College Football Players---Students or Employees?

[Slap Shot]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Then how do you respond to the fact that players at Northwestern were unable to take classes for their desired major (and subsequently had to take less demanding majors due to the crazy amount of hours they had to put in) without losing their scholarship?

Not only do I doubt this actually happened or at least that it was systemic, but even if it did they could quit football or transfer. Again - no one is forcing them to play football.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Not only do I doubt this actually happened or at least that it was systemic, but even if it did they could quit football or transfer. Again - no one is forcing them to play football.

And if they quit football do you think the University would still honor the scholarship?

The whole "nobody is forcing them to" argument is a joke. It's the same thing people used to say to employees who were racially discriminated against. Hey, you're choosing to keep working there...suck it up

 

[duper]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

A not-really related article from SI from 1954 about why the University of Chicago dropped football in 1939. The Maroons were in the Big 10, and the very first winner of the award that was later renamed the Heisman Trophy was a Maroon. Ultimately, they made the decision that big-time football and big-time education didn't mix. I wonder if it isn't time for some other schools to reach a similar conclusion.

 

[Slap Shot]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

And if they quit football do you think the University would still honor the scholarship?

The whole "nobody is forcing them to" argument is a joke. It's the same thing people used to say to employees who were racially discriminated against. Hey, you're choosing to keep working there...suck it up

No, it's not the same thing. At all.

 

[mookie1995]

The whole "nobody is forcing them to" argument is a joke. It's the same thing people used to say to employees who were racially discriminated against. Hey, you're choosing to keep working there...suck it up

spot-f'i n g-on!!

 

[CLS]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

A not-really related article from SI from 1954 about why the University of Chicago dropped football in 1939. The Maroons were in the Big 10, and the very first winner of the award that was later renamed the Heisman Trophy was a Maroon. Ultimately, they made the decision that big-time football and big-time education didn't mix. I wonder if it isn't time for some other schools to reach a similar conclusion.

Probably better, more current, and even hockey-related examples are BU (1997) and Northeastern (2009).

It's clear football is that bad boy on the college sports scene. It's a Title IX nightmare, a scholarship hog (85 schollies, I think), and the biggest impediment to improving graduation rates. The season's over sometime between November and February, and there's little incentive for the non-academically serious football players to even make an attempt at acting like students once the season's over.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

First, you should read the NLRB decision and see the evidence used to come to that determination. It's pretty clear that what happened to Colter happened to others, and people testified as such under oath. In our Sports Law class, Professor Brandt (Andrew Brandt...former VP for the Packers and ESPN commentator) brought in some of the football players from Villanova. They essentially said this was rampant there, and rampant pretty much everywhere they had seen. But go ahead, turn a blind eye to it...

As for Colter, he was pre-med, and couldn't take the classes that he needed without it conflicting with practice. Had he missed practice (or portions of practice), he would have lost his scholarship. It's not that difficult to see...unless you don't want to see it. Of course, you're extremely biased against Colter (think he's lying when he has no reason to do so...he won't be the one who benefits from this movement), so I'm sure you'll find some other excuse.

Second, who cares about Minnesota? They are a public school and there will be no unionization of players at public schools anytime soon (barring significant legislation that will never happen). It's a completely different situation than Northwestern. As for those players taking difficult majors, I'd be curious to see if they are scholarship players, and, if so, if they graduate with those degrees.

I still call bulls*t on this not being able to take classes. I worked three jobs in college sophomore year and two all of the other years and still found a way to get my two degrees (chemical engineering and chemistry) in four years (it would have been three if I didn't get bad advice from a "guidance counselor") from a school known for the extremely rigorous chemical engineering program.

 

[dxmnkd316]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

And if they quit football do you think the University would still honor the scholarship?

No, and they shouldn't. I wish I had the time to take golf classes, sleep in on the weekends, drink myself stupid at least four times a week, and still get my degree. I chose the degree. Life is full of tough choices. Suck it up and wear a cup.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Unionization is like the BTHC, it is the worth possible solution to the problems the NCAA is facing. The BTHC caused the conference realignment that was desperately needed to the detriment of everynes feelings. There were better ways to go about it just like there are other ways for the athletes to get better health care.

You'll rarely hear me say anything nice about a union, so write down the date.

Most anti-union screeds start out with, "I mean, they had their time and place and there was a reason for them back then, but..." Well, for minor league football players, that time and place is now. They are woefully underpaid and have unfair labor restrictions forced on them while their fat cat monopolistic employers get rich off their labors - a textbook case that is crying out FOR a union.

 

[bigmrg74]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Probably better, more current, and even hockey-related examples are BU (1997) and Northeastern (2009).

It's clear football is that bad boy on the college sports scene. It's a Title IX nightmare, a scholarship hog (85 schollies, I think), and the biggest impediment to improving graduation rates. The season's over sometime between November and February, and there's little incentive for the non-academically serious football players to even make an attempt at acting like students once the season's over.

