Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

[Rover]

I guess it's the same situation as Lance Armstrong then. The only evidence against him is a couple of people who testified as part of a deal.

In some ways yes, although one big, big difference is Clemens took it all the way to trail, while Armstrong backed off from going that far. I'm merely speculating here, but I've heard there were multiple people ready to blow the whistle on Lance, while Clemens' trail always came down to only one witness.

Moving on, IIRC steroids have been illegal in baseball since 1991. There wasn't a testing mechanism in place until much later, but aside from guys using in the 80's everybody else was breaking the rules after that point.

 

[FreshFish]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

The line of thinking is that the one thing he was really good at is the thing that is most inflated by PEDs so he really doesn't deserve credit for doing special things related to HRs because those numbers are inflated the most by PEDs...or so the line of reasoning goes.

Yes, thank you for the clarification. I was not trying to present what I personally believe but merely to discuss what I thought his status would be with Hall voters.

As far as hitting home runs, Sosa's run was mind-boggling: still the only player ever to have 3 seasons of 60+ homers (ironically, he never won the HR title in any of those years), I think over a five-year span he averaged 52 homers per year, and he also had plenty of RBIs and runs scored too in those years. Bonds might have been able to match that if he hadn't been walked so often (though I think that body armor he wore should have been outlawed or at least scaled back). Supposedly it was because of jealousy over the attention given to McGwire and Sosa that led Bonds to start juicing after what had already been a Hall-worthy career before that.

I haven't quite made up my mind on the whole PED thing. To say it wasn't against "the rules of the game at the time" is a bit specious, as some of them were against the law! (amphetamines in particular). Not sure why HGH should be banned; if I understand correctly it is not a performance "enhancer" it is "merely" a tool to aid recovery from injury, wear, and tear.

Even the term "steroids" is misleading....people take prescription steroid cream all the time for skin conditions (not quite sure if hydrocortisone is a steroid or not, I think you can get it over the counter even); it is only a subset of steroids that is problematic. and they are illegal because they endanger a person's long-term health.

I have mixed feelings about having drugs in general be illegal, as the only outcome of their illegality seems to be to make drug dealers rich, police and judges more susceptible to bribery, and quality for users to be more questionable and dangerous than otherwise. You could give safe heroin away for free and I still wouldn't want it; meanwhile, legal addictive drugs like nicotine see their use going down over time because people can get treatment and help in kicking their addiction. The heartless b^st^rd inside me says make all drugs legal and in a few months all users will either be dead or in rehab and we won't have a problem any more.

 

[mookie1995]

I continue not to understand this line of reasoning. Except for scoring goals Brett Hull wasn't much of a hockey player, but the HHoF voters didn't see that as much of an obstacle. Yes, McGwire wasn't great at much else besides hitting home runs (if you ignore the .394 career OBP), but he was one of the best of all time at doing the single best thing a position player can do to help his team win games. Why is that treated with derision, as if it's no better than being really good at executing the front end of a double steal or at fielding pickoff throws?

McGwire without steroids hit 50 hrs and batted .190 a year.

Ergo he is a slower Dave Kingman

 

[jmh]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

McGwire without steroids hit 50 hrs and batted .190 a year.

Ergo he is a slower Dave Kingman

Batting average is not important in evaluating how good an offensive player someone is. Do people really still not get that?

 

[mookie1995]

Batting average is not important in evaluating how good an offensive player someone is. Do people really still not get that?

Do you not get if he wasn't hitting a hr every time he swung he wouldn't have been pitched around so much?
Obp
1987- 370
1988- 352
1989- 339
1990- 370
1991- 330

Whoop-tee-doooo

 

[jmh]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Do you not get if he wasn't hitting a hr every time he swung he wouldn't have been pitched around so much?
Obp
1987- 370
1988- 352
1989- 339
1990- 370
1991- 330

Whoop-tee-doooo

In 1990 as a 26-year-old McGwire hit 39 homers and his OBP was .370. In 1975 as a 26-year-old Kingman hit 36 homers and his OBP was .284. If you'll forgive the pun, it's not even in the same ballpark. Drawing walks isn't just a matter of being pitched around, it's a skill. For example, Willie Randolph drew a ton of walks in his career, even though nobody was pitching around him because he wasn't a power threat and (at least in the early part of his career) was a dangerous baserunner.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

So .370 Obp is hof worthy ?

 

[jmh]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

So .370 Obp is hof worthy ?

If you hit 54 homers in your career like Willie Randolph, probably not. If you hit 54 homers in a single season three times, maybe. You have to look at the whole picture, not just try to boil it down to one number.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

If you hit 54 homers in your career like Willie Randolph, probably not. If you hit 54 homers in a single season three times, maybe. You have to look at the whole picture, not just try to boil it down to one number.

except now we can't even do that.... a whole generation of warped numbers to skew the pot.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Baseball writers, historically, have been overpaid latent heterosexuals, who have shown childish, vile indifference to the facts. Who have played personalities, to the detriment of the game and their reputations. I've mentioned my HOF reltnay about how they treated Santo. How 'bout the time Ted Williams lost the MVP by one point? Turns out one midwestern writer failed to name Williams on his ballot. If he'd been named the 9th "most valuable player" he would have won the award. Hard to imagine 8 or 9 guys "more valuable" than somebody who wins the Triple Crown. Candya*s writer didn't vote for Williams to punish him for treating writers like dogsh*t. Seems like they deserved it.

