What's new
USCHO Fan Forum

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • The USCHO Fan Forum has migrated to a new plaform, xenForo. Most of the function of the forum should work in familiar ways. Please note that you can switch between light and dark modes by clicking on the gear icon in the upper right of the main menu bar. We are hoping that this new platform will prove to be faster and more reliable. Please feel free to explore its features.

Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Jackson dogged it whenever the game was on the line. The beauty of baseball is that all the game were scored, so you can look back at the records to see what actually happened and draw your own conclusions.

For example, it was widely reported Jackson threw out 5 runners during the series. Upon further review, that wasn't the case and he himself was the source of that info. Officially he threw out only one. Also, by the scoring an usual amount of triples were hit to LF by Cincy during the series, which was odd given Jackson's speed and defensive prowess. His hitting in the clutch I also believe was poor. None of this would be enough to hang him if taken in isolation, but coupled with him taking money and knowing the fix was in leaves him....GUILTY AS CHARGED!

Besides, Landis banned the team on the grounds that anybody who even knows a fix is taking place and doesn't report it is gone too. A tough but fair decision in the quest to clean up the game, lest baseball end up having the integrity of boxing matches in the public's eye.
Comiskey and others were never banned, though there's ample evidence he and others knew about it. Jackson approached Comiskey several times, including before the Series, thinking Comiskey would be the person he should warn, but Comiskey sat on the information. Jackson even asked to be benched for the Series, but Comiskey refused. If we applied the standard of who knew something might be going on, we'd have most of MLB banned now for knowing about steroids, etc. All the other conspirators admitted that Jackson was not in on any of the planning. The guy was guilty of being a naive illiterate country bumpkin.

Jackson fielded his 30 tries flawlessly and threw a player out at the plate. Would have been more throw-outs, but several of his throws were cut off by infielders in on the fix, wanting players to not be thrown out. He had the highest batting average, hit the only HR of the series, and set a Series record with 12 hits, and on and on. Allegations of him dogging it in the field are speculative at best.
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Comiskey and others were never banned, though there's ample evidence he and others knew about it. Jackson approached Comiskey several times, including before the Series, thinking Comiskey would be the person he should warn, but Comiskey sat on the information. Jackson even asked to be benched for the Series, but Comiskey refused. If we applied the standard of who knew something might be going on, we'd have most of MLB banned now for knowing about steroids, etc. All the other conspirators admitted that Jackson was not in on any of the planning. The guy was guilty of being a naive illiterate country bumpkin.

Jackson fielded his 30 tries flawlessly and threw a player out at the plate. Would have been more throw-outs, but several of his throws were cut off by infielders in on the fix, wanting players to not be thrown out. He had the highest batting average, hit the only HR of the series, and set a Series record with 12 hits, and on and on. Allegations of him dogging it in the field are speculative at best.

I'm thinking reviewing boxscores from nearly a century ago is useless in determining whether or not Jackson was in on it. We're not like Studds Terkel, circling "suspicious" plays on our scorecards. We weren't there. No films exist. Besides, we can't determine what's in a guy's head by looking at box scores. Frankly, I'm like Tevya. "On the other hand. On the other hand." I don't know whether Jackson was in on it. And it would be nice if we could dig up some evidence that would resolve the matter one way or another. But I do know what the judgement of history is.

This tawdry episode could have ended baseball. But the Yankees acquired a former pitcher from Boston who clubbed 54 homers, drove in 137 runs and batted .376 in 1920. In 1921 this same former pitcher smacked 59 homers, drove in 171 runs and hit .378. In the process, he saved baseball and changed it forever.
 
Last edited:
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

I'm thinking reviewing boxscores from nearly a century ago is useless in determining whether or not Jackson was in on it. We're not like Studds Terkel, circling "suspicious" plays on our scorecards. We weren't there. No films exist. Besides, we can't determine what's in a guy's head by looking at box scores. Frankly, I'm like Tevya. "On the other hand. On the other hand." I don't know whether Jackson was in on it. And it would be nice if we could dig up some evidence that would resolve the matter one way or another. But I do know what the judgement of history is.
The judgment of history is very mixed, though the in the formal legal proceeding, Jackson was acquitted, so you're right that that should carry some weight. Landis was looking to make an example (and reasonably so), and he threw the book at all the players in question, regardless of individual circumstances (though as noted before, Comiskey and others weren't called to task as they should have been). Unlike Comiskey though, Jackson had no lawyer looking out for him. Rather, Comiskey had his lawyer mislead Jackson into thinking he represented Jackson also. If this happened today, I don't see any way Jackson goes down the way he did.
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

The judgment of history is very mixed, though the in the formal legal proceeding, Jackson was acquitted, so you're right that that should carry some weight. Landis was looking to make an example (and reasonably so), and he threw the book at all the players in question, regardless of individual circumstances (though as noted before, Comiskey and others weren't called to task as they should have been). Unlike Comiskey though, Jackson had no lawyer looking out for him. Rather, Comiskey had his lawyer mislead Jackson into thinking he represented Jackson also. If this happened today, I don't see any way Jackson goes down the way he did.

