot of absolute SLOP.
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
NESCAC play begins tonight. Any of you want to take a shot at predicting the results of the action this weekend?
Amherst at Conn College for 2
Hamilton at Williams for 2
Trinity at Middlebury for 2
Bowdoin and Colby play home and home
Wesleyan at Johnson & Wales Saturday
I will confidently predict a Wesleyan win, but beyond that it is just guess work!
NESCAC play begins tonight. Any of you want to take a shot at predicting the results of the action this weekend?
Amherst at Conn College for 2
Hamilton at Williams for 2
Trinity at Middlebury for 2
Bowdoin and Colby play home and home
Wesleyan at Johnson & Wales Saturday
I will confidently predict a Wesleyan win, but beyond that it is just guess work!
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
Predict J & W to trounce W in the shot-blocking category
and to win in the face-off category, otherwise they lose on the score board. The other games all end in ties, across the board, all weekend...prediction.
Predict J & W to trounce W in the shot-blocking category
and to win in the face-off category, otherwise they lose on the score board. The other games all end in ties, across the board, all weekend...prediction.HockeyEast33
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
So, this is a case where a weak NESCAC school scheduled an even weaker new program for a shot at a win.....hey, everyone does it. I'd do the NESCAC predictions on the NESCAC thread...you'll get more takers.
Predict J & W to trounce W in the shot-blocking category
So, this is a case where a weak NESCAC school scheduled an even weaker new program for a shot at a win.....hey, everyone does it. I'd do the NESCAC predictions on the NESCAC thread...you'll get more takers.
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
I was attempting to engage "the westerners" with an eye to demonstrating how competitive NESCAC play is every time you take the ice.
I was attempting to engage "the westerners" with an eye to demonstrating how competitive NESCAC play is every time you take the ice.
HockeyEast33
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
Oh, in that case:
Amherst at Conn College - Split (Amherst drops off some, CC still capable of big wins but continues to be inconsistent (goalie loss significant))
Hamilton at Williams - Split (think Hamilton is improved this year, Williams has lots of freshmen that will have to figure it out and their returners are average (lost one of their better defenseman to career ending injuries))
Trinity at Middlebury - Midd sweep but two close games, don't think Trinity will be as strong without Potter coaching (hate to say that!)
Bowdoin and Colby - Split (Colby getting better, Bowdoin treading water)
Wesleyan at Johnson & Wales - Wesleyan - probably by a relatively heavy margin
Oh, in that case:
Amherst at Conn College - Split (Amherst drops off some, CC still capable of big wins but continues to be inconsistent (goalie loss significant))
Hamilton at Williams - Split (think Hamilton is improved this year, Williams has lots of freshmen that will have to figure it out and their returners are average (lost one of their better defenseman to career ending injuries))
Trinity at Middlebury - Midd sweep but two close games, don't think Trinity will be as strong without Potter coaching (hate to say that!)
Bowdoin and Colby - Split (Colby getting better, Bowdoin treading water)
Wesleyan at Johnson & Wales - Wesleyan - probably by a relatively heavy margin
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
The ECAC West has always been a very top heavy and imbalanced league with Plattsburgh and Elmira as the top 2 and then dropping off quickly with the rest of the teams being also-rans with no chance at all of getting 1st or 2nd place. When RIT was in the league it was worse for those teams because the top 3 teams were Plattsburgh, Elmira, and RIT each year. It was only a matter of which order those top 3 would end up. It also made it a 3 team race to get to the NCAA tournament and only 2 of those teams would get to advance (one AQ and one at-large) so that was tougher on all 3 of them which was a good thing. That raises the point that the ECAC West was at its strongest and deepest when RIT was also in the league and is much weaker now without them and with the addition of William Smith. That's an incredible tradeoff in quality of teams. I'd much rather face William Smith twice a year than RIT because you have a very good chance of 2 wins against them instead of 2 losses against RIT. That makes a really big difference in a team's record and in the standings but it has also diluted the league at the same time. Plattsburgh and Elmira would have much more consistently challenging opponents during the season if they were in the NESCAC but obviously that's impossible so they are forced to breeze through the watered down ECAC West on their way to the NCAA tournament every year.
The ECAC West has always been a very top heavy and imbalanced league with Plattsburgh and Elmira as the top 2 and then dropping off quickly with the rest of the teams being also-rans with no chance at all of getting 1st or 2nd place. When RIT was in the league it was worse for those teams because the top 3 teams were Plattsburgh, Elmira, and RIT each year. It was only a matter of which order those top 3 would end up. It also made it a 3 team race to get to the NCAA tournament and only 2 of those teams would get to advance (one AQ and one at-large) so that was tougher on all 3 of them which was a good thing. That raises the point that the ECAC West was at its strongest and deepest when RIT was also in the league and is much weaker now without them and with the addition of William Smith. That's an incredible tradeoff in quality of teams. I'd much rather face William Smith twice a year than RIT because you have a very good chance of 2 wins against them instead of 2 losses against RIT. That makes a really big difference in a team's record and in the standings but it has also diluted the league at the same time. Plattsburgh and Elmira would have much more consistently challenging opponents during the season if they were in the NESCAC but obviously that's impossible so they are forced to breeze through the watered down ECAC West on their way to the NCAA tournament every year.
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PSUChamps2001
Member of the REAL Zoo Crew
Plattsburgh is 10-0-1 vs the NESCAC in the last 11 games. Overall since their inception Plattsburgh is 50-15-6 versus NESCAC opponents, most of which were Top 3 NESCAC if not #1. Challenging maybe, but I'm not sure much would change other than the top NESCAC schools with a couple more loses in their standings.....
CrossCheck
New member
Re: D3 Hockey is back!
the discussion has been sidetracked...that was never the issue....Platty and Norwich are great teams...anyone with a pulse can attend, so getting hockey players passed Admissions Dept. isn't a problem....But back to the debate...the nescac is overall the best Conf. top to bottom...if you need any proof, take a look at the Wesly box score from yesterday...I rest my case [Selfit needs to get a grip and admit he was clueless lumping in Wesly with the ECAC or NEHC or whatever its now called..slop]
the discussion has been sidetracked...that was never the issue....Platty and Norwich are great teams...anyone with a pulse can attend, so getting hockey players passed Admissions Dept. isn't a problem....But back to the debate...the nescac is overall the best Conf. top to bottom...if you need any proof, take a look at the Wesly box score from yesterday...I rest my case [Selfit needs to get a grip and admit he was clueless lumping in Wesly with the ECAC or NEHC or whatever its now called..slop]