Also, not to put too fine a point on it: of course, the HOF can keep 4,000 hits out if it wants. But it can't do so forever and maintain any credibility, especially since every guy who has 3,000 hits is in and there's only been one other 4,000 hit guy so far (and unlikely to be any more). Getting 200 hits in a season is a remarkable achievement. In any given season, only a handful of players do it. To get to 4,000 hits, you have to do it 20 times! Pete Rose is many things, including degenerate gambler and liar. But he's no cheat. And any manager of any team anywhere, anytime would love to have him in the lineup.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

some of the boston writers had a hard on for teddy. he was before his time (jhm pin up! ). unlike kingman, teddy knew the value of a walk. writers would yell at him to swing at an outside pitch every once in a while and try to get a hit and drive in a run.

 

[Old Pio]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

some of the boston writers had a hard on for teddy. he was before his time (jhm pin up! ). unlike kingman, teddy knew the value of a walk. writers would yell at him to swing at an outside pitch every once in a while and try to get a hit and drive in a run.

Mentioning Kingman in the same sentence with Teddy Ballgame is like that old joke where the kid says "Between my father and me, we know everything there is to know." Asked a question, the kid paused and said : "That's one of the things the old man knows."

Williams hit over 500 homers and lost 5 seasons out of the heart of his career to fly combat missions in two wars! Doesn't take a genius to figure if he'd played those five seasons, he would have had a shot at 700 homers.

Decades ago SI had an article about Williams, which focused on his single minded drive to be "the best there ever was." After games at Fenway, Williams was in the habit of having the clubhouse guy throw him batting practice in an empty stadium, with the lights out. The only illumination coming from the lights in the stands. He would stand at the plate, yelling "I'm Teddy freaking Ballgame," Crack. "I'm the best freaking player in the world." Crack. Hitting screaming line drives into the darkened outfield.

When Lou Boudreau started having his Indians deploy in the "Williams shift," that hard nosed sone of a gun refused to swing late and bloop hits into left field (which he could have done all day long). He was, after all, "Teddy freaking Ballgame, the best freaking player in the world."

In '41, with only a double header left to play, Williams was hitting .39955, which would have been rounded up to .400. He had enough at bats and some urged him to sit out the last two games. He said if he did, he wouldn't deserve the .400. "The Splinter" went 6 for 8!

 

[jmh]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Mentioning Kingman in the same sentence with Teddy Ballgame...

Well, in fairness to mookie, he only mentioned them in the same sentence to describe a way that they were different.

 

[mookie1995]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

what does teddy have in common with rickey henderson and tim raines?

 

[pgb-ohio]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

I'm pretty this angle has no merit because turning in a blank ballot IS saying NO ONE on this ballot is worthy. I highly doubt that writing anything on a ballot that isn't one of the players on the ballot isn't allowed so writing "none" is pointless. This is just something you concocted to make you feel better.

There's nothing to feel better about; we're talking about voting rules here. Never said I was feeling bad for any particular candidate, and I'm not. Further, the angle you're taking issue with is a distant secondary concern. Heck, if it makes YOU feel better, I'll delete that line from my previous post.

People who turned in blanket ballots are prepared to defend that stand.

Well, maybe so. I still say there were innocent candidates caught in the cross-fire. Frankly I think you're giving the voters a little too much credit. But if a voter sincerely believes 100% of the candidates were unworthy, then sure, they should withhold all support.

 

[RaceBoarder]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

This will be interesting to see what direction this trend takes with next year's ballot... You have 3 "clean" guys who are clearly HoF members in Tom Glavine, Greg Maddux, and Frank Thomas... All 3 of which would have been "First Ballot" guys 5 or so years ago... Well, I guess Glavine and Maddux are, and I am openly biased towards Thomas, but still they all will be in... And none of those 3 have been within the 500 miles of a legit doping accusation...

 

[Jimjamesak]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

You gotta love baseball and its HOF. You can be a degenerate, a racist, a drunk, a cokehead even, but if you're a gambler or steroid user! Ah no you ain't getting in!

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

You gotta love baseball and its HOF. You can be a degenerate, a racist, a drunk, a cokehead even, but if you're a gambler or steroid user! Ah no you ain't getting in!

Two of those things affect the game. The rest of them don't. Get a clue.

 

[Shirtless Guy]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Two of those things affect the game. The rest of them don't. Get a clue.

how does gambling as a manager change the fact that Pete Rose has over 4000 hits as a player?

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

how does gambling as a manager change the fact that Pete Rose has over 4000 hits as a player?

I misspoke. I meant to say, two of those are related to on-field activities.