Legal niggling aside, Jackson stands guilty of cheating, until otherwise proven innocent. That's the judgement of history. No credible evidence exists to absolutely exonerate him, notwithstanding the strenuous efforts of presumably sincere types who have been trying for nearly a century.

I made no mention of the "formal legal proceeding" and expressed no conclusions about it. And whether it "should carry some weight." I would rather you'd respond to what I actually say.
 
Last edited:
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

IIRC, Burn's movie "Baseball" discussed the 1919 WS. Christy Mathewson and one other were watching the games and knew something was up by the "distracted" play of the CWS. Also, I believe one game was played "straight" because the payoffs were not getting to the players and the CWS won, and that in the final game, a Luca Brasi type knocked on the CWS starting pitcher's hotel door and let him know that the game was to go the Reds' way or the pitcher's family would be harmed.

IIRC, in the Teapot Dome scandal, one person was acquitted of giving a bribe that the other was convicted of receiving (or the other way around). Guess the juries were funny back then, too.
 
The judgment of history is very mixed, though the in the formal legal proceeding, Jackson was acquitted, so you're right that that should carry some weight. Landis was looking to make an example (and reasonably so), and he threw the book at all the players in question, regardless of individual circumstances (though as noted before, Comiskey and others weren't called to task as they should have been). Unlike Comiskey though, Jackson had no lawyer looking out for him. Rather, Comiskey had his lawyer mislead Jackson into thinking he represented Jackson also. If this happened today, I don't see any way Jackson goes down the way he did.

Bob this makes no sense. He took 5 grand. What exactly did he think that was for, a sensual massage? His grand jury testimony is ****ing, and at some point he can't hide behind the "oh I'm stupid" claim. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for him. ;) Also, show me any record of where he went to Commiskey? Why would Commiskey sit on info that his team was throwing the WS out from under his nose?

Shoeless Joe Jackson took money. His grand jury testimony admits to dogging it when it mattered. He even complained about only getting five grand. What else do you need?

If I pay you 5 grand to off Old Pio, and you take the money and then he croaks while you guys are hanging out after the John Birch Society get together, you don't think you've brought suspicion on yourself? Here's a newsflash: don't take the money. He did, so he's screwed.
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

I'm thinking reviewing boxscores from nearly a century ago is useless in determining whether or not Jackson was in on it. We're not like Studds Terkel, circling "suspicious" plays on our scorecards. We weren't there. No films exist. Besides, we can't determine what's in a guy's head by looking at box scores. Frankly, I'm like Tevya. "On the other hand. On the other hand." I don't know whether Jackson was in on it. And it would be nice if we could dig up some evidence that would resolve the matter one way or another. But I do know what the judgement of history is.

This tawdry episode could have ended baseball. But the Yankees acquired a former pitcher from Boston who clubbed 54 homers, drove in 137 runs and batted .376 in 1920. In 1921 this same former pitcher smacked 59 homers, drove in 171 runs and hit .378. In the process, he saved baseball and changed it forever.

Call me crazy, but when that sneaky fella stopped at second after hitting the ball over the fence, I had to start questioning things...
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Legal niggling aside, Jackson stands guilty of cheating, until otherwise proven innocent. That's the judgement of history. No credible evidence exists to absolutely exonerate him, notwithstanding the strenuous efforts of presumably sincere types who have been trying for nearly a century.

I made no mention of the "formal legal proceeding" and expressed no conclusions about it. And whether it "should carry some weight." I would rather you'd respond to what I actually say.
The court found him innocent, not guilty, so I beg to differ. I assumed weight of history referred to the actual court proceeding on this matter. In which Jackson was found innocent. I stand corrected that you are apparently referring to other things that the actual court case in the matter. There are certainly murky things related to Jackson's participation that will never be 100 percent know or proved either way. But there are also certainly many extenuating circumstances related to Jackson that cast significant doubt over whether he was guilty in the way others of the Black Sox were (Weaver being the other that one could argue got shafted).
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Bob this makes no sense. He took 5 grand. What exactly did he think that was for, a sensual massage? His grand jury testimony is ****ing, and at some point he can't hide behind the "oh I'm stupid" claim. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for him. ;) Also, show me any record of where he went to Commiskey? Why would Commiskey sit on info that his team was throwing the WS out from under his nose?