85 full scholarships at the D1-A programs.
63 partial scholarships at the D1-AA level, where those guys would get part of the scholarship covered, from like a half to maybe a full ride.
36 partial scholarships at the D2 level, guys here are lucky to get a quarter to a half of their college covered for the year.
And then there's D3, where there's no scholarships.

Seems to me that the best course for the NCAA right now is to get their collective heads out of their *** and figure out a way to make sure players are taken care of long term for whatever sort of injuries that the players might develop during their time they're performing for their school. And it probably should even include something for the walk-on's as well. And while they're at it, they better make sure that the system works for all of their other athletes, from the bowling team to the swim team. I'm no expert on that sort of thing, but I would have to think that other sport athletes would have better odds of not being catastrophically injured during their time on college and oh say for the 10 years after college.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Health care coverage for injuries/problems that may have developed during the years a player played at a college seems like it could be a pretty major and undefined financial commitment for decades to come. I'm not saying it's an unreasonable thing to want if you're a player. But for programs that don't spew out cash, this could make football a much less financially attractive sport to have around, especially at the D2 and D3 levels where the revenue is much smaller, but the healthcare commitments would be pretty much the same. An injury at D2 is pretty much like an injury at D1 (yes, D1 is faster/bigger so there could be a little difference?).

 

[LynahFan]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Health care coverage for injuries/problems that may have developed during the years a player played at a college seems like it could be a pretty major and undefined financial commitment for decades to come. I'm not saying it's an unreasonable thing to want if you're a player. But for programs that don't spew out cash, this could make football a much less financially attractive sport to have around, especially at the D2 and D3 levels where the revenue is much smaller, but the healthcare commitments would be pretty much the same. An injury at D2 is pretty much like an injury at D1 (yes, D1 is faster/bigger so there could be a little difference?).

D2 and D3 players are not likely to be considered employees, though. The school can ask you to waive your rights to healthcare/workers' comp if you're just a student participating in an extracurricular activity, but employers really can't do the same to their employees.

 

[Bob Gray]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

D2 and D3 players are not likely to be considered employees, though. The school can ask you to waive your rights to healthcare/workers' comp if you're just a student participating in an extracurricular activity, but employers really can't do the same to their employees.

Agreed. But I think if this thing happens, it's really hard to know what ripples it will send out. I wouldn't assume at this point that anyone is going to be exempt. If health problems from college football should be paid for by the colleges, such reasoning would seem to apply at all division levels, even if at this time the D2/D3 players don't seem like they'd fall under the definition of employees. Sounds like the kind of stuff lawyers get rich off of.

 

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

D2 and D3 players are not likely to be considered employees, though. The school can ask you to waive your rights to healthcare/workers' comp if you're just a student participating in an extracurricular activity, but employers really can't do the same to their employees.

Agreed. I think people see that Northwestern might be able to unionize in football, and think that all of college football (and perhaps even other sports) will be able to unionize. That simply isn't how this process works.

 

[LynahFan]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Sounds like the kind of stuff lawyers get rich off of.

Got that right. It will be so refreshing to see all that money diverted out of the pockets of the ADs and coaches and into the hands of the money grubbing lawyers where it belongs.

 

[duper]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

It seems clear to me that the real solution is to actually have minor league football. Actual professional leagues designed to develop young players to prepare them for the NFL, the way most team sports have. Then college football could be treated similarly to college hockey or college baseball, where a few players get a full ride, and some others get a partial, and some guys' families pay for their education. This might even solve some Title IX problems.

Of course, it obviously won't happen...

 

[Jimjamesak]

It seems clear to me that the real solution is to actually have minor league football. Actual professional leagues designed to develop young players to prepare them for the NFL, the way most team sports have. Then college football could be treated similarly to college hockey or college baseball, where a few players get a full ride, and some others get a partial, and some guys' families pay for their education. This might even solve some Title IX problems.

Of course, it obviously won't happen...

Yes that could happen, but that would require NFL owners investing money instead lining their pockets.

 

[duper]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

Yes that could happen, but that would require NFL owners investing money instead lining their pockets.

Which, of course...

 

[FreshFish]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

It seems clear to me that the real solution is to actually have minor league football. Actual professional leagues designed to develop young players to prepare them for the NFL, the way most team sports have. Then college football could be treated similarly to college hockey or college baseball, where a few players get a full ride, and some others get a partial, and some guys' families pay for their education. This might even solve some Title IX problems.

Of course, it obviously won't happen...

i wonder if not-for-profit entities can have for-profit subsidiaries?

Have all the football players get reclassified as majoring in "professional sports developmental program" or some such thing, then have the football programs become the minor leagues. Minimal disruption of facilities, major tax headache though for the colleges.

 

[bigblue_dl]

Re: College Football Players---Students or Employees?

i wonder if not-for-profit entities can have for-profit subsidiaries?

Have all the football players get reclassified as majoring in "professional sports developmental program" or some such thing, then have the football programs become the minor leagues. Minimal disruption of facilities, major tax headache though for the colleges.

You're starting to sound like osorojo, and that is not a compliment. He has been known to propose the same kind of stuff for NCAA hockey.