Shoeless Joe Jackson took money. His grand jury testimony admits to dogging it when it mattered. He even complained about only getting five grand. What else do you need?

If I pay you 5 grand to off Old Pio, and you take the money and then he croaks while you guys are hanging out after the John Birch Society get together, you don't think you've brought suspicion on yourself? Here's a newsflash: don't take the money. He did, so he's screwed.
When Williams brought him the money he said he didn't want it, and Williams left it on the floor. He then took it to Comiskey to give it to him and Comiskey avoided him. Hardly the actions of someone in it for the money. It's worth it to take the time to read about this and get past the surface perceptions that are often bandied about.
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

The court found him innocent, not guilty, so I beg to differ. I assumed weight of history referred to the actual court proceeding on this matter. In which Jackson was found innocent. I stand corrected that you are apparently referring to other things that the actual court case in the matter. There are certainly murky things related to Jackson's participation that will never be 100 percent know or proved either way. But there are also certainly many extenuating circumstances related to Jackson that cast significant doubt over whether he was guilty in the way others of the Black Sox were (Weaver being the other that one could argue got shafted).

I've said I don't know for certain whether Jackson was guilty or not. Evidently that's insufficient for you. You're going to have to live with it.
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

I've said I don't know for certain whether Jackson was guilty or not. Evidently that's insufficient for you. You're going to have to live with it.
Just sayin that the court of law found him innocent, which at least in most discussions would carry some weight. If it doesn't with you in this particular case for whatever reason, that's up to you obviously.


Landis was very heavy-handed and rather indiscriminate in how he threw around suspensions and bans. John McGraw doesn't report Heinie Zimmerman for fixing, yet John McGraw receives no sanction. The cases of inconsistent and indiscriminate enforcement abound during Landis' tenure.
 
Last edited:
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Just sayin that the court of law found him innocent, which at least in most discussions would carry some weight. If it doesn't with you in this particular case for whatever reason, that's up to you obviously.

Help me remember, did a jury find OJ "not guilty." And was he?
 
When Williams brought him the money he said he didn't want it, and Williams left it on the floor. He then took it to Comiskey to give it to him and Comiskey avoided him. Hardly the actions of someone in it for the money. It's worth it to take the time to read about this and get past the surface perceptions that are often bandied about.

Do you have any proof of this? By that I don't mean video, but maybe a court deposition or grand jury testimony? IF this is true, what did he end up doing with the 5K? Did the cleaning lady end up with it? What is the source of all this info? Jackson himself?
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Help me remember, did a jury find OJ "not guilty." And was he?
Which has oh so much to do with Shoeless Joe Jackson's case. :rolleyes:

In one situation you have a rich guy hiring a pile of lawyers to get him off. In the other situation you have an illiterate guy misleadingly represented by a team owner's lawyer who sold him down the river by all accounts.
 
Last edited:
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Do you have any proof of this? By that I don't mean video, but maybe a court deposition or grand jury testimony? IF this is true, what did he end up doing with the 5K? Did the cleaning lady end up with it? What is the source of all this info? Jackson himself?
As I said before, I suggest taking some time to read up on the case. It's quite fascinating really.
 
As I said before, I suggest taking some time to read up on the case. It's quite fascinating really.

Bob, I HAVE read up on the case, and I've never come across this "giving the money back to Comiskey". It doesn't pass the smell test, as again why would Comiskey sit back and watch his team tank the WS, but if it did happen, some reference to the point would be nice.

BTW - I'm not basing my reading of the event on "Eight Men Out" before you go there....
 
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

As I said before, I suggest taking some time to read up on the case. It's quite fascinating really.

Next we can dig into whether or not Eric Spehl put an incindiary device in the Hindenburg. And who was shooting from the grassy knoll. You've made up your mind. And you might be right. On the other hand, you might simply have been convinced by "historians" who have an ax to grind. You've referred repeatedly to a Cook County court case, which in your view is dispositive as to Jackson's "innocence." Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, for the umpteenth time, I'm not convinced.

-30-
 
Last edited:
Re: Cooperstown 2013 - who's in?

Next we can dig into whether or not Eric Spehl put an incindiary device in the Hindenburg. And who was shooting from the grassy knoll. You've made up your mind. And you might be right. On the other hand, you might simply have been convinced by "historians" who have an ax to grind. You've referred repeatedly to a Cook County court case, which in your view is dispositive as to Jackson's "innocence." Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, for the umpteenth time, I'm not convinced.

-30-
Sorry I suggested learning about stuff. Very un-American.
 
Back
Top